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  1. #1
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    Default CAI CETME clones vs. CAI G3 clones

    Hi guys, Newbie Gadget here... and new owner of CAI Centurion 2000 built 06/1999 by Century on Hesse receiver.

    It appears that my "new to me" gewehr is NOT a CETME, but instead built primarily from HK parts on a Hesse stamped metal receiver... FMP bolt carrier, HK bolt, etc.

    So, my question is: Is this forum strictly for Spanish CETME based arms or are discussions pertaining to CAI G3 clones welcomed as well?

    Thanks in advance, Gadget
    Last edited by MrGadget; 05-06-2009 at 07:19 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    126

    Default

    Sorry dude, but if it is on a Hesse receiver I'd be real questionable who actually "built it". Hesse does not have a good reputation, although your's might be fine.

    For that matter, Century does have a good reputation either.

  3. #3
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    We're gonna need a bigger boat.
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    Default

    Go ahead and post. We're all friends here. Welcome to the forum.
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

  4. #4
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    MrGadget

    If your gun shoots straight and has the correct bolt gap, you should be fine. The receiver was made from the original HK Dies just like Special Weapons/Century/Hesse/Century[again] and now PTR-91 formally JLD. [I think that's how the move around went]

    I would make sure the Bolt gap is correct. And then go pop some holes in stuff!

    gw11

  5. #5
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    Location
    NW PA
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    MrGadget

    My feeling is being that the HK91/G3 is a direct descendent and very close copy of the Cetme it has a place here for discussion as well.

    BTW, I have a Century Cetme (LE) and a Century C91/G3…both are great guns IMO.

    Welcome aboard.

  6. #6
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Che View Post
    Sorry dude, but if it is on a Hesse receiver I'd be real questionable who actually "built it". Hesse does not have a good reputation, although your's might be fine.

    For that matter, Century does have a good reputation either.
    In my quest for information about this firearm, I came across the info presented by gw11 that Century did, at sometime in 1999 purchase the HK tooling from Hesse.

    I called Century with my serial number and asked if my receiver was a Hesse receiver with Century markings or truly a Century rolled receiver with remnants of Hesse markings. I was told, I believe honestly, that although my weapon was BUILT by Century (June 1999), it was built on a left over Hesse receiver that had been acquired at the time the tooling was purchased. The right side of the receiver is stamped "Centurion 2000 S/A", "Assembled by CAI, ST. ALB. VT", "Receiver by Hesse, ST. PAUL, MN", "Cal.308". The left side bears the serial number "G002xxx".

    It is also my understanding that some Hesse receivers were stamped from sub-spec metal, improperly heat treated, poorly welded, etc. Yet my untrained eye fails to discern any of the above. The welds are smooth and properly ground, and a genuine Stanag claw mount w/Hensoldt ZF-24 scope attaches solidly without adjustment, leading me to believe the the receiver is "in spec". Heat treat issues? Don't know how you could tell.

    I have an as yet unmeasured headspace gap between the bolt and the carrier, but a gap nonetheless. It feeds and functions OK with an alloy mag (stamped HK G3 and a date code) purchased with the weapon firing .308 Winchester 150gr SP (one stovepipe in 20rds).

    Yet, with German surplus 7.62x51 surplus ammo purchased from MGS and fed through NOS HK alloy magazines aquired (in wrap) from the same source, lodge in the feed ramp unless the magazine is held firmly upward into the mag well. Any suggestions as to how to get this old girl to properly feed without having to force the magazine up tight into the well?

    I also experienced 50% FTE with the milsurp ammo. :-( Any insight into how to cure these FTE issues would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks for your consideration, Gadget

    Edit: My issues are actually only FTE, as any round, once properly chambered does fire... somewhat high left, but very precise, although inaccurate (cuts a very tight group... just not POA), I believe I have adjustment available in the HK style rear drum sight.
    Last edited by MrGadget; 05-07-2009 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Most likely your ejector. Pull the operating handle back and observe the front of the bolt through the ejection port. The ejector should fill most of the cut out in the bottom of the bolt head when about flush with its face. Could be a loose pivot pin, wear or someone filing part of the ejector off. Some of these rifles were also made impoperly in that the trigger housing, which includes the ejector, sit too low in the front. Hope this helps, Steve.

  8. #8
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    CT
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    Default

    First off, Check Bolt Gap. Too little Gap will give you problems ejecting among other things.

    Clean the flutes in the Chamber.

    Replace Butt Stock Return Spring.

    If your Mag has to be forced up to function. I would guess it is low to the rear. Try other brands of
    mags.
    And Last for now, Check your Bolt Gap First!


    gw11
    Last edited by gw11; 05-06-2009 at 06:23 PM.

  9. #9

    Default

    Welcome to the forum!

    One our fellow mods has a Hesse reciever model and has not any issues either.
    Free manuals for the CETME and the G3 family!
    Now manuals for the AK and SKS family of rifles!

  10. #10
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    Dec 1969
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    MrGadget

    If your gun shoots straight and has the correct bolt gap, you should be fine. The receiver was made from the original HK Dies just like Special Weapons/Century/Hesse/Century[again] and now PTR-91 formally JLD. [I think that's how the move around went]

    I would make sure the Bolt gap is correct. And then go pop some holes in stuff!

    gw11
    What hk tooling does Century have? JLD/ PTR has the old Indep/ FMP equipment but who's does century have. As far as I know Hesse Was never a contract 9x builder of HK guns and nor was SW.

  11. #11
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    Default

    Personally I get headaches trying to remember all this crap.

    Lets try this!

    JLD/PTR-91 FMP Tooling

    Heckler & Koch's receiver tooling was also sold to the American company Ohio Rapid Fire, which is in the process of setting up to produce receiver.


    Third Party Receivers

    Federal Arms

    FA91
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. US manufacture. Aluminum. Integrated Weaver rail.
    FMP

    (FMP receiver)
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. Portugese manufacture. Stamped steel.
    Hellenic Arms

    (Hellenic receiver)
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. Greek manufacture. Stamped steel. Used in Springfield Armory SAR-3 and SAR-8. (No longer imported?)
    Hesse Arms

    H91
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. US manufacture. Stamped steel.
    Special Weapons LLC

    SW3
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. US manufacture. Cast steel. Rights purchased 1999 by Century Arms.

    SW5
    HK94 clone. 9mm NATO. Cast steel. US manufacture.

    7.62 NATO Semi-Automatic (HK91 Clones)

    Century Arms

    Centurion 99 Sporter Rifle
    HK91 clone. Federal Arms FA91 aluminum receiver. Integrated Weaver rail.
    Centurion 99 Sporter Rifle (Century Arms)

    Centurion 2000
    HK91 clone. Hesse H91 receiver.
    Federal Arms

    FA91
    HK91 clone. Federal Arms aluminum FA91 receiver. Integrated Weaver rail.
    FJ Vollmer

    HK51 Semi-auto conversion
    HK91 converted with MP5 handguard, shorter cocking tube. 16 inch barrel.
    FMP

    G3/S / G3S
    HK91 clone. FMP receiver. (distinguishing traits?)

    XG3/S / XG3S
    HK91 clone. FMP receiver. (distinguishing traits?)

    SLG-95 / SLG95
    HK91 clone. FMP receiver. (distinguishing traits?)
    Hesse Arms

    H91
    HK91 clone. Hesse receiver.
    H91 Rifle (Hesse Arms)

    H91MR (H91 Marksman Rifle)
    HK91 clone. Hesse receiver. Strengthening rails welded in. Wide handguard. Adjustable buttstock.
    H91 Marksman Rifle (Hesse Arms)

    H91PR (H91 Precision Rifle)
    HK91 clone. Hesse receiver. Strengthening rails welded in. 26 inch floated barrel. Adjustable buttstock. Target pistol grip.
    H91 Precision Rifle (Hesse Arms)
    Special Weapons LLC

    SW3
    HK91 clone. Special Weapons receiver. Rights purchased 1999 by Century Arms.

    SW3BF
    HK21E clone in semi-auto. Special Weapons receiver. Project on hold.
    Springfield Armory

    SAR-3
    HK91 clone. Hellenic receiver. Fixed or retractable stock, flash hider. Banned from US import 1989.

    SAR-8 (old)
    HK91 clone. Hellenic receiver. Thumbhole stock. Discontinued.

    SAR-8 (new)
    HK91 clone. Cast aluminum receiver with integrated Weaver rail. Pistol grip, slim forearm, green furniture. Introduced 1999.

    5.56 NATO Semi-Automatic (HK93 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    HK53 Semi-auto conversion
    HK93 converted with MP5 handguard, shorter cocking tube. 16 inch barrel.

    9mm NATO Semi-Automatic (HK94 Clones)

    Special Weapons LLC

    SW5
    HK94 clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    SW5 9mm Sporting Rifle (Special Weapons LLC)

    Other Caliber Semi-Automatic

    Fleming Firearms

    HK92
    HK91 rechambered for 7.62x39 Soviet.
    Special Weapons LLC

    SW12
    12-gauge shotgun. Special Weapons receiver. Not yet available.
    SW12 12 gauge Shotgun (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW45
    .45 ACP sporting rifle. Special Weapons receiver. Similar design to HK94.
    SW45 45acp Sporting Rifle (Special Weapons LLC)

    NFA / LEO 7.62 NATO (G3 / HK51 / HK21 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    Model 21
    Belt-fed 7.62 NATO HK21 clone. Also available with PSG1 sniper stock.

    Model 21K Machine Pistol
    Belt-fed 7.62 NATO pistol with 7 inch barrel, stockless butt plate, quick-change barrel, detachable belt-feed ammunition box from HK21E.

    Model 51
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 9 inch barrel.

    Model 51B
    Belt-fed 7.62 NATO, 9 inch barrel, retractable stock, HK53 handguards.
    Fleming Firearms

    51
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 8.9 inch barrel.

    51K
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 4.7 inch barrel.

    G3A2
    HK91 converted to full-auto, fixed stock.

    G3A3
    HK91 converted to full-auto, retractable stock.

    G3K
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 11.7 inch barrel.

    G3SD
    HK91 converted to full-auto, with silencer.

    G3KSD
    HK91 converted to full-auto, short-barreled, with silencer.

    HK21K
    Belt-fed machine gun with 12-inch barrel and retractable stock.

    NFA / LEO 5.56 NATO (HK33 / HK53 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    Model 53
    HK93 converted to full-auto, short barrel.
    Fleming Firearms

    NFA / LEO 9mm (MP5 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    MP5
    HK94 converted to full-auto. (MP5A2 = fixed stock, MP5A3 = retractable)

    MP5K
    SP89 converted to full-auto, "K" handgrip added to make MP5K clone.
    Fleming Firearms

    MP5
    HK94 converted to full-auto. (MP5A2 = fixed stock, MP5A3 = retractable)

    MP5K
    HK94 converted to full-auto, MP5K configuration. One inch longer than HK's MP5K, but can be changed between Fleming end cap, MP5 fixed stock, or MP5 telescoping stock.

    MP5SD
    HK94 converted to full-auto, supressed.
    Special Weapons LLC

    SWA-5
    Full-auto, fixed stock MP5A2 clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5 LE
    Semi-auto, fixed stock MP5SFA2 clone. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-5-C
    Full-auto, retractable stock MP5A3 clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5-C LE
    Semi-auto, retractable stock MP5SFA3 clone. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-5-P
    Full-auto, stockless MP5K clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5-P LE
    Semi-auto, stockless MP5K clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-5-K
    Full-auto, folding stock MP5K-PDW clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5-K
    Semi-auto, folding stock MP5K-PDW clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    NFA / LEO Other Caliber

    Special Weapons LLC

    SWA-45
    Full-auto, fixed stock, similar to MP5A2. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45 LE
    Semi-auto, fixed stock, similar to MP5SFA2. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-45-C
    Full-auto, retractable stock, similar to MP5A3. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45-C LE
    Semi-auto, retractable stock, similar to MP5SFA3. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-45-P
    Full-auto, stockless, similar to MP5K. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45-P LE
    Semi-auto, stockless, similar to MP5K. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-45-K
    Full-auto, folding stock, similar to MP5K-PDW. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45-K
    Semi-auto, folding stock, similar to MP5K-PDW. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    382

    Default

    The only company in the states I know that is using licensed Hk tooling is PTR, my understanding is the rest are not and that is why they are almost always out of spec. Now EBO and FMP are contract build HK's and are always to spec

  13. #13
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    Location
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    Default

    Copied from ORF Add

    ORF Mfg Hk91/G3 Receiver Flat
    Stamped from genuine Hk manufactured G3 dies. This is NOT a firearm and can be shipped in all states. Material is the same as used in Germany and Portugal, CR , ASTM A 1006 DDS Steel .

  14. #14
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    MrGadget

    The Heat Treated part that you would be concerned with is the Trunion. The Rear Locking Lug section is the most important area. If yours has been incorrectly treated [which I don't remember Hesse having a problem with] It would show as mushrooming in the Roller Lock Path.
    JLD welded their first 100 PTR's by Mig and at too hot of a setting, which annealed the Trunion after welding. As I said I don't think this was a problem with Hesse.

    gw11

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    Personally I get headaches trying to remember all this crap.

    Lets try this!

    JLD/PTR-91 FMP Tooling

    Heckler & Koch's receiver tooling was also sold to the American company Ohio Rapid Fire, which is in the process of setting up to produce receiver.


    Third Party Receivers

    Federal Arms

    FA91
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. US manufacture. Aluminum. Integrated Weaver rail.
    FMP

    (FMP receiver)
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. Portugese manufacture. Stamped steel.
    Hellenic Arms

    (Hellenic receiver)
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. Greek manufacture. Stamped steel. Used in Springfield Armory SAR-3 and SAR-8. (No longer imported?)
    Hesse Arms

    H91
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. US manufacture. Stamped steel.
    Special Weapons LLC

    SW3
    HK91 clone. 7.62 NATO. US manufacture. Cast steel. Rights purchased 1999 by Century Arms.

    SW5
    HK94 clone. 9mm NATO. Cast steel. US manufacture.

    7.62 NATO Semi-Automatic (HK91 Clones)

    Century Arms

    Centurion 99 Sporter Rifle
    HK91 clone. Federal Arms FA91 aluminum receiver. Integrated Weaver rail.
    Centurion 99 Sporter Rifle (Century Arms)

    Centurion 2000
    HK91 clone. Hesse H91 receiver.
    Federal Arms

    FA91
    HK91 clone. Federal Arms aluminum FA91 receiver. Integrated Weaver rail.
    FJ Vollmer

    HK51 Semi-auto conversion
    HK91 converted with MP5 handguard, shorter cocking tube. 16 inch barrel.
    FMP

    G3/S / G3S
    HK91 clone. FMP receiver. (distinguishing traits?)

    XG3/S / XG3S
    HK91 clone. FMP receiver. (distinguishing traits?)

    SLG-95 / SLG95
    HK91 clone. FMP receiver. (distinguishing traits?)
    Hesse Arms

    H91
    HK91 clone. Hesse receiver.
    H91 Rifle (Hesse Arms)

    H91MR (H91 Marksman Rifle)
    HK91 clone. Hesse receiver. Strengthening rails welded in. Wide handguard. Adjustable buttstock.
    H91 Marksman Rifle (Hesse Arms)

    H91PR (H91 Precision Rifle)
    HK91 clone. Hesse receiver. Strengthening rails welded in. 26 inch floated barrel. Adjustable buttstock. Target pistol grip.
    H91 Precision Rifle (Hesse Arms)
    Special Weapons LLC

    SW3
    HK91 clone. Special Weapons receiver. Rights purchased 1999 by Century Arms.

    SW3BF
    HK21E clone in semi-auto. Special Weapons receiver. Project on hold.
    Springfield Armory

    SAR-3
    HK91 clone. Hellenic receiver. Fixed or retractable stock, flash hider. Banned from US import 1989.

    SAR-8 (old)
    HK91 clone. Hellenic receiver. Thumbhole stock. Discontinued.

    SAR-8 (new)
    HK91 clone. Cast aluminum receiver with integrated Weaver rail. Pistol grip, slim forearm, green furniture. Introduced 1999.

    5.56 NATO Semi-Automatic (HK93 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    HK53 Semi-auto conversion
    HK93 converted with MP5 handguard, shorter cocking tube. 16 inch barrel.

    9mm NATO Semi-Automatic (HK94 Clones)

    Special Weapons LLC

    SW5
    HK94 clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    SW5 9mm Sporting Rifle (Special Weapons LLC)

    Other Caliber Semi-Automatic

    Fleming Firearms

    HK92
    HK91 rechambered for 7.62x39 Soviet.
    Special Weapons LLC

    SW12
    12-gauge shotgun. Special Weapons receiver. Not yet available.
    SW12 12 gauge Shotgun (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW45
    .45 ACP sporting rifle. Special Weapons receiver. Similar design to HK94.
    SW45 45acp Sporting Rifle (Special Weapons LLC)

    NFA / LEO 7.62 NATO (G3 / HK51 / HK21 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    Model 21
    Belt-fed 7.62 NATO HK21 clone. Also available with PSG1 sniper stock.

    Model 21K Machine Pistol
    Belt-fed 7.62 NATO pistol with 7 inch barrel, stockless butt plate, quick-change barrel, detachable belt-feed ammunition box from HK21E.

    Model 51
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 9 inch barrel.

    Model 51B
    Belt-fed 7.62 NATO, 9 inch barrel, retractable stock, HK53 handguards.
    Fleming Firearms

    51
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 8.9 inch barrel.

    51K
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 4.7 inch barrel.

    G3A2
    HK91 converted to full-auto, fixed stock.

    G3A3
    HK91 converted to full-auto, retractable stock.

    G3K
    HK91 converted to full-auto, 11.7 inch barrel.

    G3SD
    HK91 converted to full-auto, with silencer.

    G3KSD
    HK91 converted to full-auto, short-barreled, with silencer.

    HK21K
    Belt-fed machine gun with 12-inch barrel and retractable stock.

    NFA / LEO 5.56 NATO (HK33 / HK53 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    Model 53
    HK93 converted to full-auto, short barrel.
    Fleming Firearms

    NFA / LEO 9mm (MP5 Clones)

    FJ Vollmer

    MP5
    HK94 converted to full-auto. (MP5A2 = fixed stock, MP5A3 = retractable)

    MP5K
    SP89 converted to full-auto, "K" handgrip added to make MP5K clone.
    Fleming Firearms

    MP5
    HK94 converted to full-auto. (MP5A2 = fixed stock, MP5A3 = retractable)

    MP5K
    HK94 converted to full-auto, MP5K configuration. One inch longer than HK's MP5K, but can be changed between Fleming end cap, MP5 fixed stock, or MP5 telescoping stock.

    MP5SD
    HK94 converted to full-auto, supressed.
    Special Weapons LLC

    SWA-5
    Full-auto, fixed stock MP5A2 clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5 LE
    Semi-auto, fixed stock MP5SFA2 clone. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-5-C
    Full-auto, retractable stock MP5A3 clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5-C LE
    Semi-auto, retractable stock MP5SFA3 clone. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-5-P
    Full-auto, stockless MP5K clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5-P LE
    Semi-auto, stockless MP5K clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-5-K
    Full-auto, folding stock MP5K-PDW clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-5-K
    Semi-auto, folding stock MP5K-PDW clone. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police 9mm (Special Weapons LLC)

    NFA / LEO Other Caliber

    Special Weapons LLC

    SWA-45
    Full-auto, fixed stock, similar to MP5A2. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45 LE
    Semi-auto, fixed stock, similar to MP5SFA2. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-45-C
    Full-auto, retractable stock, similar to MP5A3. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45-C LE
    Semi-auto, retractable stock, similar to MP5SFA3. Special Weapons receiver. Short or 16 inch barrel available.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-45-P
    Full-auto, stockless, similar to MP5K. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45-P LE
    Semi-auto, stockless, similar to MP5K. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SWA-45-K
    Full-auto, folding stock, similar to MP5K-PDW. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    SW-45-K
    Semi-auto, folding stock, similar to MP5K-PDW. Special Weapons receiver.
    Police (Special Weapons LLC)

    You were not kidding about the headache. That is a lot of good information that you posted.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    433

    Default

    Cut and Paste is a lot easier than memory. And mine keeps getting thinner and thinner.

    gw11

  17. #17
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    Dec 1969
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    Default

    Here is the list of contract builders of HK 9x series rifles that I was talking about, this is from good old wiki

    The G3 was and in some cases continues to be produced under license in: France (MAS), Greece (Hellenic Arms Industry), Iran (Defense Industries Organization), Mexico, Myanmar, Norway (Kongsberg V├ąpenfabrikk), Pakistan (Pakistan Ordnance Factories), Portugal (FBP), Saudi Arabia, Sweden (FFV), Thailand, Turkey (MKEK) and the United Kingdom (Royal Ordnance).[5]

  18. #18
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    Default

    Correct me if I'm wrong!
    But I believe that list is of the actual HK Backed Production Licensing of the Complete Rifle.

    We only have the Dies or Old Dies for the Receiver's

    I don't remember all the claims by the different US Receiver makers, but as long as they get made, that is the point that maters.
    gw11

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    382

    Default

    Yes the list is contact builders. On a side note, Todd Bailey said he reverse engineered all his rifles on a post he put up on his board a few years back so I am not sure those were made from HK dies. to go further he is being sued for IP violations and trade dress from HK who knows how that will go. People are wondering if HK is going to shut down all clone builders, they went after vector and now sw/Coarie

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGadget View Post
    Hi guys, Newbie Gadget here... and new owner of CAI Centurion 2000 built 06/1999 by Century on Hesse receiver.

    It appears that my "new to me" gewehr is NOT a CETME, but instead built primarily from HK parts on a Hesse stamped metal receiver... FMP bolt carrier, HK bolt, etc.

    So, my question is: Is this forum strictly for Spanish CETME based arms or are discussions pertaining to CAI G3 clones welcomed as well?

    Thanks in advance, Gadget
    how did you establish the guns date of build?

  21. #21
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    High Plains, Salt Valley
    Posts
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by af masterson View Post
    how did you establish the guns date of build?
    I called Century Arms contact # on their website. My first call was answered by a young (sounding) lady who it seemed would have been happier doing something else... she became instantly defensive when I said I had a G3 build on a Hesse receiver. Nonetheless, she provided me with a build date once I assured her that I hadn't called to complain, I was just searching for information.

    This same information was confirmed during another conversation I had with another CS rep, a male this time, about two weeks ago.

    Gadget

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    382

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGadget View Post
    I called Century Arms contact # on their website. My first call was answered by a young (sounding) lady who it seemed would have been happier doing something else... she became instantly defensive when I said I had a G3 build on a Hesse receiver. Nonetheless, she provided me with a build date once I assured her that I hadn't called to complain, I was just searching for information.

    This same information was confirmed during another conversation I had with another CS rep, a male this time, about two weeks ago.

    Gadget
    they had a lot of problems with receivers made out of spec, bolt heads ground and horrible welds. I am sure that they are tired of hearing about it. check out HKpro's clone section as well as militaryfirearm.com they both have great sections on these guns

  23. #23
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    Default Update:

    Can't find my dang feeler gauge set, but the headspace gap on a dry fired chamber is at least .008", as two strips of copier paper (~.004") easily slip into the gap. The charging lever gap is about twice that, cams over easily, slams forward freely w/o peening. So it would appear that from a cursory examination, my gewehr is still in tolerance.

    I had opportunity to run a couple more mags through it yesterday. Here are the results:

    I. New NOS HK G3 alloy mag (don't remember the date stamp, but it is late 80's/early 90's) still fails to seat tightly, must be pushed up into mag well to function.

    II. HK G3 alloy mag (came with rifle, date stamp mid-60's), functions well, one stovepipe in 20 rds.

    III. HK stamped G3 steel mag (20rd, straight profile, not curved) functioned well also. Once FTE. spent round literally reversed itself in ejection port, front to rear. Canted gun to right, released pressure on bolt carrier, spent case fell out, fresh round chambered... continued firing.

    Ammo: German milsurp purchased in bulk from MGS (sponsor), FTW, TX. Gun was fully field stripped and cleaned before and after each magazine. (Didn't want chamber fouling to have any bearing on this test.)

    Firing position: Seated on grass, elbows on knees, foreend supported by left hand only.

    Curious: Would opening up the lips on these new NOS mags allow the round to ride higher in the mag, thereby improving function?

    Observations:

    I. All recovered cases appear to show properly fluted chamber. Little or no case mouth dent. Mild dent on side of case ahead of rim. Rim not excessively chewed by extractor.
    II. Need to order more ammo from MGS. Feeding problems appear to be magazine related, can't blame the ammo. It's Berdan primed, but oh well.
    III. Need to order pairs of both +2 and +4 rollers from RTG for as I will probably be needing them soon enough.
    IV. Already have spare firing pin & bolt locking piece, checked for fit and function.
    V. Also should probably get a spare extractor & spring, and an ejector arm & pin... just in case.

    Thanks you all (especially gw11), for bearing with me and sharing your observations. Additional comments are welcome.

    Regards, Gadget
    Last edited by MrGadget; 05-25-2009 at 11:57 AM.

  24. #24
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    Default

    I would install +.004 rollers and a New Return Spring.
    And if you mags don't look to be seating like below, you can build up the Mag release with weld to get it to hold the mag up higher. Or maybe your release is sloppy in it's slot?

    gw11

  25. #25
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    MrGadget
    And by the way, with all your other info you provided, your .008" Gap should be fine for the next 10,000 rounds or so. [knock on wood]

    gw11

  26. #26
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    I would install +.004 rollers and a New Return Spring.
    And if you mags don't look to be seating like below, you can build up the Mag release with weld to get it to hold the mag up higher. Or maybe your release is sloppy in it's slot?

    gw11
    Hmmmm... Check the mag release for slop... What a concept! (Dang I feel stupid!)

    Curious... How would a weak recoil spring (not buffer spring, right) affect the ejection of a spent round? I would think that would have more to do with the smooth chambering of the next/fresh round?

  27. #27
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    If your return spring is weak, your carrier will not go back far enough and when it returns it will not move with as much force as it needs to strip and chamber. So anyway the Shell may not have had enough time to cool in between rounds for it to be easily removed from the chamber. When this happens the complete sequence is slowed and altered and a failure to feed/extract and or bounce around in your receiver.
    That gave me a head ache!
    Too many Beers!

    gw11

  28. #28
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    One more beer
    and I mostly want to say that your Mag issue, if it is too low at the rear will reduce much of the force needed to complete the cycle. This can also interfere with the smooth removal the next round as well as the insertion of the next round. Which all take away power from your return springs.
    And also, your ejected shells should be fling 15-20 feet to your 1:30 to 2 o'clock. Regardless of their dented condition.

    gw11

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    One more beer...
    On me! ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    ...also, your ejected shells should be fling 15-20 feet to your 1:30 to 2 o'clock.
    Oh yeah...20' at a minimum! I wouldn't want to be standing off the starboard bow of this flinger. It flat spits 'em out there (at least the ones that manage to clear the port :-( G

    If you haven't guessed by now, I am nothing less than enamored by this piece of shoulder fired artillery. Up until now (with the exception of a Skinny-Mini and Marlin 30-30), I've had nothing but a rack full of bolt guns...OSOK. G
    Last edited by MrGadget; 05-25-2009 at 01:14 PM.

  30. #30
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    For the cost of a return spring $8.00 at http://www.robertrtg.com you would be no worse off. HK is the same as the Cetme.

    I would also assume that you made sure the Carrier is not meeting with any obstacles on it's path in or out of your receiver.

    gw11

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    For the cost of a return spring $8.00 at http://www.robertrtg.com you would be no worse off.
    Will add that to the list of parts to order... I've actually been considering a complete recoil spring/housing assembly in order to mount a surplus green stock and handguard. (I also lust for a wide foreend w/bipod.)

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    I would also assume that you made sure the Carrier is not meeting with any obstacles on it's path in or out of your receiver.
    Yep! With the receiver held inverted at even a modest angle, the bolt carrier assembly slides in easily and locks up with the trunion under its own weight. Likewise, on disassembly, just a click of cam over by the charge handle and the bolt will literally fall out of the receiver.

    Yet when inserted fully by hand, there is very minimal (if any) "slop"... the carrier does not "rattle around" in the receiver... It reciprocates as though it were riding on greased rails. If Hesse has a bad rep for poorly spec'd receivers, you couldn't prove it by me!

    Enthralled by the G3 mystic... Gadget
    Last edited by MrGadget; 05-25-2009 at 02:44 PM.

  32. #32
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    Default

    Hesse did have the occasional blunder, but I heard many good stories also.

    gw11

  33. #33

    Default MrGadget;

    I recently traded my CETME for a Century CAI-3. This is an early cast stainless receiver built on a G3 parts kit. Serial #B00430.
    The issue I found was that the magazines were loose and it would not feed reliably. The fix for me was to remove the mag. catch and solder a thin piece of steel, about seven to ten thousandths thick [flat spring stock] on the top of the catch/latch. Then I had to relieve the slot in the receiver to match with a file to accomodate the higher latch. Runs like a good semi auto should now. You could also just weld a little metal on the catch and file to fit.
    I bought a box of 104 'beater' G 3 magazines from RTG and they all fit perfectly, though the remaining one CETME magazine I have fits a little loose but does feed good.
    I have always been one of those that has altered the magwell to fit the mags, as opposed to altering the magazines. Works for me.
    Life is good

  34. #34
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    gw11... Previously in this thread you responded to my queries regarding feeding issues:

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    If your Mag has to be forced up to function. I would guess it is low to the rear. Try other brands of mags.

    gw11
    In another thread, you responded to Brian's issues as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11
    With the pics below:
    #1 does your mag go all the way in 'like this' or are the Mag Lips away from the Receiver or uneven.[showing that the mag is not seated fully!
    #2 Look at the top Horizontal edge of the Lower frame in relation to the Side lines of the Receiver. Are they equal [parrallel] or slanted, or is there more space [is your Lower Frame Lower than in the pic] ?
    #3 [snip... not relavant to my question, G]

    And the Barrel does not have a Feed Ramp.

    Attached Thumbnails

    gw11
    I believe that my feeding problems may be very similar to Brian's, but ask that they be addressed here as I didn't want to hijack Brian's thread.

    What I believe I am seeing is NOT that the BACK of magazine is low, but rather the FRONT!

    The index indentations (lips?) on the magazines (both new and old) appears to be seating up tight to the base of the mag well at the rear, where the magazine itself is engaged by the magazine catch. The "play" (vertical only, there is no side to side slop, mag well is actually a little "snug") appears to be at the FRONT, where the notch on the front of the magazine is supposed to engage a lip (or catch...whatever) on the inside front of the mag well (at the rear of the trunion?), thus allowinging a small amount of vertical gap between the magazine indexing indentations and the forward edge of the magawell. If I push the bootom of the magazine forward and up, this gap of course, is eliminated... but it sure is an inconvenient way to hold a rifle!

    This "low in front" situation, seems to cause the bullet to ram jam itself against the rear of the trunion, resulting in a fail-to-feed. (Pretty much the same thing Brian was trying to describe). The bolt is held open with the bolt face trying to strip the cartridge, the nose of the cartridge remains wedged against the trunion (rear of chamber)... everything comes to a screeching halt. :

    Anyway, since ALL my dozen or so magazines, new and old, aluminum and steel, exhibit this malady to varying in degrees, I have to assume that my problem lies with the forward magazine catch at the trailing edge of the trunion inside the magawell.

    Why would this be occurring, and what can be done to fix it?

    Thanks in advance, Gadget
    Last edited by MrGadget; 11-17-2009 at 06:10 PM.

  35. #35
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gw11 View Post
    Hesse did have the occasional blunder, but I heard many good stories also.
    HESSE/VULCAN do blunder, but that blunder is in actually making a firearm that works.

  36. #36
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    Default

    Based upon the lack of response, I should assume there is no cure for a magazine catch that sits "low in front"?

    Gadget

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