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M1908
11-17-2009, 06:24 AM
Hello newbie here but have been lurking for awhile now so I thought it’s time to come out. I bought a M.S. M1908 in the rimless 8x56 a year ago and have been trying to collect some data on it so I could start reloading. The only info I could find is an article that I found by Ken Waters that he done up several years ago and it has some good information and load data. I’m curious to see here if anybody has any experience on the round. What type of powders, bullets, loads and above all what brass can be used. Any info will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

M1908

darwin mauser
11-18-2009, 05:18 PM
To make cases for the 8 x 56 The best parent case would be the 8 x 57 ,I assume you would just have to knock back the shoulder a little and trim to length ,you would need to be a bit careful of your cartridges overall length ,there isn't much room in the magazine of a 1908, loading data is not plentiful as you have noticed but it's not that different from the 8 x 57,you would just have to make your starting loads a little bit more conservative.

llsierra
11-19-2009, 10:00 AM
The Ken Waters article is as good or better than what is available in the open. In the Mannlicher Collectors Association we have been working on accumulating reload data for years, Ken just published much of it. The 8x56mm brass is easily made from 8x57mm Mauser cases, I've found Winchester and Norma brands to be the best donors. Good mechanical measurement data is available in "Cartridges of the World". I started reloading the 8x56mm in 1972, generating my data via an old Powley Computer, and it worked. Best indicated powder for the round back then was H-414, followed by IMR-3031. There are several better options today, such as RL-15, AA2485, and N150. Good Winchester brand ammunition is still available at gun shows and online, in the old red, yellow, and blue boxes, some people just believe it is worth it's weight in gold, which is not true if the ammo can be made from other components.

Overall, the 8x56mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer round might be considered a "super .30-30 WCF", as it was designed for the deer class game of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire. Those old Austrians felt that you did not have to leave their empire to find good hunting, of course, you had to be part of the wealthy class too.

LLS

JimP1
11-23-2009, 05:10 PM
The article by Ken Waters (Handloader 175, June-July 1995) is the only information I have been able to find for reloadng the 8x56MS. I am curently using his data with RL-15 and the 175gr. bullet.
I agree the 8x57 Mauser is probably the best choice for a parent case.
However, there is the potential for a problem with base diameter. In theory, the base of an 8x57 Mauser is .470 inch and the base of an 8x56MS is .465 inch. I find that new Mauser brass runs a little small and the chamber of one carbine will readily accept them with only a little push back on the shoulder and trimming to length. Another MS carbine requires me to swage the base of new brass in order to chamber.
If your brass is difficult to chamber, you may ned a base swaging die.

M1908
11-23-2009, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the replies gentlemen! The only dilemma I have left to resolve are the sights. My intensions is to use this rifle for deer hunting but with most of the hunting being done either in the early morning or late evening the rifle with it’s open sights will be difficult if not impossible to see. I would love to put a scope on the rifle but mounts cost just as much as the rifle. What are your thoughts?

M1908

kkfb2b
11-24-2009, 09:22 AM
Thanks for the replies gentlemen! The only dilemma I have left to resolve are the sights. My intensions is to use this rifle for deer hunting but with most of the hunting being done either in the early morning or late evening the rifle with it’s open sights will be difficult if not impossible to see. I would love to put a scope on the rifle but mounts cost just as much as the rifle. What are your thoughts?

M1908

I can field that one!

Scoping the Mannlicher split-bridge type rifle is not cheap, and if you do not do it right, you will absolutely kill any value the gun currently has. That said, here are your options:
Iron sights - Lyman and a few other made a peep sight for this that swung out of the way when the bolt was manipulated. Expect to pay about $180, give or take, for the sight less mounting cost
Scope mounts - Assuming that it does not already have mounts, here is what you can do in ascending order of cost:
Williams side mount. This a very underrated mount that is super nice - I have one on one of my guns. Cost for the mount/rings is about $100 and the installation is about another $80 or so, I would think - it is whatever the 'smitty charges to mount and mortise the stock to accept. Not a bad choice, though
Watts walnut/Redfield mount - this is a very nice base-less-rings setup that runs about $165 (Google it), and will require that the 'smitty alter the mount, the bolt handle, or both to get clearance, so again you are at the $200 plus mark after mounting (not correct for this gun)
B&L Mount - this is OK, but is seriously not correct for the gun. i have one and am not impressed, and you will pay out the nose for the scope & rings to fit.
Pachmyar swing over mount - I have one and love it! One just sold on Flea-Bay for $125 or so I think, plus you are going to have to pay installation fee. Seriously not the correct mount for the gun
Griffen and Howe - expect o pay about $600+ for the mount and the install, and you have to provide the scope to used so they get it right. Good setup but very rich for my blood.
New England Custom Gun - Easily $1000+, so I never got past that part of the deal.

Experimental: I have been trying to fit a Weaver side mount setup for the '96 Mauser to a 1903 Sporterized Greek gun, and it is going tot take some work, and I do know how successful I will be, so I may got the Willaims route. I also considered and accumount.com mount made the Mauser, but that is pretty pricey when said and done, much more so than the Williams option
Turnbull dot sight. Turnbull guns makes a dotsight mount base that replaces the rear sight dovetail slot. That is a good option that does not involve cutting into the metal, but I do not think it to be any cheaper overall than the options presented above.

Hope this helps!

M1908
11-24-2009, 11:37 AM
I can field that one!

Scoping the Mannlicher split-bridge type rifle is not cheap, and if you do not do it right, you will absolutely kill any value the gun currently has. That said, here are your options:
Iron sights - Lyman and a few other made a peep sight for this that swung out of the way when the bolt was manipulated. Expect to pay about $180, give or take, for the sight less mounting cost
Scope mounts - Assuming that it does not already have mounts, here is what you can do in ascending order of cost:
Williams side mount. This a very underrated mount that is super nice - I have one on one of my guns. Cost for the mount/rings is about $100 and the installation is about another $80 or so, I would think - it is whatever the 'smitty charges to mount and mortise the stock to accept. Not a bad choice, though
Watts walnut/Redfield mount - this is a very nice base-less-rings setup that runs about $165 (Google it), and will require that the 'smitty alter the mount, the bolt handle, or both to get clearance, so again you are at the $200 plus mark after mounting (not correct for this gun)
B&L Mount - this is OK, but is seriously not correct for the gun. i have one and am not impressed, and you will pay out the nose for the scope & rings to fit.
Pachmyar swing over mount - I have one and love it! One just sold on Flea-Bay for $125 or so I think, plus you are going to have to pay installation fee. Seriously not the correct mount for the gun
Griffen and Howe - expect o pay about $600+ for the mount and the install, and you have to provide the scope to used so they get it right. Good setup but very rich for my blood.
New England Custom Gun - Easily $1000+, so I never got past that part of the deal.

Experimental: I have been trying to fit a Weaver side mount setup for the '96 Mauser to a 1903 Sporterized Greek gun, and it is going tot take some work, and I do know how successful I will be, so I may got the Willaims route. I also considered and accumount.com mount made the Mauser, but that is pretty pricey when said and done, much more so than the Williams option
Turnbull dot sight. Turnbull guns makes a dotsight mount base that replaces the rear sight dovetail slot. That is a good option that does not involve cutting into the metal, but I do not think it to be any cheaper overall than the options presented above.

Hope this helps!

On Ebay there is a guy who makes them for the older and new Mannlicher for $165.00. Is this the same person or is it someone else?

M1908

kkfb2b
11-24-2009, 03:45 PM
that is watts walnut, and it isa good system, but like I say, you have two issues - you are going to have to slightly alter the mount, the bolt or both, and you are going to seriously kill the value if you go that route. Hang on, I will try to find the link

kkfb2b
11-24-2009, 03:50 PM
http://msbases.wattswalnut.com/

I have these ona 1956 FS in 243 and it is a very good setup, but see how it mentions that it may require slight alteration to work with the Greek Military 1903 action? the 1908 is very near the same action as to lenth and position of the bolt.

this mount setup is made for the post WW2/1950-onwards guns. It will fir without alteration tot he exiting screwholes on the 1961 MCA guns. hang on I wil give you another link for something that will work well with this

kkfb2b
11-24-2009, 03:55 PM
go to this link
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/gunsights/gunsightsdefault.htm
and download the comapny brochure. I think on P.56, if memory serves me correctly, thy have the side mount. brownells did have the HCO rings, or call them. the total for the setup is going to be about $100...not much more than you would pay for a really good setup for a standard botl gun...and these are neatly removeable! They can also fit or your 'smitty will do it. I have this on a '52 half stock sporter in 30-06 and love it - it allows easier access to load/unload the gun than the Watts Walnut set that you refer to.

gotta go - last post of the day - good luck!

kkfb2b
11-24-2009, 04:00 PM
ok - one more - here is a too high gun with the Williams unit

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=26508

M1908
11-24-2009, 06:46 PM
kkfb2b... Thanks for all your help on the sights :D!!! I'm still little nervous putting a scope on the rifle but it just begs for one and to see what it can do beyond 100 yards or so. I'm leaning towards to the Williams side mount but not until I fired some custom loads through it. I have a feeling she's a shooter the bore is spotless like it has never been fired. Just have to wait and see. Thanks Again!

M1908

pudlich
10-27-2010, 11:51 PM
Hello,
new here and found You while looking for some load data for my 8x56 rimless with the 175 gr. Hornady RN.

There should be no other scope fitting on an original Mannlicher-Schoenauer than the traditional handmade "Suhler Einhak-Montage".
In Germany it costs between 700 an 1000 . There is a specialist for that fitting in Austria, the link is http://www.eschoder.com/
Here You can find all the parts You need for Your Schoenauer.

Bob

365972 (http://www.imgbox.de/users/public/images/vxPfEQpd9t.jpg)
365971 (http://www.imgbox.de/users/public/images/d8TzuNHWRB.jpg)

starmetal
10-28-2010, 08:44 AM
My dads best friend had that rifle liberated from his WWII tour. Some German gunsmith put the typical scope mounts on it used back them which had the bases dovetailed to front receiver and forget how the rear was. I made him cases from 8x57 Mauser but his rifle had a tight chamber and we had to swage the heads. We just used 8x57 Mauser loading data conservatively. I see no reason why you can't as the Mannlicher action has large strong bolt lugs and the left side one is not split as in the Mauser for the ejector to ride through.

I have a G98/43 JHV that has been fully sporterized (sic) with a custom stock and have been thinking about scope it and I have been looking at the Weaver side mount. Funny nobody so far has mentioned that.

Peconga
10-30-2010, 02:24 PM
Having owned dozens of Mannlicher Schoenauers over the years, I strongly urge you DO NOT under any circumstances ruin your rifle with a cheap side scope mount like a Williams, Weaver, Bausch & Lomb, or Pachmayr just to save a few dollars. What you "save" up-front will cost you dearly when it comes time to sell the rifle, and cost you even more from the ongoing shame and embarrassment of having defaced a highly desirable vintage rifle.

In fact, if your Mannicher Schoenauer is a "virgin", I strongly recommend that you forget putting a scope on it entirely, since there are plenty of them around that have already been modified with scope mounts of various kinds, and there is no reason to ruin yet another one by drilling holes in the receiver. If you really want a M1908 with a scope for hunting purposes, it is far better and more economical to find one that has already been modified, and sell yours to a collector. (I'd even trade you one of mine that is alreay drilled and tapped, if it means saving yours).

If you absolutely must put a modern scope on your M1908, at least look for a quality mount like a Jaeger, Griffin & Howe, or a vintage German side mount, any of which can be found used for well under $300 (no sane person pays G&H or NECG list prices). Although a solid design, the Redfield two-piece mount will either require a bolt modification or very high rings on a M1908, as well as leave holes in the front receiver ring and rear bridge which further devalues the rifle. As pointed out, the most period-correct outfit would be a Suhl-type (German) "Einhak-Montage" (claw-mount) or an original Springer (aka Wiener or Austrian) "Schnpper-Montage" (snap-mount). However, these are expensive and hard to find in the States.

Fitting your Mannlicher Schoenauer with a peep sight is another option to help with low-light hunting. However, the same caveats apply in that any non-original modifications that require drilling holes in the receiver (like a Lyman #57, or equivalent Redfield or Williams) will quickly ruin the rifle's collector value. The Lyman #36 swing sight is a period-correct option (which fits over the bolt stop) but still requires cutting a relief slot in the stock, so is not an irreversible modification. They are also very rare and expensive, and fragile to boot. About the only peep sight that does not require irreversible modifications is the Lyman #1 or Parker-Hale equivalent, which fits on the end of the cocking piece. These are also hard to find and have their own drawbacks (slower lock time for instance), but are functional and have the virtue of being a reversible modification.

As for loading the M-S 8x56 cartridge, the biggest thing to watch for is OAL (over-all length). Spitzers are out of the question, and some heavier bullets have to be seated well back to avoid hanging or damage to the tips. Loading data depends on your choice of powder, but a conservative 8x57 Mauser load is usually a good starting point. Although I prefer to use factory RWS 8x56 brass with mine, at least a couple M1908s that I've owned over the years would actually chamber factory 8x57 Mauser brass without modification so this is worth checking before investing in 8x56 dies.

Cheers,
Peconga in Boise

Carcano
10-30-2010, 04:42 PM
As pointed out, the most period-correct outfit would be a Suhl-type (German) "Haken-Montage" (claw-mount) or an original Springer (aka Wiener or Austrian) "Klappen-Montage" (snap-mount). However, these are expensive and hard to find in the States.

Please use the correct German terms. Both of yours are made up. The first is Suhler Einhak-Montage ("Hakenmontage" is *so* funny), and the second is Wiener Schnpper-Montage.

Carcano

Peconga
10-31-2010, 12:34 AM
Please use the correct German terms. Both of yours are made up. The first is Suhler Einhak-Montage ("Hakenmontage" is *so* funny), and the second is Wiener Schnpper-Montage.

Carcano

Selbstverstandlich! Falsche Buchstabierung wird auf diesem Forum nicht geduldet!

ktr
10-31-2010, 09:20 AM
I have a 1908 M/S. Bought it cheap as someone hacked the full length stock off to just in front of the front clevis swivel at one time and left it at that. At least they appear to have taken the wood off the metal to make the cut and didn't scar the barrel. I took it one step further and cut it just behind that swivel, forming a new schnable tip and used the old swivel barrel boss for a mount base. A new swivel sits on it now forward of the tip. A 1/2 stock carbine results.

I make ammo from 8mm Mauser brass. The chamber dim. on this one are tight enough that it demands that the base of the brass be reduced a few .000" so that they chamber.
I recently bought a NOS set of RCBC dies in 8mmM/S for $50. But till then was loading perfectly good ammo with 8mmMauser dies, a thinned shell holder and a 32acp seater die body(for neck sizing),,all stuff I had around the shop..

I've been using the data from the Handloader article.
It came with 2 boxes of old Western brand ammo but I've just set that aside for lookin'. Probably worth more to sell than to shoot up.
I'll post some pics of the carbine later.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mburcke/scribbler/ms08.JPG

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mburcke/scribbler/ms084.JPG
Old piece of forend shows where it was cut by a past owner forward of the swivel. Then I cut it behind it and added a new schnable tip

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mburcke/scribbler/ms085.JPG
Not much room inside! Factory routed out cuts inside forend. I cut it back as far as I could and still allow a new tip to be shaped.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mburcke/scribbler/ms083.JPG
Completed shape

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mburcke/scribbler/ms082.JPG
Still needed a bit of finish added in this pic but eccentially all done. Had gone hunting at this point and taken a whitetail already, but not by my hand.
Might get around to checkering the forend if I ever get the thing back from my hunter Brother!