Shot my Argentine M91 Carbine today.. Yowzers!!

[69khz]

Oh, she's a kicker & she's loud!

I shot her for the first time today.. Argentine M91 Carbine using SF 7.65x54.

I was in standing position, open sites at 50 yards & first shot was 1/4" from bullseye, but never did I expect the percieved recoil that I got & was quite the muzzle flash too. :)

The remaining shots were scattered in loose groups, I suppose from flinch from anticipated recoil.. How do I correct that.. first time it's happened.

I need more information. If the argentine mauser is 7.65x53, why is the SF ammo 7.65x54? What's the differance in the two? If I found 7.65x53, would the percieved recoil be lower? The backward recoil to my shoulder don't really bother me, but I became concerned with the upward motion of the muzzle.

Also, I only brought 42 rounds with me to the range & 9 failed to fire.. Am I having a problem with the ammo, or do I need a new firing pin? The marks in the primer look same as the ones from fired cases, though a couple look poked lighter.

One round that failed to fire, I put it back in to try a second time & it fired, so, do you think I need a new firing pin, or is this common with this ammo?

First shot resulted in a split case at the neck.

Another shot somewhere in the middle resulted in a primer becoming entirely removed & had alot of gas blowback to my face & found remnants of the primer later when I cleaned.

The case from that one looks burned at the base.

What do you like to shoot for your argies?

[Beanstrung]

...brought 42 rounds with me to the range & 9 failed to fire.. Am I having a problem with the ammo, or do I need a new firing pin? The marks in the primer look same as the ones from fired cases, though a couple look poked lighter.

One round that failed to fire, I put it back in to try a second time & it fired, so, do you think I need a new firing pin, or is this common with this ammo?

First shot resulted in a split case at the neck.

Another shot somewhere in the middle resulted in a primer becoming entirely removed & had alot of gas blowback to my face & found remnants of the primer later when I cleaned.

The case from that one looks burned at the base.



The "SF" surplus ammo has well-known issues with internal corrosion. In my opinion it should NOT be used in a '91-action, primarily for the chance of a case-head separation. You were lucky with just the primer blowing out. If the case-head had let go, you might not have been able to post here for a while...


See previous thread here:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=6952

[aaron10]

A few of my own observations I used to shoot my 1891 carbine all the time back in the late 70`s, using norma ammo or 1940 fmap ammo never had a problem. Last few years I bought some newer surplus 1975 stuff, powder was like the 1940 stuff flake style ,but alot of it was wet inside and bullet bases were not even, then I got some of the 1980`s ammo this was worse, powder was stick and not flake it was wet and breaking down, bullet bases uneven, and alot of green corrosion inside even though it looked good on the outside. Reloading is the best option for this round, if you use norma brass you will find it is spec`d for the 1909 rifles and after you fire it in the 1891 you should neck size as the 1891`s have a chamber that is cut .010 deeper than the 1909`s I assume they did this to allow for some slop in battle and the weaker extractor design, I found this out by seeing a old chamber reamer print from 1943 from winchester, I found this to be true after ordering a go guage and it worked great for my 6 different 1891`s but wouldnt close in my 2 1909`s. aaron10

[69khz]

The "SF" surplus ammo has well-known issues with internal corrosion. In my opinion it should NOT be used in a '91-action, primarily for the chance of a case-head separation. You were lucky with just the primer blowing out. If the case-head had let go, you might not have been able to post here for a while...


See previous thread here:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=6952

OH, indeed..

Glad you replied to my post before I went back to fire more.. I won't shoot this stuff anymore.

[Jim Goodman]

I'm not too knowledgeable about ammo. What is "SF" ammo? Jim

[69khz]

I'm not too knowledgeable about ammo. What is "SF" ammo? Jim

Made in San Francisco, Argentina & has headstamp SF

[bxn65]

These fine rifles deserve fine handloads; the last lot of SF I tried was sure-fire, but the accuracy disappointed. A lot of surplus ammo seems to get hotter as it deteriorates, so maybe that's why you got punished so badly.

Best deal on brass is Graf's, but they are out at the moment. You can form brass from 30-06, but it may need to be neck turned or neck reamed so bullets won't be pinched on chambering. Don't know if you can still get Remington 6,5x55 brass for case forming, but it doesn't require neck thinning. Winchester 6,5x55 brass will work in some rifles, but it has a slightly larger base diameter than the Remington.

As to the difference between 7,65x53 and 7,65x54, I don't think there really is any. Kinda like Russian 7,62x53 and 7,62x54. I have brass with both headstamps.

[PhysDoc2]

I am curious about something aaron10 said. I've got two 1909's and
two 1891's, I've been a bit leary of shooting the 1891's, one has
a mismatched bolt, and the other, I just haven't gotten around to trying it.
I don't have headspace guages and have tried the tape method. But if
I understand arron10 correctly, the tape method (pieces of cellophane
on the back of cartridge cases) should make on conclude that you have
excessive headspace on 1891's, is that right?

[bxn65]

Doc, the Scotch tape method of headspace checking (which I'm not recommending, mind you) involves putting pieces on the case head one at a time until the bolt won't close. IIRC, one layer of Scotch tape is about .004" thick, so if the bolt will close on two layers, you're iffy. If it will close on three layers, you have a problem. Again, not recommending this. Try to find the correct headspace gauge.

[Beanstrung]

I got my 7.65X53 Arg. NOGO gage from:
JGS Precision Tool Mfg. (541) 267-4331

[PhysDoc2]

hmm, ok, I should give more information, when I try the scotch tape method
on my 98 Mausers it works like I suspect it should, one to two layers and
the bolt has difficulty closing. When I try it on say P-14 Enfields where
I have rimmed cartridge, this does not give the same results,
rifles. I am curious if there is something about the 1891 bolts that make
them poor candidates for doing the tape trick.

[69khz]

Any thoughts about using the Yugo 2002 production ammo in the 1891?

[aaron10]

I got my go guage from jgs too 7.65 x 53 argentine modern spec cip ,but it wouldnt close on any of my 1909`s or 1891`s so I sent it back and reordered the go guage for the 7.65 belgian mauser, it worked fine on my 1891`s they all just closed snuggly , it wouldnt close on my 1909`s on the print it shows thats the 1909`s were chambered .010 tighter so now I have another go guage coming that set up for the 1909`s. aaron10 ps they email you a spec sheet of the different prints if you ask them.

[MakarovManic]

These fine rifles deserve fine handloads; the last lot of SF I tried was sure-fire, but the accuracy disappointed. A lot of surplus ammo seems to get hotter as it deteriorates, so maybe that's why you got punished so badly.

Best deal on brass is Graf's, but they are out at the moment. You can form brass from 30-06, but it may need to be neck turned or neck reamed so bullets won't be pinched on chambering. Don't know if you can still get Remington 6,5x55 brass for case forming, but it doesn't require neck thinning. Winchester 6,5x55 brass will work in some rifles, but it has a slightly larger base diameter than the Remington.

As to the difference between 7,65x53 and 7,65x54, I don't think there really is any. Kinda like Russian 7,62x53 and 7,62x54. I have brass with both headstamps.

I use 30-06 brass reformed and transformed to original ammo specs. for my old Argentine. I am extremely pleased with the extreme accuracy. The punishing(?) recoil you are getting seems a little peculiar to me, as I have used surplus ammo for my Argentine as well as my reloads and find it less "harsh" than most of my other milsurp WWII carbines and long gun weapons. Just my opinion. And, if you want that old gun to *really* perform, roll your own regarding the ammo, I think you will be in for a very pleasant surprise.

---MakarovManic

[tjg79]

I bought a set of 7.65x53mm Argentine headspace gauges from Pacific Tool & Gauge, Inc. The bolts on my two Argentine 1909s wouldn't close on any of them (go, no-go & field). I had PT&G send the gauge drawings to determine the problem. I compared the PT&G drawings with the barrel drawings depicted in Webster's Argentine Mauser Rifles. The three gauges were at least .040" too long. Also, the chamber shoulder angle was off. PT&G offered to adjust the gauges. I'm going to design the new gauges from the barrel/chamber drawing in Webster's book and have PT&G adjust the gauges. After checking with several gauge makers, it appears many do not use standard or current CIP or SAAMI maximum cartridge/minimum chamber drawings to design their gauges. They don't want to pay the subscription fees. SAAMI does not have a 7.65mm Arg standard. In some cases, they used cartridge drawings downloaded from the Internet. Be careful if you just buy a no-go or field gauge. You may get a false indication of headspace. In my case, the go gauge indicated that the three gauges were not made to proper specs. Also, you should not use go, no-go & field gauges from different makers; get a complete set from from one maker. For milsurps, CIP and SAAMI specs do not always match original milspecs. An ideal set of gauges should be designed from original milspecs unless you've had your rifle chamber changed to CIP or SAAMI specs.

I don't recommend the scotch tape method for measuring headspace either.

[aaron10]

TJG79 just curious what does colin websters book show for chamber diamensions , is angle of shoulder 22 1/2 degrees or 23 degrees , My 1891 go guage that works is 1.821 with 22 1/2 degree angle on the shoulder, the one Im having adjusted is same angle but made to 1.811 for my 1909`s thats the one that matches norma ammo . Like you the first one I ordered was 1.8417 for the go and 1.8517 for the field with 23 degree thats new cip spec it was way too long. I plan on this winter doing some chamber casts from both rifles and like one of the other guys I form my brass from remington 6.5 x 55 for these rifles it saves you from the base bulge. Aaron10

[racin500]

I bought a set of 7.65x53mm Argentine headspace gauges from Pacific Tool & Gauge, Inc. The bolts on my two Argentine 1909s wouldn't close on any of them (go, no-go & field). I had PT&G send the gauge drawings to determine the problem. I compared the PT&G drawings with the barrel drawings depicted in Webster's Argentine Mauser Rifles. The three gauges were at least .040" too long. Also, the chamber shoulder angle was off. PT&G offered to adjust the gauges. I'm going to design the new gauges from the barrel/chamber drawing in Webster's book and have PT&G adjust the gauges. After checking with several gauge makers, it appears many do not use standard or current CIP or SAAMI maximum cartridge/minimum chamber drawings to design their gauges. They don't want to pay the subscription fees. SAAMI does not have a 7.65mm Arg standard. In some cases, they used cartridge drawings downloaded from the Internet. Be careful if you just buy a no-go or field gauge. You may get a false indication of headspace. In my case, the go gauge indicated that the three gauges were not made to proper specs. Also, you should not use go, no-go & field gauges from different makers; get a complete set from from one maker. For milsurps, CIP and SAAMI specs do not always match original milspecs. An ideal set of gauges should be designed from original milspecs unless you've had your rifle chamber changed to CIP or SAAMI specs.

I don't recommend the scotch tape method for measuring headspace either.

Just wondering what happened with the rework from Pacific? I just received a set from them and I don't think the were made to the proper specs. GO gauge won't close on any Argentine 1891 or 1909. Even the NO-GO feels to tight to be giving a proper reading.

[ak_milsurp]

I've been shooting "SF" 7.65 Argentine ammo dated 1975 and 1980 for years with no problems whatsoever....


It's all been sure fire and accurate...... Hell, I still have 700 rds of it...... My Argies love it.

Maybe the stuff you guys had was an anomoly......?

[Beanstrung]

Here's photos of some "SF 75" cartridges cut lengthwise. The corrosion can "weld" the bullet to the case, causing excessively high pressures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/beanstrung/Misc/DSCN0825a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/beanstrung/Misc/DSCN0824a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/beanstrung/Misc/DSCN0823a.jpg

[ak_milsurp]

HMMMMM! I'm gonna have to pull a few and check this out....

I don't doubt you... Just never had an issue.... I'll let you know what I found....


At the very least, lol I have 700 bullets to use. When life gives you lemons...... MAKE lemonade!

GRINS

[beeker77]

Here's photos of some "SF 75" cartridges cut lengthwise. The corrosion can "weld" the bullet to the case, causing excessively high pressures.

Pulled some of mine, too. I knew it wasn't a good sign when I shook the intact cartridges and there was no response (should sound kind of like a quiet 'maraca' if you know what I mean). Powder seems kind of sticky; not all of it emptied out. Smelled like a failed chemistry experiment. Bullet bases were green with light corrosion, but did not appear 'welded' to the brass, yet. I haven't shot this in several years, but as I remember I wasn't very impressed with the performance. I wonder if the projectiles can be tumbled clean and reloaded?

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr195/beeker77/7pt65x54_ARGYmilsurp_sf_projectiles.jpg

[Beanstrung]

Yours looks better than mine... I guess actual storage conditions for each individual crate are a factor. It's odd that all the corrosion is on the inside though. The exterior of my cases look fine. My powder was mixed with "green crumblies" when I dumped it out, and it was kind of "wet and sticky" like you describe... I wonder if the powder has some type of chemical reaction to the brass?

[Matt Norman]

I bought a bunch of the SF ammo 5+ years ago when it was very cheap. Had a problem with occasional excessive pressure (sticky bolt) and started pulling bullets. Eventually went through a couple hundred rounds and found dozens that were in green corrosion condition. Some bullets were indeed glued to the necks and were tough to pull. That has to had a lot of PSI's to any firing sequence.

I tumbled the bullets, cleaned the necks and interiors with brushes, and reloaded the salvaged powder with a 2 grain reduction in powder charge. Subsequently fired over 100 of them with no problem.

[NervousBreakdown]

I fired about 30 rounds of that SF ammo through my 1981 Argentine carbine at about 25 yards off the bench,, and printed some nice 10-inch keyholed groups....

A few months later,, I got a Lee starter kit,, and had my friend come over to teach me the reloading basics.... He has been reloading about as long as I have been alive,, and spent most of his range time during those 26 years developing and perfecting loads for Mausers... So,, he brought over some dies and components,, and I made 20 rounds of 7.65 Argentine under his guidance and instruction....

The next day,,, we took that same wild-shooting '91 of mine out to the range and set up a target at 50 yards... 3 rounds later,, we walked up to the target and were greeted by a 3/4 inch group.... The rounds performed equally well with his 1909 carbine,, although my '91 shot the best group of the day....

That was the day that I became truly sold on reloading,, and began to wonder what to do with that half a crate of SF ammo in my closet....

[Returnspring]

I only have just started on reloading, but my experience was similar -- excellent accuracy from reloads. I used a Lee loader tool, the kind you buy for $20 bucks and does everything you need. While not fast, it does work.

It was neat to shoot in the afternoon, reload in the evening, and go shoot again the following day.

[ammolab]

That recent Argentine ammo was made without any sealant at the Bullet/Case junction...and it was made for Papa Doc/Baby Doc in Haiti. A few decades in that hot HUMID region was not very kind to those rounds.

I have had a few good lots....(stored inside the Palace next to his Browning Water Cooled MGs?)

And a few bad ones to boot (Cases left out in the rain?).

[beeker77]

That was the day that I became truly sold on reloading,, and began to wonder what to do with that half a crate of SF ammo in my closet....

I"m in the same exact situation. Fortunately, my 12YO step-son likes nothing better than to sit on the floor watching TV and pulling down cartridges. He has done about 200 of my Argy SF so far with many hundred to go yet, and I tumble-clean the projectiles to reload in good brass (which I have yet to fire). My local recycler pays good $ for the SF brass. We toss pinches of the powder into the fireplace for cheap fireworks. :p

[Tiledude]

Oh, she's a kicker & she's loud!

I shot her for the first time today.. Argentine M91 Carbine using SF 7.65x54.

I was in standing position, open sites at 50 yards & first shot was 1/4" from bullseye, but never did I expect the percieved recoil that I got & was quite the muzzle flash too. :)

The remaining shots were scattered in loose groups, I suppose from flinch from anticipated recoil.. How do I correct that.. first time it's happened.

I need more information. If the argentine mauser is 7.65x53, why is the SF ammo 7.65x54? What's the differance in the two? If I found 7.65x53, would the percieved recoil be lower? The backward recoil to my shoulder don't really bother me, but I became concerned with the upward motion of the muzzle.

Also, I only brought 42 rounds with me to the range & 9 failed to fire.. Am I having a problem with the ammo, or do I need a new firing pin? The marks in the primer look same as the ones from fired cases, though a couple look poked lighter.

One round that failed to fire, I put it back in to try a second time & it fired, so, do you think I need a new firing pin, or is this common with this ammo?

First shot resulted in a split case at the neck.

Another shot somewhere in the middle resulted in a primer becoming entirely removed & had alot of gas blowback to my face & found remnants of the primer later when I cleaned.

The case from that one looks burned at the base.

What do you like to shoot for your argies?

It is gonna kick and it is going to be loud with all factory loads.

Short barreled carbines and full bore cartridges always do. Muzzle rise/whip is natural on these carbines as is more blast than on a long rifle. I own and shoot a number of milsurp carbines and all share this behavior in most points - All are loud! Wear plugs and muffs as far as hearing protection. Wear a shooting jacket or PAST recoil reducer to counter the recoil issue, and that might help your flinch. Also practice dry-firing it and focus on the target only.

I have a 7x57 FN Venezuelan carbine that is not too bad in recoil and muzzle lift but still really loud - Double ear protection helps this.

Use modern ammo. I handload for my M1891 Argentine long rifle and have used 7.65 PRVI Partizan loaded ammo with good results, but not for recoil reduction. I have had bad luck with surplus South American produced ammo so stick with modern stuff.

Good luck!

Tiledude

[blastit37]

Anyone tried the Privi brass? How about after market bullets? Heck, how about some loads?
I got the key hole results from my 91 carbine also, peferect edgewise bullet imprint at 100 Meters. I thought it was the barrel but maby it was the surplus ammo.

[Tiledude]

Anyone tried the Privi brass? How about after market bullets? Heck, how about some loads?
I got the key hole results from my 91 carbine also, peferect edgewise bullet imprint at 100 Meters. I thought it was the barrel but maby it was the surplus ammo.

I like the PRVI brass and have been using it along with Federal 8mm Mauser brass necked down and trimmed, then fire-formed.

Have had good luck with the Sierra .311 174 gr BTHPM and Hornady .3105 174 gr FMJBT in my Argentine M1891. I've had good luck with either of these bullets and 41.5 gr. IMR 4895 over a Federal 210 primer seated to 2.85" Also, Varget and IMR 4064 works very well too.

Tiledude

[bandook]

I use Prvi brass and find it to be OK, but I notice the case mouths are rough and sometmes bent when I get them, and I have to use a generous shell holder, as the case heads sometimes have brass chips "picked up" on them, making them a little hard to fit in a tight shell holder. All of this is fixable, and it sure beats buying Norma( which is excellent stuff, but very expensive) or making my own cases out of .30-06.
40.5 grains of IMR 4895 works great for me with a .312 dia. 174 grain Hornady bullet. It's fine in 09's and 91's. The accuracy is great in these rifles. All that is needed is younger eyes.

[PRIMO1]

Hi - wondering about the 7.65 Argentine headspace gauges listed in this forum.

I was considering getting a set from JGS toos, but at $95 I'm wondering if any other options exist - or if their gauges would suffer from the same problems listed on the Pacific versions. Did Pacific fix theirs? And does anyone know of anywhere else that sells them?

Thanks for the info!

[9 toes]

Made in San Francisco now i know why you had a few failure to fire, they may have smoked the powder and filled the case with weed and wern't aware of it > as i've been there and a whole lot of people are still a little out of it. I did get a few great tie-dye tee shirts just like the ones from the early '70's