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Thread: Polish Vs. Romanian TTC

  1. #1
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    Default Polish Vs. Romanian TTC

    Century International Arms flyer shows both pistols. Differences?

    Romanian barrel 4.6" - Overall 7.71" - weight 1.9 lbs.

    Polish barrel 5.13" - Overall 7.63" - weight 1.85 lbs. Not quite the Dream Rod envisioned with a 7" barrel but maybe this one is growing.

    The Polish one is at least $40 higher. Why? What are the other differences?

    Which do you prefer and why?

    Does anyone have experience with bore condition of Century TTCs in Very Good or Excellent condition? Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Some say the Polish have a high QC. The main difference is the serations on the slide. The Polish have the older style wide Russian style groves while the Roms are fine cuts. They are being shipped in mixed lots so they should all have the same added safety.

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    I dont know about this last batch of Polish Tokarevs, but I bought one from SOG awhile back and it had the same type of safety as the romanians do and it even had romanian grips. I have a good feeling that these polish tokarevs are comming from romanian reserves.

  4. #4
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    The Polish example I have exhibits a far, far higher level of craftsmanship and QC compared to my Romanian, which has given me much trouble. Might wind up replacing the entire Romanian slide with a Chinese one or just using it for spare parts.

    Perhaps I just got lucky with the Polish and unlucky with the Romanian, but that 1949 Radom is beautiful. Mechanically smooth as silk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seano View Post
    Perhaps I just got lucky with the Polish and unlucky with the Romanian, but that 1949 Radom is beautiful. Mechanically smooth as silk.
    I wonder, or maybe your Romanian was reworked, poorly? Armorer rebuilds, like gubmnt mules, vary alot.

    Both my Polish and Romanian pistols exhibit identical QC based on looks and reliability. Or maybe I just got lucky.

    Slight caveat; I had to replace all the springs except for the trigger spring on my Pole.
    Formerly LeeSpeed; I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth...and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary...I believe in the Holy Spirit...the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

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    My Romy is smooth. The finish is a little faded, but functionally, it's a beauty.

  7. #7
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    Yeah, My Romanian seems to be pretty decent quality, and it shoots like a dream. (I got to handpick it from MGS though) Don't have the Polish, so I can't compare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seano View Post
    The Polish example I have exhibits a far, far higher level of craftsmanship and QC compared to my Romanian, which has given me much trouble. Might wind up replacing the entire Romanian slide with a Chinese one or just using it for spare parts.

    Perhaps I just got lucky with the Polish and unlucky with the Romanian, but that 1949 Radom is beautiful. Mechanically smooth as silk.
    I recently won a Romy TTC on Gunbroker, and have a line on a 1944 Russian slide. I was wondering if the slides will swap between the two? That, a set of repro CCCP grip panels, and removing/filling that safety would give me an inexpensive version of a Russian WWII clone to go with my Mosin PU sniper clone- IF it would work.

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    I think the worst tokarevs are the chinese. My polish is just slightly better in fit/finnish then my romanian, but not by much. Although the pole had no issues at all, while the romanian I had to tighten the slide stop retainer a bit. Otherwise, the rommy has been great.

    I think the chinese are the cheapest, lowest quality. The rest are just apples and oranges. The yugos are nice, when you can get a nice one. I am waiting on one from Family Firearms and Finnishes from Todd, and hoping for a good one as he hand picks them.

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    Seems the Polish is more desired due to better fit & finish, the Chin. commercial ones are usually the worst due to soft Metal, i have also one of those and the Manual says avg. life expectancy on gun is 2000. rounds!
    In other words a disposeable piece of Junk!

  11. #11
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    Default Polish tokarev

    Just bought a polish tokarev from century and it is a very nice looking pistol. century is not giving an extra mag. and pouch as advertised, it is only the pistol when you order. I was told they are out of mags. and pouches.
    Bob

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    That is sad! Polish Holsters are hard to find!

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    Quote Originally Posted by vz58kid View Post
    Seems the Polish is more desired due to better fit & finish, the Chin. commercial ones are usually the worst due to soft Metal, i have also one of those and the Manual says avg. life expectancy on gun is 2000. rounds!
    In other words a disposeable piece of Junk!
    Strange. I bought 2 of the Chinese 213's back in 1992. I had over 55,000 rounds through one of them before I gave it to my brother. He'd been bugging me for years to sell it to him. And my manuals said absolutely nothing about a 2,000 round service life. The pistol was dead on reliable, never a FTF or FTE. It always went boom when I pulled the trigger.
    I always thought that 2,000 round story was a myth. Can you scan a copy of that puppy? If it does exist, my thought is that it was either a misprint or a poor translation, as these pistols last much longer than that. They just sold the last of the warehoused Chinese 213's in Canada, in a fantastic deal. $99 each. I was reading where one guy put something like 3,000 rounds through one in a weekend. I don't recall he had any problems.

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    if I found one for 99, I'd take it. But I just feel like they are cheap, and not as well made. Prefer a pole, rommy, or yugo any day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruskiegunlover View Post
    if I found one for 99, I'd take it. But I just feel like they are cheap, and not as well made. Prefer a pole, rommy, or yugo any day.
    Fit and finish isn't up to my Romanian or Yugo, that is true. I don't own a Pole, so I can't comment on that. However, for accuracy and reliability? I never have had a better pistol. And I only paid $89 each. It was the best gun deal I've ever made.

    Here is a link to the entire Norc 213 for $99 180 page thread on the Canadiangunnutz page:
    http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum...d.php?t=298276
    Last edited by Mastiff; 08-18-2009 at 08:59 PM.

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    Sorry Mastiff, but i cant get to the Manual for my Chin. Tok. since i put both in the bottem of my Junk Pile in the Basement! And i dont feel like spending 1 hr getting to it! Also many of the Mak-90 AK rifles had the avg. life span of the rifle listed at 7.000 rounds in the Manuals for those!

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    Quote Originally Posted by vz58kid View Post
    Sorry Mastiff, but i cant get to the Manual for my Chin. Tok. since i put both in the bottem of my Junk Pile in the Basement! And i dont feel like spending 1 hr getting to it! Also many of the Mak-90 AK rifles had the avg. life span of the rifle listed at 7.000 rounds in the Manuals for those!
    Don't go to any trouble over it. I've been hearing this 2,000 round life thing for years, but nobody has ever been able to post a copy of it. As I said, my manual makes no such statement, and my experience is totally opposite. I've heard the same "soft metal" garbage about the Norinco !911 model, and that actually has harder metal than what Colt supplies.

    Here is a sticky from the M1911 Norinco Forum:

    There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

    "Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

    Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

    In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

    Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

    *Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

    Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

    I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

    Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

    So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

    5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

    All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

    I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

    http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15245

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pvt.Joker View Post
    I recently won a Romy TTC on Gunbroker, and have a line on a 1944 Russian slide. I was wondering if the slides will swap between the two? That, a set of repro CCCP grip panels, and removing/filling that safety would give me an inexpensive version of a Russian WWII clone to go with my Mosin PU sniper clone- IF it would work.
    Know where to get any more Russian slides ?

    Quote Originally Posted by vz58kid View Post
    That is sad! Polish Holsters are hard to find!
    Here they are...I posted this over a year ago, but the link still works:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=29645

    Mine is nice, and now I have a Polish Tok to go with it. Ten bucks, too.
    Last edited by Seano; 08-18-2009 at 09:40 PM.

  19. #19
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    Original ChiCom Tokarevs are excellant(MilSpec), but the made for export models are questionable in my humble opinion. Many are good though.

  20. #20
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    Exactly what i have always said and heard! Soft Metal which is also the case on mine!

  21. #21
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    Interesting on the metallurgy... I have had a gun smith refuse to drill my Norinco SKS receiver for a POSP side mount because the steel is too hard and they break tooling. I would guess that it may be 5100 steel too

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vz58kid View Post
    Exactly what i have always said and heard! Soft Metal which is also the case on mine!
    On a comparitive basis, I am curious to know how you know this? Are you saying the 213 frame and slide is "softer" than a Romy or Pole?

    I cannot verify the details of the long thread on Chinese steel, but the basics are correct. I make knives and do my own heat treating and the essentials of the fellows thread are pretty much spot-on. "Hard" or "Soft" are highly subjective terms and have very little meaning in the absence of either further, very specific descriptions or side-to-side comparisons.

    Having said all that, my Pole has a frame soft as butter {technical terms for the degree'd metallurgists out there :D} but for that I am glad. I needed to deepen the safety detent and was able to do that easily with a hand drill. Glad I didn't push too hard as I might have gone straight thru the bench to China... :eek:
    Last edited by 9.3x57; 08-19-2009 at 08:24 AM.
    Formerly LeeSpeed; I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth...and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary...I believe in the Holy Spirit...the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9.3x57 View Post
    On a comparitive basis, I am curious to know how you know this? Are you saying the 213 frame and slide is "softer" than a Romy or Pole?

    I cannot verify the details of the long thread on Chinese steel, but the basics are correct. I make knives and do my own heat treating and the essentials of the fellows thread are pretty much spot-on. "Hard" or "Soft" are highly subjective terms and have very little meaning in the absence of either further, very specific descriptions or side-to-side comparisons.

    Having said all that, my Pole has a frame soft as butter {technical terms for the degree'd metallurgists out there :D} but for that I am glad. I needed to deepen the safety detent and was able to do that easily with a hand drill. Glad I didn't push too hard as I might have gone straight thru the bench to China... :eek:
    Jeez, I'm rather fond of my Polish Tok. I was hoping it would last for the rest of my days, and I'm only 37...I run a lot of surplus through it, too, as 7.62x25 is so cheap. That is not good to hear...

  24. #24
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    I guess the next question is then, how hard does the frame NEED to be? Is it possible that, like early 1911's, only essential parts were heat treated? What about romanians?

  25. #25
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    I would also think that if they were that soft, we'd all be seeing signs of battering in the frames.....

  26. #26
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    On any cheap Chin. Tok T-54 i have ever seen the entire side of the slide is dented where the Imp. put his Stamp! And i have seen many where 1 side is so dented i was worried if the Damn thing would cycle!
    The Mil. ones are good, just the Comm. are Crap!

  27. #27
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    again, why I would not own or shoot a chinese......9.3X57, DOES THIS MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE TOKAREV? Does it bohter you, or is it just something of interest? Are you still using tokarevs for butcher stock?

  28. #28
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    Seano; That is not good to hear... Not necessarily.

    ruskiegunlover; how hard does the frame NEED to be?....... Exactly. The answer is it needs to be hard enough to meet safety and service requirements.

    9.3X57, DOES THIS MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE TOKAREV? No. I have alot of confidence in the pistols.

    Does it bohter you, or is it just something of interest? Something of interest. Are you still using tokarevs for butcher stock? Yes, and general shooting and field use.

    Fellows, my point is this: All pistols are engineered to produce certain performance goals. Specifications exist and "Infinity Shooting Life" is NEVER one of them. All guns have a service life. Just because the frame appears soft {what does "soft" mean?} doesn't mean the guns are no good. A Glock has a soft frame, too-it can be cut with an exacto knife!-but it is hard enough to support the parts. It does its job.

    Specific alloy used and heat treatment applied are selected to reach whatever requirement is demanded of the part. We might not know what those original specifications are. We also don't necessarily know if the actual individual guns meet spec or not. And just because the exporter/importer includes a piece of paper in the box stating the gun is expected to survive this or that # or rounds has nothing to do with the actual, original engineering requirement {IMO}.

    American milsurp shooters need to remember that many subject their pistols to far, far higher round counts than the guns were ever intended to be shot. That, in general, the Tokarev series pistols perform as well as they are reported to is high praise for the system. Remember, in military service, armorers are replacing parts all the time due to failure of this or that. We have to order such parts from Numrich, or make them, etc. It is a big deal to us, but not so surprising to those who service them. They have bins full of them and if the frame or slide goes, they scrap the thing and grab another from the bin. Such is life.

    But again, the Tok series pistols have, in my opinion, very impressive service lives for pistols in general, and especially for pistols of their era. They have some, IMO, fairly serious design flaws that can result in performance problems {most pistols do}, but if those are taken care of, they seem to be one of the very best milsurp pistols ever offered to the shooting public.
    Formerly LeeSpeed; I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth...and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary...I believe in the Holy Spirit...the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

  29. #29
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    Default Thanks

    forum friends for all the good insight. Looks like Tok is a winner.
    Larry

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