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Thread: 22 or 25?

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    Default 22 or 25?

    I am looking at one of the Beretta pocket pistols for various reasons (price, size, reliability). Don't need it, just want it for those walks in the woods. My question is, what is going to be more reliable - 22 or 25. I had always heard that the 25 is more reliable because of the jacketed bullet, but there is another train of thought that the 22 is just as reliable and slightly more potent as long as ammo and gun are kept clean.

    Anyone have any first hand experience?

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    Default Good question!

    IS the .22 out of a tiny barrel more potent or isn't the slightly bigger size and centerfire cartridge of a hot, power-pointed, .25 better?!
    Alden
    Last edited by Alden; 06-20-2009 at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alden View Post
    IS the .22 out of a tiny barrel more potent or isn't the slightly bigger size and centerfire cartridge of a hot .25 better?!
    Alden
    Alden. You don't have a hot .25 unless you roll your own. The .22 is slightly smaller but has much better ballistics. Although I do like the .25 as a close quarter cartridge, I would prefer the .22.
    les45. You can get the .22lr in jacketed HP design also. Good for varmints but for bigger varmints you may want a fmj for deeper penetration.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

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    The Army Rat is right.

    The 25 ACP was designed to be a more reliable cartridge, and it is because it has a centerfire primer. In energy and velocity it is about the equal of a 22 short.

    The common 22 LR is substantially more powerful. If you are set on a 25 APC make sure the handgun has a 3 inch or longer barrel, this will increase velocity and penetration.

    Have heard many stories of ineffective 25 ACP usage, and deadly effective use of 22 LR.
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    .25 ACP has a reputaion for people shot with one dying a week later ("Shot on Saturday, die next friday") - and the ammo is relatively scarce and quite expensive. A 22 (even in one of the dinkier Berettas) is a better choice to carry on a walk in the woods. A bigger gun (say a Ruger Mark I, II, or II or Standard model or other quality 22 auto or a good 22 revolver) would be a better choice. JMO. Quality 22s aren't expensive unless you are going for top-of-the-line target guns and are quite reliable. Not to mention easier to shoot well....
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    For a walk in the woods. 22 Long Rifle.

    Both are better then a pointy stick.
    But the .22 is cheaper to buy ammo for. Therefore more practice. If you have the time.

    Practice is good.
    Hits count.

    Maybe a revolver in .22LR would be good as well.
    And you might save a buck or two vs the Beretta.

    But I have a friend who owns a Beretta in 22LR that I enjoyed shooting.
    And I would not worry if I had Aguila 60grain Sniper Subsonics in it. AKA SSS.
    For a walk in the woods.



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    “.25 ACP has a reputation for people shot with one dying a week later” [Clyde]

    Indeed. Also the 25 bullet penetrating the skin, skating around the head under the skin, and doing little damage…or bouncing off the skull…which might aggravate the attacker.

    Having a 275 lb bad guy armed with a knife (recently AWOL from the local palace of incarceration,) pop out of the bushes, would leave me (armed with a 22 or 25) less than reassured.

    Better a small 32 or 380.
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    I have a Beretta 21a "Bobcat" in .22lr that I bought as a pocket plinker to carry on hikes, or take camping. It is very picky about ammo and very fussy about being clean. Partly because it has no extractor whatsoever, and it relies solely on blowback for the extraction of the cartridge case.
    Last edited by Looter; 05-24-2010 at 02:11 PM.

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    Interesting stuff...
    By hot I, of course, mean comparatively. I dunno, like 94 ft-lb. Glaser Safety Slugs or must-be-rare Winchester USA 50 gr. FMJ's at 760 fps w/64 ft-lbs. vs. regular Winchester's 815 fps. Super-X 45 gr. Expanding Point at 66 ft-lbs. from a 2" barrel. .22LR 36 gr. Stinger travels over 900 fps. from the 2 1/2" barrel but won't expand and 36 gr. Viper flys at only 859 fps. Hmmm...

    For what its worth some folk I consider objective and bright that test and document such things wrote...

    "Many people have the mistaken belief that a 2 1/2-inch handgun chambered to fire the .22 Long Rifle cartridge is superior to a 2 1/2-inch handgun chambered to fire the .25 ACP cartridge. These tests show that when you fire .22 LR from a .25 ACP sized handgun, you should expect nothing better than .25 ACP-like performance. When fired from small handguns, .22 LR is virtually identical in performance to .25 ACP.
    We like to think of small automatics chambered in .22 LR, .25 ACP and .32 ACP as "shoot and scoot" guns. They're best used as a means to escape deadly danger. They're not gunfight guns.
    Finally, the Beretta M21A, chambered to fire .22 LR, is not a good choice as a personal defense handgun. The reason is because the Beretta does not have an extractor. When a cartridge misfires, the firing pin swages the rim of the cartridge to the breech, and the faulty cartridge must be either pried from the chamber with the blade of a knife or removed by inserting a cleaning rod down the bore. If you're considering the Beretta M21A pistol as a personal defense weapon, we feel you'd be better served by choosing one that's chambered to fire .25 ACP.
    If you're contemplating .22 LR as a personal defense cartridge, we advise you to consider a revolver instead of an automatic pistol. Rimfire ammunition has a higher incidence of misfire failures than centerfire ammunition. With a revolver, when a misfire is encountered, the problem is solved immediately by pressing the trigger again."

    Vigilence & Facts

    Alden

    PS: Guess I answered BOTH our questions. I have relied on the below, their largest, afield but they have smaller/different versions. All the revolvers are quality single-actions...
    Last edited by Alden; 06-20-2009 at 05:09 PM.

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    For a plinking gun afield, with the potential for self-defense if required, I've always favored a 22. Usually one of the Ruger autos I've owned, or one of the 22 revolvers. Sometimes a 32-20 revolver. It the equation is reversed, with defense the #1 priority and plinking secondary, then I carry a gun with serious potential (357 Magnum revolver, P-35 Browning woith high performance expanding bullets, 1911A1 in 45 ACP, that sort of thing).

    If for some reason a highly concealable piece is needed, the Remington 51 in 380 - with modern high performance ammo now that such is to be had.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Personally, I have always considered the .22 LR to be the last defense handgun round, and the .25 the second to the last.

    That said, I will ask one question, why choose a .25 or .22 when you can buy various pistols from Kel-tec, Ruger, North American Arms, and others in .32 ACP, .32 NAA, and .380 ACP which are very similar in size, and those cartridges are far superior.

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    I hate to say it but a stick or rock might serve you better.
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    Now, now.

    A friend, VP of a very exclusive high-tech security co., is carrying in big city where bullies are sure everyone is unarmed. Road rage incident. Mr. Road Rage gets out of car at light, runs up to VP's car, VP puts his palm up to window then points to .25 Beretta he had drawn and placed in middle of passenger seat. Mr. Road Rage runs back to car w/tail between his legs.

    What is the moral of the story Grasshopper?

    Alden
    Last edited by Alden; 06-20-2009 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alden View Post
    Now, now.

    A friend, VP of a very exclusive high-tech security co., is carrying in big city where bullies are sure everyone is unarmed. Road rage incident. Mr. Road Rage gets out of car at light, runs up to VP's car, VP puts his palm up to window then points to .25 Beretta he had drawn and placed in middle of passenger seat. Mr. Road Rage runs back to car w/tail between his legs.

    What is the moral of the story Grasshopper?

    Alden
    Moral of the story is to never draw or make any firearm visible to anything less than a life-threatening situation. Nothing was mentioned about Bully-Boy being armed with anything more potent than his fists, and apparently, a closed automobile window separated the two folks from direct confrontation.

    Especially in a gun-unfriendly 'large city', simply displaying deadly force in such an incident can be considered as brandishing, with unintended legal consequences to the foolish firearm owner.

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    I'd choose the .22 over the .25acp, but you should know that the Beretta is also available in .32acp (The Tomcat) and that caliber might be a better choice for defensive use.
    Regards, Alan K.
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    Hey Les45,
    I have owned a Bobcat in .22lr, a couple of Jetfires in .25, and a Minx in .22 short. I have only come across 1 Bobcat in .25, but passed because of the 250.00 price. I picked up the others for under 200.00, most for 150.00. This was before the current price spike. Every pistol has been very accurate and totally reliable. If you purchase these pistols used you'll probably find them in minty condition or pretty crusty. The crusty pistols being carried regularly and not maintained and the minty ones being put in a drawer and forgotten. If you were to test fire your pistol into say a telephone book at variuos ranges you'll get a pretty good idea of the various rounds penetrating power. In my experience the .22lr did best, followed by the .22short, and .25 respectively. The Minx was the most accurate, followed by the Bobcat and Jetfires. The difference in accuracy between these pistols was negligible. I was able the consistenly hit a spent shotgun shell at 50ft making the shell "dance". If forced to choose 1 model I'd go with either the .22lr or short based on the rounds performance and price of ammo. Good luck and enjoy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    “.25 ACP has a reputation for people shot with one dying a week later” [Clyde]

    Indeed. Also the 25 bullet penetrating the skin, skating around the head under the skin, and doing little damage…or bouncing off the skull…which might aggravate the attacker.

    Having a 275 lb bad guy armed with a knife (recently AWOL from the local palace of incarceration,) pop out of the bushes, would leave me (armed with a 22 or 25) less than reassured.

    Better a small 32 or 380.
    I don't know. The 25 is a meek and weak cartridge but at least the Raven I had at one time was very reliable and highly accurate at a range of 10 to 15 feet. If a big bad guy jumped out of the bushes at me and I could get to the 25 as quickly as I could the 357 I think I could still stop him with six hits to the face and neck. He might stumble into me and I think I would have time to call 911 before he may expire but I think it would stop him. But again. I would prefer the 22 and in a revolver. I do like the meek and weak 25 though for up close and personal. The weapon has virtually no recoil.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    I thought that I heard you laughing.
    I thought that I heard you sing.
    I think I thought I saw you cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    If I had to choose between .25 and .22 LR, the .22 wins out. You can make your assailant mad with a .25 and you can kill them with a .22, although it might be a few days before they bleed out. Get a Makarov and put a .32NAA barrel on it...
    Up close and personal? Get a North American Arms .22 LR or magnum mini revolver...
    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."
    Edmund Burke - 1770

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    My .22 rimfire magnum NAA mini revolver has a 1 5/8 in barrel. It is grossly inaccurate, only useful at ranges of 20 feet or less, and thus OK for self defence but useless for plinking or target shooting of any kind unless you are a masochist who enjoys being discouraged.

    The magnum, from the short barrel, still has more energy than a 22 LR from a more reasonable length barrel and is adequate for self defence but of course bigger is better. But if I use anything bigger as a carry gun it inevitable ends up staying home where it is useless. With the mini, I just fold it into its grip holster and drop it into my pocket where its no more trouble than a key chain.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    “When fired from small handguns, .22 LR is virtually identical in performance to .25 ACP.” [Alden]

    Manufacturers specs, common Remington green box Thunderbolt and Winchester white box

    22LR Energy 140 ft. lbs Velocity 1255 F.P.S. Remington Thunderbolt

    25ACP Energy 64 ft. lbs Velocity 760 F.P.S. Winchester FMJ

    Years ago I ran several tests shooting 22LR and 25 ACP into moist wood lumber. I found, to my surprise, that the 22LR consistently travelled deeper into the wood. Would like to know how the “virtually identical in performance” evaluation was reached. Always wanted to carry a .25 but if the lowly 22LR, the cartridge of my childhood, out performs it….why would I bother?

    "Mr. Road Rage gets out of car at light, runs up to VP's car, VP puts his palm up to window then points to .25 Beretta he had drawn and placed in middle of passenger seat. Mr. Road Rage runs back to car w/tail between his legs." [Alden]

    Unwise. Drawing and presenting a firearm is extremely serious business, the threat and/or use of deadly force is justifiable by the innocent victim of an attack, but only when that attack represents the threat of serious bodily harm or death. Mr. Road Rage could say Mr. VP initiated the dangerous confrontation, etc. etc.

    Lucky Mr. Road Rage did not dial 911, Mr. VP might well have been charged with Assault, Reckless Endangerment, etc. etc. If all a guy is doing is shouting at you, best to drive away, remove yourself from the situation.

    What if Mr. Road Rage (unarmed to boot) was terrified to the point of collapsing, then suffered a fatal heart attack while Mr. VP threatened him with the Beretta ?

    The license to carry does not condone reckless or cavalier behavior.

    "Better a small 32 or 380." [Sailor]

    “I don't know. The 25 is a meek and weak cartridge but at least the Raven I had at one time was very reliable and highly accurate at a range of 10 to 15 feet. “ [armyrat1970]

    I would like to carry a 25 but until someone can prove to me that there is a reasonable chance of stopping a deadly threat, I will not.

    Most professionals will tell you to carry the largest caliber handgun that you can control effectively. And most professionals consider that anything smaller than 9mm para or 38 special is inadequate.
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    “When fired from small handguns, .22 LR is virtually identical in performance to .25 ACP.” [Alden]

    Manufacturers specs, common Remington green box Thunderbolt and Winchester white box

    22LR Energy 140 ft. lbs Velocity 1255 F.P.S. Remington Thunderbolt

    25ACP Energy 64 ft. lbs Velocity 760 F.P.S. Winchester FMJ

    Years ago I ran several tests shooting 22LR and 25 ACP into moist wood lumber. I found, to my surprise, that the 22LR consistently travelled deeper into the wood. Would like to know how the “virtually identical in performance” evaluation was reached. Always wanted to carry a .25 but if the lowly 22LR, the cartridge of my childhood, out performs it….why would I bother?

    "Mr. Road Rage gets out of car at light, runs up to VP's car, VP puts his palm up to window then points to .25 Beretta he had drawn and placed in middle of passenger seat. Mr. Road Rage runs back to car w/tail between his legs." [Alden]

    Unwise. Drawing and presenting a firearm is extremely serious business, the threat and/or use of deadly force is justifiable by the innocent victim of an attack, but only when that attack represents the threat of serious bodily harm or death. Mr. Road Rage could say Mr. VP initiated the dangerous confrontation, etc. etc.

    Lucky Mr. Road Rage did not dial 911, Mr. VP might well have been charged with Assault, Reckless Endangerment, etc. etc. If all a guy is doing is shouting at you, best to drive away, remove yourself from the situation.

    What if Mr. Road Rage (unarmed to boot) was terrified to the point of collapsing, then suffered a fatal heart attack while Mr. VP threatened him with the Beretta ?

    The license to carry does not condone reckless or cavalier behavior.

    "Better a small 32 or 380." [Sailor]

    “I don't know. The 25 is a meek and weak cartridge but at least the Raven I had at one time was very reliable and highly accurate at a range of 10 to 15 feet. “ [armyrat1970]

    I would like to carry a 25 but until someone can prove to me that there is a reasonable chance of stopping a deadly threat, I will not.

    Most professionals will tell you to carry the largest caliber handgun that you can control effectively. And most professionals consider that anything smaller than 9mm para or 38 special is inadequate.
    When out and about I would not carry anything smaller than a 38, 357 or 45, last 2 preferably. Around the house a good 25 will work as a small, light dependable and accurate handgun.
    Since the original poster was asking about dependability in a gun and cartridge for a walk in the woods I would say a 357 revolver.
    Ahhhhh. So many calibers. So many different weapons. So little money
    Last edited by armyrat1970; 06-22-2009 at 03:17 AM.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    I thought that I heard you laughing.
    I thought that I heard you sing.
    I think I thought I saw you cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    A lady once looked at me while I was admiring a 25 cal Mauser M1910, 10 round capacity, a little popgun that will do a 2 inch group at 25 yds, and put'em all in the black at 50, maybe the best 25 cal ever. She smiled and then started laughing.

    Lady: “What are you planning to do with that? It wouldn’t stop a wild (rabid) dog, let alone a squirrel on crutches.”

    An 83 yr old at the range yesterday was shooting a 22 cal pistol, he was putting them in the black, but the gun was jamming.

    “Around the house a good 25 will work as a small, light dependable and accurate handgun.” [armyrat1970]

    You’re a better man than I.

    If someone breaks into the house (family retreats to the main bedroom, perp on the other side of the door with his knife, pistol, knapsack, and duct tape)…it wouldn’t be the 25 cal Mauser I would be defending with…more like the the 12-guage scattergun.

    “Ahhhhh. So many calibers. So many different weapons. So little money” [armyrat1970]

    Yah got that right. Trying to choose between a Springfield XDm and a Walther P99…and barely enough money for one….the pain…the humanity…the inequity…
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armyrat1970 View Post
    When out and about I would not carry anything smaller than a 38, 357 or 45, last 2 preferably. Around the house a good 25 will work as a small, light dependable and accurate handgun.
    When out and about I wont carry anything too big to dump in my pocket and not worry about it ripping the bottom out, or that needs a holster.

    Around the house my ony dilemma is whether to use one of the 45 ACPs, the 44 mag, the 38 Super, the AK, the shotgun, the Garand, one of the Mausers, one of the.....
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    i would take a .22 or .32 over a .25 for a defensive round. I'd like a .25 as a "buff" peice but thats it. Maybe like a Beretta that James Bond had. For my own preference i would probably not go below .38 or 9mm parabellum.

    For street muggings, I don't think anything beats a .38 in the pocket. "You want my wallet? Why yes, i have five dollars for each of you" and pull your .38 out of your front pocket ala Bernie Goetz. I think a medium frame 9mm, .40 or .45 is a good back up (yes back up) if you were in a restraunt and there was a take over robbery or a spree shooter. At that range a .38 will not shine but Glock 19/23/30, Browning Hi power, Sig p228/225, HK P7 and other similar sized pistols may shine.
    Last edited by Francis; 06-22-2009 at 09:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by armyrat1970 View Post
    Alden. You don't have a hot .25 unless you roll your own. The .22 is slightly smaller but has much better ballistics. Although I do like the .25 as a close quarter cartridge, I would prefer the .22.
    les45. You can get the .22lr in jacketed HP design also. Good for varmints but for bigger varmints you may want a fmj for deeper penetration.
    .22 stingers are great for this purpose. Never had a failure-to-fire with one. And they can be a nasty round to get hit with since they are doing over 1600fps from a 6" barrel and are a hollow point.

    I have had FTF with run of the mill .22 ammo. Hence basic practice ammo.
    Last edited by Squeaky Duck; 06-22-2009 at 09:42 PM.

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    I would go with .22 just because I can shoot 500 .22's for the cost of 50 .25's . Practice , practice , practice .

    Here's a link I found on .22LR from a short pistol barrel .
    http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm
    http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/tests.htm

    Here's a comparison done by North American Arms .
    http://www.naaminis.com/news20.pdf
    mitch

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    I have a Beretta 950 'Jetfire" in .25 acp... Just like the .22,, there is no extractor....

    However,,, when you hit the release lever,, the barrel flies up with enough force to clear the chamber and send the loaded round flying across the room if you're not holding it down....

    I have never had a problem with the Winchester rounds that have the little BB in the tip... However,,, I had a few light primer hits with some S&B ammo on the same outing... After cleaning the lint out of the firing pin,,, I was good to go...

    I got mine for a good deal... If I had a choice,, I'd probably go for the .22 so I can load up with the crimped shot rounds for walks in the woods...

    You can get into the .22 vs .25 vs the people that say nothing smaller than a .45ACP or a 500S&W will kill an attacker.... It's all what you get out of it... The German SS and Gestapo killed enough people with 9mm,, .380,, .32,, and .25 rounds (and those were FMJ rounds)....

    Apparently 9mm stopped killing peoople effectively after 1945..??

    The soviet PSM fires a round smaller than .22 cal and they never imported them because they're so "deadly"...

    Without being under the 'laws' of the Geneva/Hague conventions,,, we can load whatever crazy crap projectiles we want into our bores.....

    I'd rather hit an attacker with 6 .25 rounds than nothing at all....

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    No longer have that Raven but I wish I did. When at home my 1911A1 is setting on the shelf in my bookcase next to the front door. Late at night by my side when at the PC. Bedside table when asleep. Sometimes my Mossberg 500 Special Purpose standing in the corner also. That Raven would fit easy in the back pocket when going outside for a smoke or just walking around the house. Shot placement being the most important thing over caliber, you could place those .25's right where you wanted them because of the non recoil. Would prefer a small, light 38. Don't have that either.
    There have probably been more deer taken and more assassinations with a .22 than any other caliber though.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    I thought that I heard you laughing.
    I thought that I heard you sing.
    I think I thought I saw you cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

  29. #29
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    “Around the house my only dilemma is whether to use one of the 45 ACPs, the 44 mag, the 38 Super, the AK, the shotgun, the Garand, one of the Mausers…” [jjk308]

    Nowadays the AK would be the weapon of choice, with the shotgun as the most likely alternate.

    “…if you were in a restaurant and there was a take over robbery or a spree shooter…..Glock 19/23/30, Browning Hi power, Sig p228/225, HK P7 and other similar sized pistols may shine” [Francis]

    All good choices listed for a scenario that sadly does occur. Recently here in Michigan, during a bank heist, a citizen (CCW armed with a 9mm) made a citizen arrest of the bank robber. Gutsy.

    Guy Sajer, thanks for the links. Informative.

    “Apparently 9mm stopped killing people effectively after 1945..??” [Nervous Breakdown]

    Good point, CCW armed civilians do not shoot to kill, they shoot to stop the deadly threat, should the criminal unfortunately die as a result of their violent life threatening criminal action, society regrets their sad passing.

    After months of searching and checking out many handguns in 45 ACP and 9mm calibers, finally made the choice and just picked up a Walther P99 in 9mm.

    As soon as I put the P99 thru its paces at the range I will post my findings, probably in the CCW Discussion Forum, since it was purchased primarily for CCW use.
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    Sailor;
    You kinda dance to your own drummer...

    Comparing stats on a .22 literally from a long rifle is meaningless compared to a .25 auto from a 2.5" barreled pistol. I gave you some actual comparitive figures.

    Not sure where you live that brandishing a pistol is not a perfectly legitimate use of a firearm in self defense. Maybe you have read too many hard-guy internet posts or knuckle-draging gunzine articles, maybe seen too many Rambo movies, or don't understand the law and are an advocate of only drawing a gun to shoot. Knock yourself out you Gurkha you...

    As for a pistol, reliability is paramount and the .25 s/be more so in a self-loader. Finally, if anyone here actually carried for defense and size and comfort and concealability are paramount, some gun is better than none and hence the continued popularity of the .25. Someone suggested a Makarov? I defy you to find something heavier with less relative bang. Yes, I LOVE the 9x18 cartridge and "carry" one myself 'cause they were dirt cheap and good (which is why they have so many defenders) but small and light they ain't.

    Yes, for me, a stainless .22 Mag NAA Black Widow in the woods might be preferable. How 'bout just strong pepper-spray and we all call it a day?!

    Alden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alden View Post

    Not sure where you live that brandishing a pistol is not a perfectly legitimate use of a firearm in self defense. Maybe you have read too many hard-guy internet posts or knuckle-draging gunzine articles, maybe seen too many Rambo movies, or don't understand the law and are an advocate of only drawing a gun to shoot. Knock yourself out you Gurkha you...

    Alden
    A quick check of local laws and we can find out real quick if your VP friend committed a felony, misdemeanor or if he broke the law at all. What city and state did your friend brandish his weapon in?
    Last edited by unbekannt; 06-24-2009 at 01:26 AM.
    Fine Print:
    The preceeding opinion should be considered only as an opinion and not legal advice. In no event will the poster, Unbekannt, be held liable to any party for any damages arising in any way out of the availability, use, reliance on or inability to use poster's opinion or any information provided by or through the poster, or for any claim attributable to errors, omissions or other inaccuracies in, or destructive properties of any information provided by or through the poster.

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    I love post like this. It is a way to hear so many different varying opinions as to caliber and weapon of choice. They do at times get long and sometimes off course but a lot of good opinions come out. Always hope the original poster gets good info though. With all of the different opinions, I would hope they would.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    I thought that I heard you laughing.
    I thought that I heard you sing.
    I think I thought I saw you cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    I had no idea that my question would prompt so much reaction. Thanks to all who responded. The responses are so varied and firm in their convictions that I am now more undecided than ever. This now has me looking at a new comparison that I hadn't considered before - Kel-Tec p3at or Ruger LCP? They both appear to be small enough for what I want and similar in price, so the question now is reliability. Wanna start a new exchange on this one?

  34. #34
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    “Comparing stats on a .22 literally from a long rifle is meaningless compared to a .25 auto from a 2.5" barreled pistol. I gave you some actual comparitive figures.” [Alden]

    The tests were carried out with several different 2 and 3” 25s and a very old 22 LR handgun, a 1930s H&R revolver (6" barrel). I was surprised to find the 22 LR handgun outperformed the 25s. I would have used a longer barreled 25 but did not have one.

    “Not sure where you live that brandishing a pistol is not a perfectly legitimate use of a firearm in self defense. Maybe you have read too many hard-guy internet posts or knuckle-draging gunzine articles, maybe seen too many Rambo movies, or don't understand the law and are an advocate of only drawing a gun to shoot. Knock yourself out you Gurkha you...“ [Alden]

    Mentioned your incident to a lady with a decades worth experience in a law office and at least as much as an award winning reporter. Before I had even finished, she interjected:

    Lady: “I know how this ends, the guy goes back to his car, gets a gun and…”

    Sailor: “No he ran off, tail between his legs….come to think of it, he just might be driving around right now, armed and ready for his next Mr. VP encounter.”

    We live in Michigan. Shots have been fired right in front of this house, and the police have yellow taped off the front lawn and driveway. I would not draw or show a handgun unless I meant to use it to stop an imminent deadly threat. Michigan does have a brandishing law. A unarmed guy shouting at me outside my car window does not qualify as an imminent deadly threat.

    Had the UNARMED Mr. Road Rage dialed 9-1-1 and called for help, there is a good possibility that Mr. VP would have been handcuffed, taken downtown, and had to retain the services of a lawyer to get back to his impounded car. Also, had Mr. Road Rage had a firearm in his car the situation could have deteriorated very quickly.

    Mr. VP had options. He could have dialed 9-1-1, rolled the window down a crack and said “the police are coming,” or he could have driven to the nearest police station, police cruiser, sidewalk policeman, etc.

    If life has taught me anything, it is that you do not allow a misunderstanding to escalate into a fight, too many bad things can happen.

    My comments are not meant to demean Mr. VP, Mr. Road Rage, or you (Mr. Alden). I would like to a see all live long, happy, healthy, fruitful lives.

    I believe that using a firearm as a LAST resort helps get you there.
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    going up in size just a bit, the beretta 70S in 22lr is an excellent little gun, but a bit more expensive than a true pocket gun like the 951.

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    I have two Kel-tec PT3Ats. My wife carries one and I carry one. I shoot about 3 - 400 rounds through a firearm before I consider it broke in enough to carry, that is if it is reliable for those rounds. Mine was first, it was actually one of the first in my area as soon as they came out, and it had a few issues feeding hollowpoints, which some of the first ones did. I polished the feedramp and it feeds everything. My wifes came around a year or so later and like the later ones, it feeds everything, have never had an issue with it.

    One thing I also did was slightly pare down the magazine release with a small file, as one time I found the magazine had released in my pocket. Now I do not know if it was the release being high, or something I accidently did, It was one time out of a thousand. At the time I was not using a pocket holster, just sticking it in th epocket with the clip, since then have switched to a Desantis. But just to be safe I took a small amount off each just to be sure.

    I personally know perhaps 20 people who own the PT3AT. A couple of the first ones had a few feed issues, but were quickly taken care of just like mine. The ones since that first batch have worked superbly.
    Last edited by S.L.Dickinson; 06-24-2009 at 08:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    “Comparing stats on a .22 literally from a long rifle is meaningless compared to a .25 auto from a 2.5" barreled pistol. I gave you some actual comparitive figures.” [Alden]

    The tests were carried out with several different 2 and 3” 25s and a very old 22 LR handgun, a 1930s H&R revolver (6" barrel). I was surprised to find the 22 LR handgun outperformed the 25s. I would have used a longer barreled 25 but did not have one.

    “Not sure where you live that brandishing a pistol is not a perfectly legitimate use of a firearm in self defense. Maybe you have read too many hard-guy internet posts or knuckle-draging gunzine articles, maybe seen too many Rambo movies, or don't understand the law and are an advocate of only drawing a gun to shoot. Knock yourself out you Gurkha you...“ [Alden]

    Mentioned your incident to a lady with a decades worth experience in a law office and at least as much as an award winning reporter. Before I had even finished, she interjected:

    Lady: “I know how this ends, the guy goes back to his car, gets a gun and…”

    Sailor: “No he ran off, tail between his legs….come to think of it, he just might be driving around right now, armed and ready for his next Mr. VP encounter.”

    We live in Michigan. Shots have been fired right in front of this house, and the police have yellow taped off the front lawn and driveway. I would not draw or show a handgun unless I meant to use it to stop an imminent deadly threat. Michigan does have a brandishing law. A unarmed guy shouting at me outside my car window does not qualify as an imminent deadly threat.

    Had the UNARMED Mr. Road Rage dialed 9-1-1 and called for help, there is a good possibility that Mr. VP would have been handcuffed, taken downtown, and had to retain the services of a lawyer to get back to his impounded car. Also, had Mr. Road Rage had a firearm in his car the situation could have deteriorated very quickly.

    Mr. VP had options. He could have dialed 9-1-1, rolled the window down a crack and said “the police are coming,” or he could have driven to the nearest police station, police cruiser, sidewalk policeman, etc.

    If life has taught me anything, it is that you do not allow a misunderstanding to escalate into a fight, too many bad things can happen.

    My comments are not meant to demean Mr. VP, Mr. Road Rage, or you (Mr. Alden). I would like to a see all live long, happy, healthy, fruitful lives.

    I believe that using a firearm as a LAST resort helps get you there.
    sorry but Alden is right, even if you use a 3" .25 (wich are far and few in between) your still useing 3 to 3.5" moore bbl. with a 6 inch H&R, and a smaller,lighter bullit. what did you think would happen? i have ran this test myself and a .22 or .25 fired from the SAME lenght bbl. is allmost the same. with the .25 getting the eadge.

  38. #38
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    Yo test drive,

    The 25 ACP pistols were a M1910 Mauser (3 in ) an M7 Walther (3 in) an M1908 Steyr (2 in) and a Colt Junior (2.25 in). They were in excellent to mint condition. The 22 LR H&R is pretty beat up, measured the barrel, it is closer to 5.5 in.

    Next time will try to get a Walther in 22 LR.

    “what did you think would happen?” [test drive]

    At the time I thought that the 22 was a wimpy cartridge and that the 25 would WAY outperform the 22, like it would be three or four times more powerful, I mean it was like a modern centerfire cartridge.

    “i have ran this test myself and a .22 or .25 fired from the SAME lenght bbl. is allmost the same” [test drive]

    Thanks for the info, its always good to hear from a shooter who checks things out personally.
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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    It's been stated a number of times that the .22 Long Rifle is more powerful than the .25 ACP. I was a bit skeptical of this statement when both cartridges are fired out of the typical short barreled pocket automatics. A couple of years ago I finally got "a round tuit" and tested the two cartridges. This has been posted on a couple of other forums in the past.

    ____________

    The .25 ACP is one of our really old semi-auto pistol cartridges. It was introduced in 1905 or 1906, depending on the reference, in the FN Model 1906. Both pistol and cartridge were of Browning design. Once the semi-auto pistol became accepted and came in general use at the beginning of the 20th century, a number of designs in different sizes and chambered for a host of new cartridges were marketed to those who felt the need to possess a handgun for self-defense. The smallest practical sizes marketed were any of several models termed vest pocket pistols. Most of these were designed around the .25 ACP or 6.35 Browning as it is known in Europe. These diminutive pistols occupied about the same space as the smallest one or two shot derringers of the previous century but featured higher ammunition capacity contained in handy magazines that made recharging more convenient. Due to the relatively high velocity of the .25 ACP cartridge, handguns so chambered offered striking effectiveness equal or exceeding many of the low-powered rim fire, pin fire, or center fire pocket pistols marketed in the later decades of the 19th century. A light-weight-for-caliber .22, .25, .30, .32, .38, or at best .41 caliber bullet traveling at 400-500 fps is anemic in the extreme. Many thousands of small semi-auto pistols taking the .25 ACP were sold worldwide over the next 75 years or so. Among the well known brands were some really fine handguns made and sold in .25 ACP including Astra, Beretta, Browning, Colt, FN, Mauser, Ortgies, Sauer, and Walther. These are finely made and exhibit design and craftsmanship fully equal to larger handguns from those firms.

    GCA ’68 and a change in tastes caused the popularity of high quality arms chambered for the .25 ACP to wan by the 1970’s. The cartridge became the provenance of the inexpensive semi-auto pistol. It seems that such low quality pistols, with their uneven functional reliability, further tarnished the reputation of the .25 as a serious defensive cartridge. Design advancements in the 1980’s and 1990’s made more powerful cartridges available in pistols almost as small as many .25 pistols. These days there are not a lot of choices out there if one wants to purchase a new .25 pistol.

    So, What Can It Do?

    For starters the .25 fully possesses the capability to kill a person very dead. It has laid many low in it’s century plus usage. It must be remembered that the .25 pistol is not a toy and absolutely must be given the same respect that any firearm should be accorded.

    I’ve toted and used the .25 on occasion and have some notion of its capabilities. Upon considering the Kel Tec P3AT, it’s .380 ACP cartridge, and it’s overall size compared to my Colt Model 1908 I decided to retire the .25 as a deep concealment handgun and go with the P3AT and its more effective cartridge. Previously I’d slipped the little Colt in my hip pocket behind my wallet if I didn’t think I could contrive to hide anything larger.



    Years ago I saw my first example of .25 ACP effectiveness and it was sorry indeed. I’d left a hunting vest on a tank dam where I’d been dove hunting one afternoon. Before work the next morning I drove out past the edge of town to the pasture to retrieve the vest. I slipped my Beretta Model 1919 .25 ACP behind my wallet and began hiking up a fence row to the stock tank. About 300 yards up the path from the road I suddenly found myself face to face with a coyote which was sitting on it’s haunches in the broom weeds at the edge of the path I was traveling. Pleased to have an opportunity to rid the countryside of one of the varmints I whipped out the .25 pistol and fired full into the center of the coyote’s chest, seeing dust and fur fly where the bullet struck. The distance couldn’t have been more than 5 yards. The coyote whirled and ran off. I’m sure I could ascertain a baleful look in its eye as it turned to run, contemptuous of my ordnance.

    Someone once dumped an old washing machine in a gully on our gun club property. I took advantage of the opportunity to fire a few shots into its side with this .25 Beretta. The result was chipped paint and deep puckers. No bullet penetrated the side of the washer. A few more shots with a Smith & Wesson Model 17 .22 Long Rifle revolver penetrated the washer’s side. What was the deal with this? The .22 would pierce the sheet metal. I knew the Beretta was old, its bore ravaged by corrosive priming. The rifling was only a shadow in the pitted surfaces of the bore. I speculated that bore condition could be affecting my .25’s effectiveness.

    At the next Fort Worth gun show I swapped the Beretta and cash for a Colt Model 1908 .25 that had a sparkling clean bore Since the washer was still at the range I stopped by and fired some more .25 ammo at its side. The shots from the Colt completely penetrated the sheet metal. Moral to the story is: if ya’ pistole ain’t got much horsepower to begin with, be sure it’s in good condition ‘cause you’re gonna need all the help you can get.

    One evening my brother-in-law called me to talk handloading and guns. I was walking around in the house on the cell phone while visiting with him and happened to look out our front door. There on the porch sat a feral cat that I’d been gunning for. With no explanation other than “Hang on Bo” I held the phone against my chest with my left hand, fetched the .25, which happened to be nearby, eased the door open a crack, and popped the cat through both shoulders. The bullet exited and made a small, flaked mark in the concrete. The cat launched itself off the porch but immediately keeled over at the edge of the sidewalk in the grass. He’d traveled about 8 feet. He was about 10 feet from the muzzle of the Colt when I fired. Bo exclaimed, “What was that?” I replied that I’d just taken out a cat that was hanging around tormenting Wally, our kids’ new kitten.

    I used the Colt .25 to administer a finishing shot to a buck once. I’d hit a buck deer high in the spine on a broadside shot with a .30-30 as he trotted through the edge of some oak woods. He was down but not out so I placed the .25 down close to the back of his head and pressed the trigger. As the shot rang out the spent .25 FMJ bullet rolled out of his right nostril onto the leaves, completely undamaged except for the rifling marks. The .25 effectively administered the coup de grace but was completely spent in traversing the deer’s head.

    A few armadillos, ‘possums, and a ‘coon that was found beneath our camper on a deer lease have given their all to my .25 ACP and it proved to be effective on these varmints.

    A Stinker to Shoot

    I’ve owned an Astra Model 1916, a couple of Colt Model 1908 .25 pistols and a Browning Baby since I traded out of that old Beretta. I get a kick out of shooting the diminutive pistols but can’t say I’m good at it. The sights are rudimentary, the triggers are a chore, and there just isn’t much for me to hold onto. The Browning Baby was about as tedious as shooting a .44 Magnum with full power loads because of this. The Colt Model 1908 seems to offer a bit more to hold. All .25 ACP pistols are loud enough to ring one’s ears if hearing protection is not worn. Despite the small pistols’ general unsuitability for use I’ve been know to wile away part of an afternoon trying to shoot distant targets with them for fun. There’s a good-sized mesquite tree at the end of the road leading to our old lake cabin that is slightly smaller in diameter than a skinny man. The distance is around 100 yards from the cabin yard. It’s possible but not easy to chip and nick the bark on the tree with .25 bullets. The last time I played at this game I had my best results shooting prone.

    Oh the Raw Power

    The traditional factory ballistic figures quoted for the .25 ACP with it’s standard 51 grain full metal jacketed bullet is 760 fps with 64 ft./lbs. of energy. Most consider the .25 ACP to be inferior to the .22 Long Rifle for self defense. This isn't entirely true as may be seen. It’s one thing to fire a .22 Long Rifle from a handgun with a four inch to eight inch barrel yet quite another to fire it from a typical vest pocket pistol with it’s barrel length of perhaps two inches at most. Perspectives change when firing both cartridges from similar handguns. It is said that the .25 ACP feeds more reliably than the longer rimmed .22 Long Rifle. There may be some truth to that statement as my .25 ACP semi-auto pistols have fed and functioned with perfect reliability.

    Because some folks are gluttons for punishment, die sets for handloading the .25 are available. Picking out .25 ACP cases from the typical litter of .22 rim fire cases on the ground at the range is enough to make one cross-eyed. Once set up for handloading the tiny components aren’t quite as bad to handle as may be imagined. I handload for the .25 ACP as I must hold a low threshold of entertainment value. My RCBS Uniflow powder measure can just be adjusted to reliably throw the maximum listed charge of Unique. It won’t go any lower and is easier to set just a little over the maximum listed charge weight for Unique. I’ve only attempted to load Bullseye and Unique in the .25 ACP. I’d assumed that Bullseye would be the best choice but Unique gives higher velocities using maximum published loads. The .25 ACP would have to be the least expensive cartridge of all to handload if one troubled himself to cast bullets for it. I’m just not that dedicated.

    The Inevitable Tests

    My brother-in-law and I recently spent a pleasant afternoon testing the .25 ACP and the .22 Long Rifle in a pair of Berettas he has. These two pistols have barrels of the same length. Below find data from this afternoons tests along with some additional .25 ACP data including handloads.


    The two Beretta pistols used in testing.

    .25 ACP Factory loads

    Remington 51 grain FMJ, MV 789 fps, ME 71 ft./lbs.
    Winchester 50 grain FMJ, MV 852 fps, ME 82 ft./lbs.*
    Hornady XTP 35 grain hollowpoint MV 1004 fps, ME 78*

    .25 ACP Handloads

    Remington 51 grain bullet, 1.6 grains Unique, MV 853 fps, ME 82 ft./lbs.
    Remington 51 grain bullet, 1.2 grains Bullseye, 728 fps, ME 60 ft./lbs.
    Rem. 51 grain bullet, (can't tell-it's a secret) Unique, MV 933 fps, ME 99 ft./lbs.



    Selected .22 Long Rifle cartridges fired from a Beretta Model 21A

    Remington high-velocity copper plated 40 grain solid (Golden Bullet)*
    MV 842 fps, ME 63 ft./lbs.

    Remington high-velocity lead 36 grain hollow point*
    MV 865 fps, ME 60 ft./lbs.

    Winchester high-velocity lead 40 grain solid*
    MV 854 fps, ME 65 ft./lbs.

    Winchester high-velocity copper plated 36 grain hollow point*
    MV 894 fps, ME 64 ft./lbs

    A Colt Model 1908 and a Oehler Model 12 chronograph were used except (*) in which a Beretta Model 950 B .25 ACP and a Beretta Model 21A .22 Long Rifle were tested over a Chrony chronograph. Coincidentally, the Winchester factory 50 grain load checked out identically when fired from both the Colt and the Beretta and the Unique handload was only one foot per second faster.


    When considering the midget automatics I'd prefer the .25 ACP to the .22 Long Rife though the difference is so minuscule as to be pointless. The .25 ACP feeds more reliably, the heavier and slightly larger .25 bullet shows equivalent velocities, and the fully jacketed design should deform less and offer more penetration. In tests against the '92 Dodge pickup fender the .25 ACP was noticeably more reliable in penetrating it than was the .22 Long Rifle when fired from the short barreled pistols. Neither was 100% successful in penetrating the fender. Not sure just what this test on the fender proves.

    If one is required to utilize the .25 ACP for self-defense the original 51 grain loading looks like the best bet in my view. Lately the standard full metal jacketed bullet is listed as 50 grains. The cartridge will never have the reputation as a stopper. In order for it to do it’s best work it needs to penetrate to a vital organ. The lighter weight, expanding bullets offered by some ammunition manufacturers in an effort to provide “enhanced performance” appear to me to be more likely to fail to adequately penetrate. Some of these are: 40 grain Glazer Safety Slug, 45 grain Winchester Super-X Expanding Point, 35 grain Hornady XTP hollow point, and 35 grain Speer Gold Dot hollow point. The whiz-bang fancy .25 slug that opens up effectively won’t do much good if it opens up in the lining of a winter jacket or perhaps a rib bone or skull, leaving an assailant who is even more agitated. I’ve had no experience with any “high performance” .25 ACP ammunition so am not qualified to say what it would do. What’s more, I don’t intend to purchase a bunch of different brands order to find out what they could do. Penetration would be the first priority when selecting ammunition to carry in these pistols.

    If it's all one has in his possession, a .25 ACP pistol chould certainly be pressed into service for defense. It’d be better than nothing. A well-thrown punch generates more foot-pounds of energy but one must close with the adversary in order to land a blow. Since very small pistols are now available in more powerful cartridges there isn't really place for the .25 ACP in one’s self defense arsenal. It’s appeal in the 21st century lies in the collectors' fascination for the finely finished examples of the miniature handguns made in this chambering.

    Now if I could only find a nice example of one of those scarce Walther PP’s chambered for .25 ACP…

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    For fun we also tested the .22 ammunition in a Smith & Wesson Model 34 with 2-inch barrel and a Ruger Mark II with a 6-inch barrel.




    Even the 2-inch revolver produced a bit more velocity than did the tiny Beretta .22 pistol. The Ruger with a 6-inch barrel really enhanced the performance of the test .22 ammunition.

    Ruger Mark II
    Remington high-velocity copper plated 40 grain solid (Golden Bullet)
    MV 1097 fps, ME 107 ft./lbs.

    Remington high-velocity lead 36 grain hollow point
    MV 1137 fps, ME 103 ft./lbs.

    Winchester high velocity lead 40 grain solid
    MV 1109 fps, ME 109 ft.lbs.

    Winchester high-velocity copper plated 36 grain hollow point
    MV 1126, ME 101 ft./lbs.


    Smith & Wesson Model 34
    Remington high-velocity copper plated 40 grain solid (Golden Bullet)
    MV 913 fps, ME 74 ft./lbs.

    Remington high-velocity lead 36 grain hollow point
    MV 945 fps, ME 71 ft./lbs.

    Winchester high velocity lead 40 grain solid
    MV 918 fps, ME 75 ft.lbs.

    Winchester high-velocity copper plated 36 grain hollow point
    MV 974, ME 76 ft./lbs.

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    Caution: ballistic non-test ahead.

    I also fired all these handguns and loads into a 1992 Dodge pickup fender in order to observe penetration. I'm certain that this proves nothing except that these tiny pistols can damage the paint work on vehicles.

    First I fired several rounds of the three .25 ACP loads at the fender. Here's some instances where one of each of the three loads tested failed to penetrate the fender but the angle may have been too extreme.



    I tried again a few weeks later, taking care to hit the fender head on. This time I fired two each of each of the three loads I had on hand and they all penetrated the fender. None penetrated the inner fender but left slight puckers in it. The ugly hole was from a "miss" when I placed couple of rounds too close together. Perhaps a flinch?



    A hail of .22 bullet holes on the fender. The Ruger and the S&W Model 34 both penetrated the fender. The .22 failures to penetrate seen here all originated from the little Beretta pistol. I was surprised that the small increase in velocity observed in the Model 34 was sufficient to penetrate the fender.



    On another occasion I fired a single 158 grain +P equivalent .38 Special hand load, a cast bullet .380 hand load, and a Santa Barbara factory .380 load at the fender. The +P .38 Special load and the Santa Barbara .380 load easily pierced both the fender and the inner fender. The .380 lead hand load pierced the fender and puckered the inner fender.

    These kinds of tests are vital to illustrate the value of various cartridges when pressed into service to protect oneself against overly aggressive automotive sheet metal.

    Next week: Testing the .25 ACP against a Fender Stratocaster.
    Last edited by noelekal; 07-11-2009 at 07:33 PM.

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    Geez you got my head swimming with all of that data. I assume from what you are stating you would use a 25ACP for a defensive cartridge but it would not be you first choice? My feelings also.
    Barrel lengths makes a big difference. If I had to use my 9 shot, 6" H&R in 22LR I would go with HP's. For a short barreled 22 or 25 I would use FMJ.
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    I thought that I heard you laughing.
    I thought that I heard you sing.
    I think I thought I saw you cry.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

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    Mornin' armyrat1970;

    It would not be my first choice but I'd make my best effort with the weenie if it was all I had. My .25 guns are retired to the fun category. With some presence of mind a person could make a pretty enthusiastic defense with a .25. He'd likely have more assurance of a favorable outcome with something more powerful though.

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    Know of an incident some years ago in which a guy attempted a rape. He was actually aboiut to thrust into the gal when she finally managed to get her 25 (I think a Browning, not that it matters much) and start shooting. She shoved it more or less between their bellies and fired down, one round hitting the rapist in the penis and traveling through it lengthwise. He lost the erection and sort of flopped away, and she then emptied the gun (after clearing the failure to eject from the first one) into him, hitting him several times (three or four) in the torso.

    The guy lived and (it being Dallas where Henry Wade was DA at the time) such things being matters to discourage, got 40 years.

    One of the ER docs who treated him (the attempt was in a park a short distance from the hospital) said he was pretty sure anybody who'd been at the front entrance would have heard the scream... He also said that without a prosthesis (which the Texas prison system at that time wouldn't have provided) the rapist's f*cking days were done, unless he was somebody's bitch in the TDC's Eastham Unit....

    Annectdotal, no particular advertisement for the 25, but does suggest it ain't a good reliable killer. And that any gun is better than no gun...
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

  45. #45
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    Yo Noelekal,

    Did a similar test with an old dryer and found that the 25 ACP M1910 Mauser (3 in ) the M7 Walther (3 in) the M1908 Steyr (2 in) and the Colt Junior (2.25 in) and even the 1930-something H&R 22LR (5.5 in) revolver all punched thru the metal, but it was probably thinner than your old washing machine.

    And you are right about the long shot. The M1910 Mauser (3 inch barrel) will do a six inch group at 50 yards, have not tried anything further out.

    At the range today I was shooting a 9mm Walther P99 and managed a 1.7 inch group. Just as I was feeling pretty good about this, the guy beside me drops his targets by shooting the staples off the corners. He had several pistols with him and it didn’t matter what he shot, 45 ACP, 44 Mag, 9mm, everything went bullseye. Finally, he pulls out a little 22LR Beretta with a flip up barrel and shoots just as accurately with it. I rub my chin as he extols the powerful virtues of the tiny 22LR Beretta claiming excellent chances of stopping an attacker with it.

    Back home, do some research.

    In Ocala Florida, Martin Garrison was asleep when 5 people pulled up to his house and 2 armed suspects invaded the home while the accomplices waited in the car. When one of the home invaders pointed a weapon at him, Mr. Garrison pulled a .25 cal handgun from under the couch and shot the perp 3 times, killing him. Police were led to the accomplices when they answered a call on the cellphone which had been left behind. “Robberies are something you hear about, but you never want to go through one” Roger Garrison (brother)” Ocala Star Banner July 23, 2008.

    Thanks for the info, informative and entertaining.

    Oh…and the shooter with the tiny Beretta 22 cal….he did admit his regular carry is a full size gov’t 45 ACP …”…at 10 feet, the concussion knocks’em down."
    Was a soldier, very young, and they turned me into an old man. Sometimes in the early morning, before the sun is up, I think of fallen brothers, first with smiles...then with tears.

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