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View Full Version : Shooting the Vetterli-Vitali 6,5mm Conversions...



Carcano
09-20-2007, 02:45 PM
The many postings to this much-disputed and controversial subject will be in time be united into one article, possibly a future sticky...

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jonk
Posted - 09/11/2003 : 4:05:13 PM
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140gr .265 cast lead bullet, Gas check, lee liquid alox, PRVI cases, 50y, 10gr Red Dot... and half the bullets keyholed. Excellent bore. I have also tried 14gr 2400 w/ similar results. No leading, just isn't stabilizing. The low velocity produced by the light pistol powder loads might be to blame. I'll try some very hard cast bullets (maybe pure linotype) and carefully pushing up charges with fast or medium rifle powders, using the textbook 6.5X52 start as my max. Not something I want to shoot all the time, just like to know what the gun COULD do if I wanted to.

Incidentally, no headspace worries yet. No streching going on that I can see, though I don't have the gauges. All full length sized brass that chambers perfectly in the Carcanos chambers quite snugly in the Vetterli. But then the low loads I'm using wouldn't cause trouble anyhow, I doubt they are pushing more than 15,000 psi.



jonk
Posted - 09/16/2003 : 5:11:41 PM
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One more thought. I really do suspect that the gun could handle .264 jacketed loads. A buddy of mine shoots his with the Rem 140gr soft points with quite nice results. I would really hesitate to start messing with the Hornady .268" jobs but with such a long bbl the .264 bullets might just do the trick if I can't get the lead ones going well.

All that said, I really suspect we're babying these guns too much. I have NEVER heard of one letting go even with full power military loads. Marginal strength is still going to be either strong enough or not, and if one neck sizes only, slowly increasing headspace would be a small problem unless drastic. Kind of like the Gew. 88 and .323 bullets. I have heard stories of guys firing full power machine gun ammo through them with the .318 bores with no ill effects. Not smart but the gun is stronger than a lot give credit for. Of course then I could get started on the 03 springfield low serials and strength. Ah well. I'm going to Austria, so any more tests are on hold for about ten months.



Bill Davis
Posted - 10/03/2003 : 7:21:22 PM
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The one thing to remember about Vetterlis' is that they were originally a BLACKPOWDER gun, and their pressures don't even come close to smokeless. That being said, I have, for many years, shot GEW 88's with any kind of ball ammo I could find, and as to strength of actions, read my blow-up test posted above on the 8MM Carcano. I have also heard horror stories about the 1893 Turk in 8MM; strangely enough, NO ONE can seem to locate a case of receiver failure, except for the Spanish .308 conversions. There was a guy in the old Rifleman magazine back in the 60's (Al "Jap" Romberger) who converted 7.35 Carcanos to .308, and I doubt if he rebored them either. I have 93's that will shoot Turk ammo all day, while an all-matching Czech had the bolt freeze up after ONE round. And do you remember the guy who rechambered-NOT rebored-his 6.5 Arisaka to .30-06, took it hunting, killed a deer, and then took it in to find out why it KICKED so hard!



DMinFla
Posted - 10/04/2003 : 10:05:33 PM
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If you are talking about the Italian Vetterli in 6.5 cal i have a friend that had one let go after a few shots i think he still has what is left of it too.DMinFla



Bill Davis
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 12:27:58 AM
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From what I've seen (on all of TWO of them!) the liner/insert-thingy starts to work loose. It backed out on mine & the bolt wouldn't close. I have also heard-on this forum-1 or 2 other "first-hand" accounts of V-V's letting go; at least one resulted in injury to the shooter. I don't hesitate to shoot GEW 88 "S" bores if the headspace checks out, and we DO "baby" these rifles too much, but a "blackpowder-converted-to-smokeless" conversion is one I wouldn't mess with, unless you can keep it down to blackpowder levels. We're talkin' 30,000 PSI in a 12,000 PSI receiver, and as my hillbilly neighbor says, "thet dawg won't HUNT!"



jonk
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 1:18:40 PM
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Hmmmm... I recall seeing a barreled Vetterli action awhile back at a gunshow... if I could find one I would try some torture tests, might even invest in some headspace gauges.



3line
Posted - 10/14/2003 : 11:04:23 PM
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I've got good results with my Vetterli Vitali shooting a .266" diameter" 155 gr cast bullet over 15 gr of 2400. This will shoot about 3" groups at 50 yards. I buy the bullets from Western Bullet Co.

I feel pretty confident in shooting this rifle. The action looks fairly strong, especially compared to the Springfield trapdoor rifle. I understand these did see service in WWI.



PR
Posted - 10/29/2003 : 7:33:05 PM
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Thanks for chiming in DM.I hope ol Jonk is reading because I have blown one up first hand,(still have a scar and a few parts to prove it)I posted at length about it when it happened so I won't go into it again. I'll just say that if you insist on shooting it your an idiot if you don't at least baby it. Nuff said.



mlnorth
Posted - 11/04/2003 : 02:29:12 AM
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PR--your email blows up when I try to respond; if you still have the front sight blade for the V-V conversion that blew up, I'd like to buy it from you to complete a very pretty wall-hanger.



jonk
Posted - 11/04/2003 : 5:12:02 PM
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PR- yes I am reading it. Of course I would baby it at very least. No, I don't plan on shooting it MUCH but would like to see it shoot WELL before hanging it up. But hearing FIRST HAND experience of a failure just might make me think twice.

Tiledude
09-23-2007, 02:42 PM
The 1888 Commission rifle and the Vetterli 6.5 mm conversion are two different rifles.

One is designed for smokeless powder and the other blackpowder.

When I shoot my Vetterli 6.5 mm conversion it is with light lead bullet loads and am quite happy with the results. When I shoot my Gew88 rifles in various bore diameters it is with moderate loads and jacket bullets - .318, .320 and .323

I favor caution when shooting the Vetterli conversion - It is quite enjoyable to shoot with light loads.

What load was used in the blow-up?

Tiledude

tedley2
09-23-2007, 09:14 PM
I once had a Vetterli that I fired with both surplus and Norma ammo. I had no problems.

Carcano
09-27-2007, 07:01 PM
Here is a very concise summary of yore:

DMala
Posted - 02/04/2004 : 11:26:14 AM
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Make a search for the topic of shooting the Vetterli 70/87/16 conversions, it has been discussed very extensively. In a nutshell, everyone agrees that cast lead bullets can be used safely, while some disagreement exists if there is an adequate safety margin with jacketed (.264 commercial or military surplus)bullets. In any case, do not use the new Hornady .268" 160grain bullets, those would definitely be leaving a margin too tight.

Carcano
10-04-2007, 05:57 PM
NebrHogger
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 7:10:39 PM
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Marzon,

I just closely compared the bolts of an 1870/87 and an 1870/87/15; I see no extra lug on the 6.5 nor any other method of adding strength. Due to the metallurgy of the older guns, I plan to shoot only hardcast gas checked bullets with light loads of powder in mine. I just ordered a quantity from Leadheads ( www.proshootpro.com ) and will have a detailed post in 2 or 3 weeks of the accuracy I was able to achieve.

I agree completely that only the most valuable guns should be left unfired, but everything else should at least be tried for its original intended purpose. In addition to the early cartridge milsurps, I have collected Marlin firearms for over 30 years. I have shot the vast majority of them, but only with reduced loads. I believe this would also be prudent in the 1870/87/15. I really would not fire full-throttle military loads in it and would scrupulously avoid the .268 Hornady 160 grainer, as well.

I will post accuracy and chronograph results as soon as they are available. SW



mag
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 12:27:38 AM
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I fire all 5 of mine all the time. I use light handloads with jacketed bullets, none of mine shoot cast very well. Most people do not seem to understand that that the bullet being cast lead or jacketed has nothing to do with pressure. It is the amount of powder that you use with them that does. All mine will shoot in the 2.5 to 4 inch range with 5 shots at 100 yards with light jacketed loads. A good load to start with is the Hornady .264 160 rn with 18.5 of SR-4759 powder. With the normal .268 or so bore the jacketed .264 bullet will let some of the pressure bleed by the bullet where as the lead bullet will swell to fully seal the bore making more pressure. I have shot the same weight jacketed and lead bullets with the same powder charge and the lead bullets go about 100 fps faster = more pressure. mag



NebrHogger
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 07:17:12 AM
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The bullets go about 100 fps faster = lower coefficient of friction.

This very topic has been hotly debated on some other forums with angry words. I strenuously mean to avoid anything like that. The lower friction 'faction' presented the more compelling case, and that is what I believe. To further this debate, cast bullets are most often lubricated, are they not? A lubricated surface will move along another surface more smoothly and with less friction. The pistons of your automobile are another example of this. How smoothly or quickly would they move without lubrication? While the lubrication of the cast bullets is primarily to avoid lead remaining on the steel surface of the barrel, it also facilitates the faster movement of the projectile. Lubrication = smoother movement, and the movement is accomplished with less pressure. Maybe not as much less as some would have you believe, but enough so, that I use cast bullets in my older guns. I have heard of people lightly lubricating jacketed bullets to test this idea, but have not done so myself. SW



mag
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 1:52:03 PM
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The lead bullets also show more pressure on the stress gauge. mag



MOBAM
Posted - 07/22/2004 : 05:05:00 AM
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Try this test: Slug your bore with, first, a lead bullet, then a jacketed one (from the breech, of course). Then decide which one takes more pressure to engrave into the rifling. Peak chamber pressure occurs in the first fraction of an inch of bullet travel.



NebrHogger
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 08:41:07 AM
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I got some gas checked, hard cast bullets and am working on an accurate load. Will post results w/ pics when available. SW



Merle
Posted - 08/11/2004 : 6:55:23 PM
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Being somewhat timid about things made in 1881, plus being fond of my face "as is" I only shoot mine with 4F blackpowder. Since the bore is fairly rough, I also use 160 grain Hornady jacketed bullets. Gives a very satisfying "BOOM", plus a large cloud of smoke. Just be sure to clean the brass, as BP will eat it up too. Merle


Originally posted by Marzon
I have noticed alot of inexpensive Vertellis converted to 6.5 Carcano around these days. I have read that an extra lug was added to the bolt to strengthen the action during the conversion but does anybody actually shoot these things? And if so, has anybody tried it with the Prive Partizan 6.5 ammo (.264 bullet)? One of the few limits I have placed on my collection of milsurps is that I want to actually be able to shoot the guns I acquire and I have alot of the Privi Partizan 6.5 but it shoots like crap from my Carcanos...



NebrHogger
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 5:52:12 PM
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Merle, I use Hodgdon Triple seven in my 1870/87 and have acheived excellent results using an overpowder wad. SW



Merle
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 10:15:12 PM
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Thanx for the tip - I'll have to try that.


Originally posted by NebrHogger
Merle, I use Hodgdon Triple seven in my 1870/87 and have acheived excellent results using an overpowder wad. SW



ebayonetdotcom
Posted - 08/16/2004 : 09:39:39 AM
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FWIW- I have fired my M70/87/15 using original military 6.5x52 ammo and won't do so again. Frederic Vetterli's action design was meant for black powder and fell into disuse when it proved too weak for safe and dependable service with the post-1886 smokeless powders.

As far as strengthening the action by adding another lug to the bolt that is just a myth. If you consider that the bolt has NO LOCKING LUGS it makes the whole myth obvious. The Vetterli action employs a straight pull bolt with only the bolt handle rotating. The locking lugs are part of the bolt handle and not the bolt. It is this rotating handle locking system that makes the rifle a "Vetterli". The original Swiss version was the first to employ this bolt handle locking system. The balance of the Swiss design is actually stolen from Winchester's Model 1866 "Henry" lever action repeating rifle. Put a Henry next to any Swiss Vetterli and you'll see that old Fred V. copied the tubular magazine, carrier, bolt and loading port very closely.

It IS nice to be able to say you've fired everything in your collection at least once and these Vetterli-Carcano conversions are best left on the wall after honor has been satisfied ;-). There are plenty of other inexpensive surplus rifles around with far less potential for firing mishaps. Also be aware that after WWI large numbers of Vetterli-Carcanos were mounted on pedestals and turned into electric lamps by running the wires for the socket up through the barrel. The bolts were often welded shut at the chamber end from underneath where it is not visible. A LOT of the cheap Vetterli-Carcanos I see are actually "lamp guns" that hgave had the weld broken out. These welds were often no more that a "tack weld" but I would still question the effect of even that much heat on the metallurgy of a rifle that old which has alreay undergone major conversion. Otto www.eBAYONET.com


Originally posted by Marzon
I have noticed alot of inexpensive Vertellis converted to 6.5 Carcano around these days. I have read that an extra lug was added to the bolt to strengthen the action during the conversion but does anybody actually shoot these things? And if so, has anybody tried it with the Prive Partizan 6.5 ammo (.264 bullet)? One of the few limits I have placed on my collection of milsurps is that I want to actually be able to shoot the guns I acquire and I have alot of the Privi Partizan 6.5 but it shoots like crap from my Carcanos...

Otto
www.eBAYONET.com



FGD135
Posted - 09/03/2004 : 10:44:15 PM
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I can only agree with Otto! And go one step further. I recommend that you convert your Vetterlis back to lamps...they look great in the gun room or the bar, and you maybe can rig the trigger or bolt as the switch. Cycle the action, turn on the lamp, etc. Best use!



Bill Davis
Posted - 09/09/2004 : 12:20:17 PM
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Someone on this board once posted that he had a V-V come apart on him while firing. Nobody hurt (I don't think) but it just broke in half. I live dangerously-according to some people-by firing GEW 88's with ball ammo (NOT Turk!), and shooting my 8MM Carcano WHEN I can get it to work, but these old Vetterlis are one type of rifle I will NOT shoot with ball ammo. They were designed and proofed for black powder ammo. There. End of two-bit opinion

Carcano
10-07-2007, 03:03 PM
DMala
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 10:23:25 AM
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I do not have any specific memory of accidents with 70/87/16, but a careful approach makes sense because:

- receiver strenght originally designed for black powder loads
- a few reports of loose barrel sleeve
- in the 6.5mm conversions, the bolt head is also frequently soldered to the bolt body.

Smokeless loads with CAST bullets are in my opinion the safest choice. I am not sure if using blackpowder in bottlenecked small volume cases is a good idea. Similarly, loads with .264 jacketed bullets should not be below the minimum recommended in the manuals.



JPS
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 5:41:19 PM
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Yo Gents,

The Model 1870 Vetterli was designed.......you guessed it!.......in 1870, as a black powder single shot. The majority of these rifles were then upgraded to repeaters in 1887 with the Vitali box magazine at which point they became Model 1870/87s. However, they were still in the original chambering of 10.4X47mmR. This is a very low pressure black powder round that approximates the ballistics of the .44 mag revolver firing a heavy lead bullet (NOT the pressure of the .44 mag!).

The conversions that were performed during WWI were a response to an emergency shortage of serviceable small arms in the Italian Army. The Model 70/87/15 (or 16s according to some sources) was issued during WWI to artillery, lines of communication, train, military police and prison guards and other non-combatant units. They were issued to troops that were never expected to fire their small arms other than in a dire emergency. The various models of the Carcano that were originally issued to these same troops were then freed up for issue to front line combat units.

The Vetterlis were understood from the very beginning by the Italian Ordnance Department to be ABSOLUTELY MARGINAL WARTIME EMERGENCY CONVERSIONS. They were not expected to see regular combat duty in the trenches. The barrels are sleeved. When these rifles were originally produced, they were contemporaries of the US Trapdoor Springfield. I don't hear a lot of people advocating shooting modern smokeless loads in a Springfield? Metallurgy in the mid to late 19th Century was not what it was even in the early 20th Century. These were produced out of very soft steel. Take a close look at the small lugs on the back of the bolt. Then look at the lugs on a Carcano.

In addition, many of these rifles were converted by brazing the new bolt head on the old bolt body. I have examples of both types of bolt in my collection. The original bolt face was designed for a case that is near identical to the .348 Winchester (I am not at home or I could give you the original case rim and head diameters).

This subject has been covered countless times on the Forum since it opened in 1995. Over the years, we came up with verified examples of two barrel sleeves shooting loose from the original barrel and ruining the rifle. In addition, we had two people who had the brazed bolt heads separate from the bolt body. These rifles were never specifically designed to direct gas away from the face of the shooter, although I would imagine that a lot of the gas would channel down through the magazine in the case of a pierced primer or separated case head. My biggest concern beyond these two problems would be an eventual headspace problem due to the soft actions gradually stretching over time if fired with full house loads.

I have never heard of a Vetterli completely letting go, however, that does not mean it can't happen. Fire these rifles with full house Carcano loads at your own risk. Common sense and a full understanding of their history would in my opinion, cause an intelligent person to tread lightly. These were marginal conversions undertaken on an emergency basis during the biggest war in History up until that time. I can't see as how the past 90 years has done anything to make them stronger?

Just my $ .02 worth.

Warmest regards,

JPS

Carcano
10-08-2007, 01:35 PM
NebrHogger
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 5:25:24 PM
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I use 129gr hard cast, gas checked bullets from Leadheads. I have tried 8.7 grains Unique for approx. 1425 fps and 19.5 grains 2400 for 2190fps. Neither showed any pressure signs, nor were they hard to extract. Groups were a little over 3" @ 50 yards with both. My 1870/87/15 has a hard trigger. SW

Carcano
10-09-2007, 06:43 PM
Carcano
Posted - 09/14/2005 : 06:30:46 AM
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There are two schools of thought here:

One (exemplified e.g. by Gaetano, JPS and a number of others) thinks that these conversions are not sufficiently safe to shoot, because they were originally designed for blackpowder, the conversion was a wartime expediency measure and never intended for long sustained use, and the barrel liners may on occasion have become faulty.

The other (exemplified by me and a number of posters) opinion feels
- that the VV 70/87/15 is safe enough with Norma loads and surplus, and of course with mild handloads, but not with the hotter Prvi Partizan;
- that headspace should at all means be checked before firing, and then in short intervals (easy check:_ if a 6,5x54 MS cartridge lets the bolt close down, your gun has excessive headspace);
- that one should be *very* careful before trying to handload .268" bullets (some liners are rather tight);
- that proper precaution (sturdy shooting glasses or lab goggles) should be used;
- that surplus ammo is safe enough with regard to pressure levels, but can constitute a risk for rearward gas escape.

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Alexander Eichener
Email: [email protected]
Carcano Website: http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano

Carcano
10-09-2007, 10:04 PM
Peter in CA
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 3:43:55 PM
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Now that I have joined the ranks of WW1 modified Vetterli owners (thanks Don), I have seen how much of the cartridge shows when the rifle is in battery. So I am asking fellow owners/shooters to please share their favorite 6.5 Carcano loads specifically tailored for the Vetterli. I plan on going as light as the loading manuals say (maybe a tad lighter) and I will be using .264 diameter bullets, but I am sure a few of you already have experience with this and are willing to share with the rest of the class.
Thank you in advance.



airdale
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 5:11:08 PM
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I load mine with 130gr hardcast bullets with 9.0grs Unique. The hardcast bullets are available from leadheads at www.proshootpro.com



Peter in CA
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 9:35:02 PM
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airdale,
Thanks for the info. I went to the website referenced and then called Tommy and ordered 500 6.5mm bullets. And some .303 bullets. I thought that I would let you know that he might drop the 6.5 bullets from his line. Something about seating the gas checks by hand.



airdale
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 10:49:56 PM
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Peter Thanks for the info on Leadheads maybe dropping the 6.5 bullets, I guess I should order some more.



GJD
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 7:24:48 PM
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What kind of accuracy have you gotten airdale? I'm very interested because I do intend to buy a 6.5x52 Vetterli.



airdale
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 8:30:21 PM
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Originally posted by GJD
What kind of accuracy have you gotten airdale? I'm very interested because I do intend to buy a 6.5x52 Vetterli.

GJD my 1889 Terni V V 70/87/15 shoots about 4" groups at 100 yds with the above load, it's very mild and has the recoil about like a .22 rimfire. I also have an 1878 Torre Annunziata 70/87/15 that I haven't tested yet.



GJD
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 9:29:34 PM
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Ok, thanks. Have you ever chronoed your loads? Are they on par or less compared to the psi of black powder loads?



airdale
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 08:24:52 AM
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No I haven't chronographed the loads. This is load data I got from Lyman's cast bullet manual. If I get a chance I'll crony some this afternoon and post the results.



airdale
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 12:19:33 PM
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Here is the data from a six round clip fired in the 1889 Terni V V 70/87/15. Using Alpha crony placed 15ft. from muzzle, Grafs brass, Rem. std. LR primers, Leadheads 130gr. hardcast G/C .266 dia. bullets, 8.7grs. Unique, COL 2.870 and OAT of 47 deg. F.

HI = 1397 FPS
LO = 1371 FPS
Extreme spread = 25.88 FPS
Avg. Vel. = 1381 FPS
Std Deviation = 9.64

Don't know how this load compares to the pressure of the original black powder load but there are no signs of pressure with the above load, very mild.

Carcano
10-10-2007, 03:20 PM
airdale
Posted - 11/29/2005 : 10:12:35 AM
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Vaarok I shoot mine using .266 dia. 130gr hard cast bullets and 8-10 grs of Unique. The bullets are available from Leadheads www.proshootpro.com (620)549-6475. I don't recommend firing surplus or new factory made ammo in them but some people do. Nebrhogger shoots these a lot and can probably give you more info on loading for them.

Carcano
10-10-2007, 09:06 PM
marysdad
Posted - 01/09/2006 : 12:08:37 AM
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Old man winter finally cooperated and I was able to get the rescued 6.5mm Vetterli out to the range. I shot at 50 yards, since I didn't know where it was going to print.

Using reduced loads (avg. velocity was 1710 fps.) with 160 gr. (.264 dia.) jacketed bullets, it shot very well. After firing one into the bank from behind the bench for protection, I took four shots to get the sight picture right. I then fired 15 consecutive shots into a 2 1/8 x 1 1/8 inch group (the stringing was vertical).

The trigger pull was horrid. It must have been 20 lbs. By the final shots, I was having to use my left hand to help pull the trigger.

The only problem I encountered was that the magazine and receiver don't line up properly, so a loaded clip cannot be inserted into the magazine. The receiver is too far forward of the magazine. The magazine works perfectly with the receiver/barrel gone. The stock was not broken completely in two, so I know that it went back together exactly as it was before it broke. I don't see how it ever could have functioned properly. Any thoughts on this?

Carcano
10-10-2007, 09:10 PM
Peter in CA
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 3:43:55 PM
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Now that I have joined the ranks of WW1 modified Vetterli owners (thanks Don), I have seen how much of the cartridge shows when the rifle is in battery. So I am asking fellow owners/shooters to please share their favorite 6.5 Carcano loads specifically tailored for the Vetterli. I plan on going as light as the loading manuals say (maybe a tad lighter) and I will be using .264 diameter bullets, but I am sure a few of you already have experience with this and are willing to share with the rest of the class.
Thank you in advance.



airdale
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 5:11:08 PM
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I load mine with 130gr hardcast bullets with 9.0grs Unique. The hardcast bullets are available from leadheads at www.proshootpro.com


Peter in CA
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 9:35:02 PM
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airdale,
Thanks for the info. I went to the website referenced and then called Tommy and ordered 500 6.5mm bullets. And some .303 bullets. I thought that I would let you know that he might drop the 6.5 bullets from his line. Something about seating the gas checks by hand.



airdale
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 10:49:56 PM
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Peter Thanks for the info on Leadheads maybe dropping the 6.5 bullets, I guess I should order some more.



GJD
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 7:24:48 PM
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What kind of accuracy have you gotten airdale? I'm very interested because I do intend to buy a 6.5x52 Vetterli.



airdale
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 8:30:21 PM
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Originally posted by GJD
What kind of accuracy have you gotten airdale? I'm very interested because I do intend to buy a 6.5x52 Vetterli.

GJD my 1889 Terni V V 70/87/15 shoots about 4" groups at 100 yds with the above load, it's very mild and has the recoil about like a .22 rimfire. I also have an 1878 Torre Annunziata 70/87/15 that I haven't tested yet.



GJD
Posted - 01/19/2006 : 9:29:34 PM
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Ok, thanks. Have you ever chronoed your loads? Are they on par or less compared to the psi of black powder loads?



airdale
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 08:24:52 AM
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No I haven't cronagraphed the loads. This is load data I got from Lyman's cast bullet manual. If I get a chance I'll crony some this afternoon and post the results.



airdale
Posted - 01/20/2006 : 12:19:33 PM
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Here is the data from a six round clip fired in the 1889 Terni V V 70/87/15. Using Alpha crony placed 15ft. from muzzle, Grafs brass, Rem. std. LR primers, Leadheads 130gr. hardcast G/C .266 dia. bullets, 8.7grs. Unique, COL 2.870 and OAT of 47 deg. F.

HI = 1397 FPS
LO = 1371 FPS
Extreme spread = 25.88 FPS
Avg. Vel. = 1381 FPS
Std Deviation = 9.64

Don't know how this load compares to the pressure of the original black powder load but there are no signs of pressure with the above load, very mild.

Carcano
10-11-2007, 05:37 AM
GJD
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 8:32:53 PM
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Went to the local shooting range today with my new purchase, an Italian 70/87/15 Vetterli. Rifle had been converted to shoot the 6.5x52 Carcano round. I have heard many things about these conversions not being at all safe and even if you dry fire it it might blow up in your face (kidding). However, well not generally a risk taker, I decided to try and see what I could get this old rifle to do. My rifle is in very, very nice condition. Excellent bluing, very good looking stock, matching numbers, and a great bore. Picked up for $150 locally.

I decided not to mess with smokeless loads to start out with. Well, how did you shoot it then, you ask? With good old blackpowder, what the reciever was designed for. Yes, yes, I know that the 6.5 Carcano round was never loaded up with BP, but I gave it a shot anywho. Load was:

Case: Hornady "Frontier" from Graf's
Bullet: 130 grain .266 gas checked cast bullet from Leadheads
Powder: Goex FFFFg
Charge: Full case (About 55.5 grains on average)
Primer: CCI Large Rifle
Lube: Crisco (dipped the bullet before firing)

Powder was compressed pretty nicely by using the base of the bullet. Because of all the bad things I'd heard about these conversions, when I had the first round chambered, I leaned away from the action and pulled the trigger for what seemed like hours and then heard a small but stout "Pooooooff". I looked up, checked the rifle, checked the case. Everything was just fine. Ended up only shooting 20 cartridges, but they were reasonably accurate at 50 yards. Most likely will never win a prize, but I had a great bit of fun getting this old gun to bark. Fouling was for the most part not an issue. No leading, and the after one wet and one dry patch, the bore went back to shiny. Overall, I'm impressed.


- Disclaimer - From the looks of these conversion, some have the potential to be quite unsafe, depending on how the headspace is. I am not saying that what works for my rifle will safely work for yours. Please consult other sources before attempting to duplicate my results. - Dislaimer -



dg13
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 2:33:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bought mine about14 years ago for $95--the first WWI purchase of god knows how many! I've never shot mine and am afraid of tube slipage. I'm glad the old girl performed well after 90 or so years! dg13



marysdad
Posted - 12/24/2006 : 11:12:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I picked one up with a broken stock for $35 a year or so back. It appeared to have been someone's wallhanger that fell from the wall. I repaired the stock and wanted to take it to the range.

I used the calculations in the Lee Reloading manual to derive a reduced load for jacketed bullets, using IMR-4895, that was about 19,000 PSI (half the 40,000 PSI of a normal Carcano load and fairly close to most of the black-powder loads of the 1870-1880 era). I chrono'd the shooting session and the velocities recorded were very close to what I had estimated using Lee's calculations. Even with the awful sights and probably 20 pound trigger pull, it managed to put 15 rounds into about 2.125 inches at 50 yards.



GJD
Posted - 12/27/2006 : 11:07:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have just heard that a 4F load is way too hot for this gun. I will change to 1F and post a range report Sat. afternoon I think.



John Sukey
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 01:01:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1F is for anything over .50 calibre. 2F would be a better choice.



Joe Turner
Posted - 12/29/2006 : 1:57:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there have been some nice light smokeless loads using cast bullets posted on the Italian Arms forum. I used 13 grains of Unique behind a 120 grain lead bullets that works very well. Also some folks use 13 grains of Red Dot ( sometimes called The Load ). Using black powder is fine, I have done it myself in my Vetterli 70/87/15 which is basically brand new but like the easier maintenance of smokeless. By the way you will get more consistent results using 2F powder rather than 1F. Joe

Carcano
10-11-2007, 04:33 PM
JPS
Posted - 05/02/2005 : 6:28:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Spec-ops,
Here is part of a thread that ran a couple of weeks ago. I simply pulled my old response from that thread to save you the trouble of looking for it. Here is the skinny on the 6.5 mm conversions. The advice you have received has been spot on. Shoot full house 6.5mm ammunition AT YOUR OWN RISK! Light smokeless loads with cast bullets are fun to shoot and won't damage you or your rifle.

Warmest regards,

JPS



Yo Gents,

The Model 1870 Vetterli was designed.......you guessed it!.......in 1870, as a black powder single shot. The majority of these rifles were then upgraded to repeaters in 1887 with the Vitali box magazine at which point they became Model 1870/87s. However, they were still in the original chambering of 10.4X47mmR. This is a very low pressure black powder round that approximates the ballistics of the .44 mag revolver firing a heavy lead bullet (NOT the pressure of the .44 mag!).

The conversions that were performed during WWI were a response to an emergency shortage of serviceable small arms in the Italian Army. The Model 70/87/15 (or 16s according to some sources) was issued during WWI to artillery, lines of communication, train, military police and prison guards and other non-combatant units. They were issued to troops that were never expected to fire their small arms other than in a dire emergency. The various models of the Carcano that were originally issued to these same troops were then freed up for issue to front line combat units.

The Vetterlis were understood from the very beginning by the Italian Ordnance Department to be ABSOLUTELY MARGINAL WARTIME EMERGENCY CONVERSIONS. They were not expected to see regular combat duty in the trenches. The barrels are sleeved. When these rifles were originally produced, they were contemporaries of the US Trapdoor Springfield. I don't hear a lot of people advocating shooting modern smokeless loads in a Springfield? Metallurgy in the mid to late 19th Century was not what it was even in the early 20th Century. These were produced out of very soft steel. Take a close look at the small lugs on the back of the bolt. Then look at the lugs on a Carcano.

In addition, many of these rifles were converted by brazing the new bolt head on the old bolt body. I have examples of both types of bolt in my collection. The original bolt face was designed for a case that is near identical to the .348 Winchester (I am not at home or I could give you the original case rim and head diameters).

This subject has been covered countless times on the Forum since it opened in 1995. Over the years, we came up with verified examples of two barrel sleeves shooting loose from the original barrel and ruining the rifle. In addition, we had two people who had the brazed bolt heads separate from the bolt body. These rifles were never specifically designed to direct gas away from the face of the shooter, although I would imagine that a lot of the gas would channel down through the magazine in the case of a pierced primer or separated case head. My biggest concern beyond these two problems would be an eventual headspace problem due to the soft actions gradually stretching over time if fired with full house loads.

I have never heard of a Vetterli completely letting go, however, that does not mean it can't happen. Fire these rifles with full house Carcano loads at your own risk. Common sense and a full understanding of their history would in my opinion, cause an intelligent person to tread lightly. These were marginal conversions undertaken on an emergency basis during the biggest war in History up until that time. I can't see as how the past 90 years has done anything to make them stronger?

Just my $ .02 worth.

Warmest regards,

JPS



jonk
Posted - 05/03/2005 : 12:13:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would also consider light loads of smokeless and jacketed bullets safe; but the main thing is light loads.



doughboy1953
Posted - 05/22/2005 : 01:22:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would concur that the Vetterli is not probalby a good candidate for lots of shooting with 6.5mm ammo (personally, I find THAT at a premium anyway) but I will say that for its day it was quite an advanced action with symmetrical bolt locking although it is at the rear of the bolt. I think the Vitali conversions were quite a good idea to stretch a few more years of life out of some black powder service rifles.
On the flip side, a Vetterli bolt tends to be rather "flimsy" compared to a lot of their big bore contemporaries.
Man, that 6.5 mm conversion is one heavy bear to carry around, too!



John Sukey
Posted - 05/23/2005 : 12:59:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why even smokeless? just load the thing with FFg and shoot! Dunk the fired cases in a container of hot soapy water to remove the residue. Just as a matter of interest they did make 10.4 rounds with smokeless powder. I pulled the bullet from one and there was a tuft of cotton over a small smokeless charge. However, I just use Black powder in mine.



98CamaroZ28
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 01:38:07 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I personally have put 40 rounds of PRVI partizan 139 grain FMJ, light loaded 6.5mm through my old Vetterli. As far as being able to withstand these lighter loads with .264" bullets (unlike the Hornady and surplus ammo which is hotter with .268" bullets) I am yet to see any sign of failure in parts or loosening of parts. It fires straight, rather accurately, doesn't kick too much and functions well hold one issue. The problem I have noticed (and this might just be from rust/dirt in the chamber), it takes a little persuasion to remove the fired case from the chamber. It's done this since the first test shot I fired (into the ground), holding the gun around a tree and wearing gloves etc. as precaution). A little gun oil and some nitro solvent, I thought I fixed the problem; the first round fired, and ejected smooth as silk, as did the second, but the third required some persuassion and the fourth I had to knock out with the ram rod.I disassembled the bolt and noticed the extractor claw is rather weak. The big problem I've noticed firing the remaining 36 rounds is that extractor is flimsy and likes to slip off the rim of the cartridge. I'm trying to see if a new bolt (if I can ever find one) will fix the problem. I'm going to go deeper into the chamber with a brass brush as well cause there may be some corrosion I didn't clear from deeper within in the chamber. Either way I'd never fire anything but the PRVI in this gun, and I plan on reloading the brass I've collected with lighter, 123 grain rounds in FMJ.



John Sukey
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 2:15:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did take apart a late 10.4 round and it had smokeless powder. Still have a couple around but the primers are a lost cause. Dent nicely, but no bang.



DMala
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 1:03:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by 98CamaroZ28
I personally have put 40 rounds of PRVI partizan 139 grain FMJ, light loaded 6.5mm through my old Vetterli. As far as being able to withstand these lighter loads with .264" bullets (unlike the Hornady and surplus ammo which is hotter with .268" bullets) I am yet to see any sign of failure in parts or loosening of parts. It fires straight, rather accurately, doesn't kick too much and functions well hold one issue. The problem I have noticed (and this might just be from rust/dirt in the chamber), it takes a little persuasion to remove the fired case from the chamber (...)

Be careful, because the Prvi ammo, despite the .264" bullet, is very hot. I have experienced several times clear signs of overpressure (flattened primer, bolt hard to open) in Carcanos that digested .268" bullets with no problems. I would not shoot it in a Vetterli and quite frankly I am not going to shoot it anyome in Carcanos either....



98CamaroZ28
Posted - 07/13/2005 : 11:06:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, I'm not going to continue firing it because it's inconsistent with the extraction. Perhaps thats signs of over pressure then? Regardless, I've never had any problems in 40 rounds; perhaps the actions are asweak as tauted.



vernz
Posted - 07/16/2005 : 08:17:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NebrHogger - I've been itching to try my 6.5 Vetterli at the range. You stated in this string that you could provide the light cast bullet load that you use. I'd appreciate that.
John Sukey - What kind of accuracy do you get shooting black powder in the 6.5mm Vetterli? In my experience, smaller calibers do not take well to black powder from the acuracy perspective (I've tried .303 British, and 8mm).
98CamaroZ28 - One thing that may have hapenned to cause progressively worse extraction difficulty is that you may have ringed the chamber. That is, the chamber stretched in the middle and thus your fired cases are now slightly barrel shaped.



NebrHogger
Posted - 02/14/2006 : 12:10:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would be very cautious about black powder in a bottleneck case. Black was used in cases with a SLIGHT bottleneck, but nothing like the 6.5X52. Consider the burning rates of smokeless vs black. Black doesn't so much burn as detonate... well, deflagrate is the actual term, but pressure builds very rapidly.

In antique arms such as the Vetterli, excess pressure is a condition to be avoided at all costs. Using the 129 gr gas checked cast bullet from Leadheads, 10 grains of Unique is a mild load that has not harmed any of the Vetts I have used to fire it.

Be careful, friends; throwing caution to the winds can result in bodily harm & wrecked guns. SW

Carcano
10-13-2007, 06:40 PM
arvie
Posted - 02/27/2006 : 5:30:37 PM
----------------------------------------------------------------
This is my first post on this board, but I have visited a number of times and gained a lot of really useful info on the Carcano and Vetterli rifles. So, thanks to all of you.
A message posted by Airdale on 1/20/06 gave me enough nerve to shoot my 1980/87/15 Vetterli that had been hanging on the wall for several years. I thought I would share my results with those of you who are interested:

I copied Airdale's ideas and ordered some Leadhead bullets and bought some Unique powder and loaded up 10 rounds each at 8.0 and 8.4 grains. The 8.0 load was the start load recommended in Lymans Cast Bullet Hdb. I used once-fired Prvi brass, CCI LR primers, and of course the 130 gr, .266" gas-checked Leadhead bullet. I used a Lee die set, and did not crimp the neck. The bullet seemed to fit tight enough without a crimp. The COL was 2.875.

I fired 3 rounds of each load at 25, 50 and 100 yards. I measured the velocity with a Chrony on a couple of rounds just to get and ideal. Three-shot groups for the 8.0 gr start load (1270 fps) at 25, 50 and 100 yds measured 2.8, 6.7, and 15 inches, respectively. Similar three-shot groups for the 8.4 gr load (1360 fps)were 1.5, 1.8 and 4.0 inches. My rifle shoot 5-6" to the right at 100 yd. The 8.4 gr load hit 1.4 and 2.3 in. above POA at 25 and 50 yds, but was about 2 in. low at 100 yd. There was practically no recoil and I ran into no problems. Some of the cases were a little sooty around the neck, but otherwise in good shape. Does any one know how to adjust the windage on these things? I plan to try 8.4 and 8.7 gr loads next time. Any suggestions would be appreciated.



airdale
Posted - 02/28/2006 : 09:09:22 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome aboard arvie. I get the best results with my rifles using 8.7 - 9.0 grs. Unique. I have fired up to 10 grs (max) but accuracy didn't improve with the higher loads in my rifles. My Terni made V V also shoots about 5" to the right but I learned where to hold on the target, not much you can do about windage adjustments on these without modifing the rifle's sights.



NebrHogger
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 09:06:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes - you use "Italian Windage" on these! These are fun rifles to shoot. Good work!! SW



Mauser71
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 7:24:32 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
What if any type of filler are people using to keep powder against the primer? I have heard & read that high pressure can result both with & without a filler with fast powder. The Lymans Cast Bullet Hdb dosen't address this issue.

This summer my Vetterli & Carcano will be making range visits.



NebrHogger
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 8:22:50 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have experimented with a tiny pinch of 'teddy bear stuffins' - dacron, I think. Wifey had some from when the preppy daughters were little & had beat up bears. I didn't notice any real changes in accuracy or pressure signs.

Since I have never had any pressure spikes of any kind with cast loads, I gave up on it. The only pressure spikes I have ever experienced were with the .268 bullet & powder other than what Hornady recommends. SW



airdale
Posted - 03/03/2006 : 11:08:19 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't use any filler in my V V cast loads.



GJD
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 10:03:20 PM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
How does the .266 Leadheads bullet seat for you guys? The bullet falls right through and into the powder in my once fired FNM and Privi Partizan cases. I will be using these loads in a M91/38 Carcano Cavalry Carbine.



NebrHogger
Posted - 05/22/2006 : 10:09:21 PM -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Since I use Hornady dies with the wide expander, I got an RCBS neck sizer from Huntingtons. I have a separate ammo box for my 6.5 Vett loads & only neck size them. No problems that way.

I use a Lee dedicated neck expander for the cast bullets so I don't get shavings when I seat the bullet. No crimp to speak of - just enough to remove the slight bell. SW

Carcano
10-21-2007, 05:52 PM
Another thread brought a good summary of the warnings. I do not agree with JPS' criticism, but I think that everyone owning a VV conversion and wishing to shoot it, should first duly weigh and understand it, before then proceeding to make up his or her own mind.

Alexander

* * *

98CamaroZ28
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 05:08:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently acquired one of these sleeved Vetterlis as well. I can understand not using full power military spec rounds with a .268" 160 grain bullet, but using the smaller .264" commerical ammo with smaller bullets and smaller powder loads seems to be the recommended consensus for hassle free shooting. I am curious though, has anyone ever reported one of these rifles blowing up in their faces while firing any 6.5mm ammo, commercial or military? I have tried looking but never found such an incident.



DMala
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 10:23:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not have any specific memory of accidents with 70/87/16, but a careful approach makes sense because:

- receiver strenght originally designed for black powder loads
- a few reports of loose barrel sleeve
- in the 6.5mm conversions, the bolt head is also frequently soldered to the bolt body.

Smokeless loads with CAST bullets are in my opinion the safest choice. I am not sure if using blackpowder in bottlenecked small volume cases is a good idea. Similarly, loads with .264 jacketed bullets should not be below the minimum recommended in the manuals.



JPS
Posted - 04/21/2005 : 5:41:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Gents,

The Model 1870 Vetterli was designed.......you guessed it!.......in 1870, as a black powder single shot. The majority of these rifles were then upgraded to repeaters in 1887 with the Vitali box magazine at which point they became Model 1870/87s. However, they were still in the original chambering of 10.4X47mmR. This is a very low pressure black powder round that approximates the ballistics of the .44 mag revolver firing a heavy lead bullet (NOT the pressure of the .44 mag!).

The conversions that were performed during WWI were a response to an emergency shortage of serviceable small arms in the Italian Army. The Model 70/87/15 (or 16s according to some sources) was issued during WWI to artillery, lines of communication, train, military police and prison guards and other non-combatant units. They were issued to troops that were never expected to fire their small arms other than in a dire emergency. The various models of the Carcano that were originally issued to these same troops were then freed up for issue to front line combat units.

The Vetterlis were understood from the very beginning by the Italian Ordnance Department to be ABSOLUTELY MARGINAL WARTIME EMERGENCY CONVERSIONS. They were not expected to see regular combat duty in the trenches. The barrels are sleeved. When these rifles were originally produced, they were contemporaries of the US Trapdoor Springfield. I don't hear a lot of people advocating shooting modern smokeless loads in a Springfield? Metallurgy in the mid to late 19th Century was not what it was even in the early 20th Century. These were produced out of very soft steel. Take a close look at the small lugs on the back of the bolt. Then look at the lugs on a Carcano.

In addition, many of these rifles were converted by brazing the new bolt head on the old bolt body. I have examples of both types of bolt in my collection. The original bolt face was designed for a case that is near identical to the .348 Winchester (I am not at home or I could give you the original case rim and head diameters).

This subject has been covered countless times on the Forum since it opened in 1995. Over the years, we came up with verified examples of two barrel sleeves shooting loose from the original barrel and ruining the rifle. In addition, we had two people who had the brazed bolt heads separate from the bolt body. These rifles were never specifically designed to direct gas away from the face of the shooter, although I would imagine that a lot of the gas would channel down through the magazine in the case of a pierced primer or separated case head. My biggest concern beyond these two problems would be an eventual headspace problem due to the soft actions gradually stretching over time if fired with full house loads.

I have never heard of a Vetterli completely letting go, however, that does not mean it can't happen. Fire these rifles with full house Carcano loads at your own risk. Common sense and a full understanding of their history would in my opinion, cause an intelligent person to tread lightly. These were marginal conversions undertaken on an emergency basis during the biggest war in History up until that time. I can't see as how the past 90 years has done anything to make them stronger?

Just my $ .02 worth.

Warmest regards,

JPS

Carcano
10-21-2007, 06:12 PM
GJD
Posted - 12/23/2006 : 8:38:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Went to the local shooting range today with my new purchase, an Italian 70/87/15 Vetterli. Rifle had been converted to shoot the 6.5x52 Carcano round. I have heard many things about these conversions not being at all safe and even if you dry fire it it might blow up in your face (kidding). However, well not generally a risk taker, I decided to try and see what I could get this old rifle to do. My rifle is in very, very nice condition. Excellent bluing, very good looking stock, matching numbers, and a great bore. Picked up for $150 locally.

I decided not to mess with smokeless loads to start out with. Well, how did you shoot it then, you ask? With good old blackpowder, what the reciever was designed for. Yes, yes, I know that the 6.5 Carcano round was never loaded up with BP, but I gave it a shot anywho. Load was:

Case: Hornady "Frontier" from Graf's
Bullet: 130 grain .266 gas checked cast bullet from Leadheads
Powder: Goex FFFFg
Charge: Full case (About 55.5 grains on average)
Primer: CCI Large Rifle
Lube: Crisco (dipped the bullet before firing)

Powder was compressed pretty nicely by using the base of the bullet. Because of all the bad things I'd heard about these conversions, when I had the first round chambered, I leaned away from the action and pulled the trigger for what seemed like hours and then heard a small but stout "Pooooooff". I looked up, checked the rifle, checked the case. Everything was just fine. Ended up only shooting 20 cartridges, but they were reasonably accurate at 50 yards. Most likely will never win a prize, but I had a great bit of fun getting this old gun to bark. Fouling was for the most part not an issue. No leading, and the after one wet and one dry patch, the bore went back to shiny. Overall, I'm impressed.


- Disclaimer - From the looks of these conversion, some have the potential to be quite unsafe, depending on how the headspace is. I am not saying that what works for my rifle will safely work for yours. Please consult other sources before attempting to duplicate my results. - Dislaimer -

Carcano
10-23-2007, 04:45 PM
airdale
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 07:48:39 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moconner these are fun guns to shoot with light cast bullet loads. I shoot the two I own with 130gr. hard cast .266 dia. bullets loaded with 8-10 grs Unique powder. The avg. velocity in my rifles is 1380 FPS with 9.0 grs unique and very mild. The rifles are also fairly accurate with this load and does about 4" groups at 100 yds. Both of my rifles shoots high and to the right though and to get the rounds in the bull I have to hold on the bottom left hand corner of the target.

If you want to try some cast loads in your rifle you can get 130gr. hard cast .266 dia. bullets from Leadheads at www.proshootpro.com

Carcano
10-23-2007, 05:33 PM
Tiledude
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 10:14:00 PM
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Shot my new Vetterli 1870/87/15 Brescia today. Was using the load that I picked up from this forum.

.266 Green Bay Bullets Lead 125 gr. 9.0 gr. Unique with a Federal 210 primer. Graf 6.5 Carcano case.

Was shooting off the bench with sandbags at 50 yds. It started raining just as I ran out of my 6.5 ammo.

What a blast! It shot very well. No recoil but a nice Pop! and slap on the target. I'm gonna load some more quick! Thanks to all for the loading data.

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The lower targets are a .22 that I was sighting in.

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airdale
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 10:38:37 AM
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Tiledude I dug through my notes on the cast loads I use in the V V 70/87/15's and will post the stats I have written down. I have fired up to 10.0 grs. Unique in these cast loads but the best accuracy in my rifles seems to be in the 8.7-9.0 range.

Data was obtained using an 1889 Terni rifle, Alpha crony 15' from muzzle, Grafs brass, Rem. 9 1/2 standard primers, Leadheads 130 gr. hardcast gas checked .266 dia. bullets, 8.7 grs. Unique, COL 2.870, and temp 47F.

HI = 1397 FPS
Lo = 1371 FPS
Avg = 1381 FPS (6 shots)
Es = 25.88 FPS
Sd = 9.64



Tiledude
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 11:47:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Airdale - I believe it was your data range that I used.

I have seldom shot lead bullets in my centerfire rifles - Maily in Trapdoor Springfield a long time ago.

This was really fun and the Vetterliu shot well - Much like yours I suspect.

How do you clean lead from your bore?



airdale
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 2:00:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiledude I don't have any leading problems with the Leadheads hard cast bullets in the V V 70/87/15. The Leadheads bullets have a hardness of BHN 22 and I keep the velocities below 1500 FPS. Once I had some leading occur in a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 mag revolver with some cast bullets someone gave me and I used an Outers electronic bore cleaner to remove it, that was a lot easier than scubbing and thats about the only leading problem I have had.