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Thread: M1934 with Crown/RE & FAG marks question.

  1. #1
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    Default M1934 with Crown/RE & FAG marks question.

    I looked at a Beretta 1939 dated M1934 pistol and have a question on the frame markings.
    The left rear side of the frame tang had the Crown/RE, while in the same location but on the right side of the frame, it had a FAG/32 stamp.

    What is the meaning of the FAG/32 stamp?

    Regards, Ned

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    Are you sure it was FAG 32? Should be FAG 39. "FAG" on Carcanos is the abbreviation for Fabbrica d'Army Gardone and a date..The "FAG" marking is often seen on rebuilt rifles.
    It probably stands for the same on a Beretta but I have no proof of this. It is odd that a Beretta would have a Gardone factory marking. The "FAG" has only been noted on Model 1934 (380) Beretta pistols with slide dates of 1939 and 1940, all are also "RE" marked.
    Which bring up another question, why would there be a FAG 39 date on a 1940 pistol? Could be they just kept using the FAG 39 stamp in 1940. But why was the Gardone Weapons Factory marking Beretta pistols in 1939 and 1940. I don't see any reason for Gardone to be rebuilding Berettas, unless they were helping them with production in 1939/40. There are a lot of other oddly marked Model 1934 pistols in 1939 and 1940 in the "FAG" pistol serial range, all the pistols in 1939/40 are not "FAG" marked.
    If you see that pistol again double check the FAG 32 marking.
    David Franchi
    Last edited by Franchi; 05-29-2009 at 01:15 PM.

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    Hi David,
    I'm going to go look at the pistol again, as I'm thinking of buying it.
    The FAG number sure looked like a 32, I looked closely at it because of the 1939 date on the slide. (but I could be wrong on the 32, crummy glasses and no magnafier with me at that moment.....)
    Ned
    Last edited by bayoned; 05-29-2009 at 03:28 PM.

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    David, you're right.
    The right side frame stamp is actually Crown/FAG/39, so it is the same date as the left side slide date of 1939. (Fascist date XVII)
    The serial number is 770514, all matching numbers.
    The pistol is in the original Beretta finish with the slide in the plum tone.

    How does this pistol fit into the known '39 & '40 dated FAG marked guns?

    Regards, Ned

  5. #5
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    Ned, Went through my serial records and found the following.
    I forgot about the "FAG 39" pistols with 1938 slide dates, which only brings up another anomaly, FAG 39 on a 1938 dated slide.
    My records indicate (by reported serials) the lowest FAG 39 marked pistol is 722459 slide date 1938 XVI, then all reported pistols are FAG 39 marked to 775076 slide date 1939 XVII, from 775076 until the last FAG 39 pistol reported 832091 slide date 1940 XVIII, the FAG 39 pistols are mixed in with Italian commercial marked pistols, German commercial "Geco" marked pistols, and pistols without any inspection or acceptance marking at all which have a "V" prefix serial number. Serial 834672 slide date 1940 XVIII has standard Italian "RE" and (IVU) markings.

    CAN ANYONE ADD ANY MORE TO THESE SERIAL RANGES?
    David

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    David,
    There is another FAG/38 M1934 just posted over on Jan Still's side of Gunboards.
    It falls within your established range of serials.

    It's been suggested on another site that the FAG stamp might be a result of a re-furbishment by Gardone.
    I agree with you regarding an FAG rebuild, .....An arsenal refurbishment by FAG in the same year that the gun was originally manufactured doesn't seem to make sense to me. This is a pistol, and typically wouldn't receive anywhere near the wear and tear of a rifle.

    Regards, Ned
    Last edited by bayoned; 06-01-2009 at 07:34 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franchi View Post
    Ned, Went through my serial records and found the following.
    I forgot about the "FAG 39" pistols with 1938 slide dates, which only brings up another anomaly, FAG 39 on a 1938 dated slide.
    My records indicate (by reported serials) the lowest FAG 39 marked pistol is 722459 slide date 1938 XVI, then all reported pistols are FAG 39 marked to 775076 slide date 1939 XVII, from 775076 until the last FAG 39 pistol reported 832091 slide date 1940 XVIII, the FAG 39 pistols are mixed in with Italian commercial marked pistols, German commercial "Geco" marked pistols, and pistols without any inspection or acceptance marking at all which have a "V" prefix serial number. Serial 834672 slide date 1940 XVIII has standard Italian "RE" and (IVU) markings.

    CAN ANYONE ADD ANY MORE TO THESE SERIAL RANGES?
    David
    David,

    I can help expand your range here. I've seen a few FAG/39 pistols between your 722459 and 775076 examples. I've seen a Commercial sn. 773983 without FAG markings (P.S.F. 1939 and 1939.XVII) and 755066 (RE and 1939.XVII) but its frame markings were so faint that perhaps they were there not in the images. At the upper end I've seen 833090 RE and FAG/39 marked with slide 1940.XVIII. I've not seen any (IVU) and FAG/39 markings together. Your mentioning of 834672 was to illustrate what example?

    Dan P.
    Last edited by Berettamen; 06-03-2009 at 10:43 AM.

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    Galilmen, Thanks for extending the range.
    834672 was to show the possible high end of "FAG" marked pistols.
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franchi View Post
    Are you sure it was FAG 32? Should be FAG 39. "FAG" on Carcanos is the abbreviation for Fabbrica d'Army Gardone and a date..The "FAG" marking is often seen on rebuilt rifles.
    It probably stands for the same on a Beretta but I have no proof of this. It is odd that a Beretta would have a Gardone factory marking. The "FAG" has only been noted on Model 1934 (380) Beretta pistols with slide dates of 1939 and 1940, all are also "RE" marked.
    Which bring up another question, why would there be a FAG 39 date on a 1940 pistol? Could be they just kept using the FAG 39 stamp in 1940. But why was the Gardone Weapons Factory marking Beretta pistols in 1939 and 1940. I don't see any reason for Gardone to be rebuilding Berettas, unless they were helping them with production in 1939/40. There are a lot of other oddly marked Model 1934 pistols in 1939 and 1940 in the "FAG" pistol serial range, all the pistols in 1939/40 are not "FAG" marked.
    If you see that pistol again double check the FAG 32 marking.
    David Franchi
    David, I agree that the FAG/39 stamp was not used to indicate refurbishment. Pistols less than 1 year old would not have been ready for rebuilding (and most of these pistols look to have the original finish on them) especially all of them from 722000 through 830,000! That's over 100,000 units ready for refurb. at less than a year's age!

    My feeling is that this stamp was used to indicate military acceptance at that location. The fact that this mark was only used for one year does not bother me either. There did not seem to be very many consistent methods of marking pistols, i.e., Navy CM, C over M, CF or RM stamps, and this would be another example. Great to read your threads and specifics. Dan P.
    Last edited by Berettamen; 06-05-2009 at 09:50 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franchi View Post
    Galilmen, Thanks for extending the range.
    834672 was to show the possible high end of "FAG" marked pistols.
    David
    David, I never seen (IVU) and FAG/39 stamps on the same pistol. I'd be very curious to see that. Do you have any images of this sn. 834672? Dan P.

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    Dan,
    834672 was to show the possible high end of "FAG" marked pistols. It is (IVU) RE marked. I listed it to show that the "FAG" pistols could possibly go as high as #834671.
    David

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franchi View Post
    Dan,
    834672 was to show the possible high end of "FAG" marked pistols. It is (IVU) RE marked. I listed it to show that the "FAG" pistols could possibly go as high as #834671.
    David
    David,
    Forgive my thickheadedness. I see this is the first of the pistols WITHOUT the FAG marking. Hmm. Perhaps I have seen one below this as I own 833462 without FAG. However it is a commercial (1940.XVIII, P.S.F 1940) pistol. Otherwise the highest 1934 I've seen with FAG/39 and RE is the sn.833090 (1940 XVIII slide).
    Dan P.
    Last edited by Berettamen; 06-09-2009 at 10:30 AM.

  13. #13
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    Franchi, I was doing some research on my modest collection of Berettas and trying to figure out the meaning of Crown/FAG/39 on the right tang of a Beretta I acquired earlier in the year. The slide is marked P. BERETTA-CAL.9 CORTO-Mo1934-BREVETTATO / GARDONE V.T. 1939-XVII and the left tang has a Crown/RE. I noticed in this thread that you cite the serial number upper limit of 775076 for FAG 39 with a 1939 XVII marked slides. My Crown/FAG/39 stamped Beretta 1934 with the 1939 XVII slide is serial number 776343. This should extend the upper limit of the range over 1,000. I can post photos if required. I'm still not certain I understand the meaning of the Crown/FAG/39 stamp.
    Last edited by Like_Old_Guns; 12-26-2009 at 02:12 PM.
    Roger
    NRA Endowment Member and CRPA
    Handgun Racks - http://www.ArmoryRacks.com

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    This is the Crown - FAG 39 of a Beretta Crown- RE serial 765xxx 1939 - XVII

    Attachment 263774
    Last edited by kanister; 12-26-2009 at 04:25 PM.

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    Yes, that is the marking, do you know the meaning? I have seen a couple of theories, but nothing conclusive.
    Last edited by Like_Old_Guns; 12-26-2009 at 03:34 PM.
    Roger
    NRA Endowment Member and CRPA
    Handgun Racks - http://www.ArmoryRacks.com

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franchi View Post
    . "FAG" on Carcanos is the abbreviation for Fabbrica d'Army Gardone and a date.. "
    The "FAG" has only been noted on Model 1934 (380) Beretta pistols with slide dates of 1939 and 1940, all are also "RE" marked.
    Which bring up another question, why would there be a FAG 39 date on a 1940 pistol? Could be they just kept using the FAG 39 stamp in 1940. But why was the Gardone Weapons Factory marking Beretta pistols in 1939 and 1940. I don't see any reason for Gardone to be rebuilding Berettas, unless they were helping them with production in 1939/40. There are a lot of other oddly marked Model 1934 pistols in 1939 and 1940 in the "FAG" pistol serial range, all the pistols in 1939/40 are not "FAG" marked.

    David Franchi
    Yes, FAG = Fabbrica d'armi Gardone: in 1939/40 helped to proofmark Beretta for the RE = Regio Esercito

  17. #17
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    Thanks, that makes sense. I have two Crown/RE Beretta 1934s with the Crown/FAG/39 on the right tang. One is a 1939 XVII slide and the other is a 1940 XVIII slide.
    Roger
    NRA Endowment Member and CRPA
    Handgun Racks - http://www.ArmoryRacks.com

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