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Thread: Mauser Banner-Bolt Questions

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    Default Mauser Banner-Bolt Questions

    I have a Mauser Banner - a Standard Modell Model 1933 Short Rifle - A Mauser banner and "1933" stamped into receiver ring. I am questioning the originality of the bolt in this rifle. Were there any proof marks applied to the bolts of these rifles when manufactured? The bolt in my rifle has only the last three digits of the serial number applied to the top-side of the bolt root - no other markings on bolt body. Is this correct?

    BUGN proofs applied to the receiver ring only - not to barrel.

    I have tried twice to send pics with the thread but I can't get them to go through. I will keep trying to send them. Maybe someone can help with this.
    Bob

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    I don't have a "Standard Modell 1924" Banner, but at least one that I have seen had it's original straight bolt with the Crown "B" "U" proofs.

    Sadly, my DRP 1933 Banner is a bolt mismatch, but at least now has a correct Banner Crown "B" "U" bent bolt in it. Serial is not close to the rifle, but it is what it is...

    Every Banner bolt I have seen so far has only the last 2-digits of the sn# on the matching bolt parts. No proofs at all on the small parts, except for one odd, matching commercial sporter bolt from that era I've seen that had a Crown-proofed and sn# matching safety.

    Pics of yours would help greatly with further questions...

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    Default Standard Modell

    Regardless if its a Banner or Standard Modell the bolts will be numbered the same - at least in format.

    Some Banners and all B series Standard Modells will be Crown/B + Crown/U stamped on the bolt top with the last 4 digits stamped.

    Again, other Banners will have the 2 commercial proofs stamped on the bolt top but have (up to) 4 digits stamped on the handle or stem.

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    Here are some banner bolts.
    they are all from 1934 rifles.

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    Okay folks, here are some pics of my Mauser Banner for you to look at. Couldn't make this work last night - so here goes:
    The rifle has a straight bolt with no relief cut in the stock for a bent bolt handle.
    Please tell me if you think this bolt is original to the rifle.
    By the way - what does the stamping on the barrel collar mean?
    Thanks, Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-06-2009 at 12:47 PM.

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    Your Banner should have a turned down bolt based on the SN.
    This is not a Standard Model but likely a DRP marked variant.
    The Ch.40 is the barrel code. IMO the bolt is recent re-number and not
    wartime reworked.

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    Regrettably, I agree, particularly the renumbered bolt. Sorry WH.

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    I agree as well, the grind marks look heavy on all the bolt serial surfaces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce98k View Post
    Your Banner should have a turned down bolt based on the SN.
    This is not a Standard Model but likely a DRP marked variant.
    The Ch.40 is the barrel code. IMO the bolt is recent re-number and not
    wartime reworked.
    Bruce - and others:
    Where can one find a reference that correlates serial numbers with bolt handle configurations and other features of Mausers with Banner-marked receivers?

    What is a DRP marked variant? DRP=what?

    No argument on the "recent re-number" opinion. That's what I am interested in knowing.

    As info - the stock is numbered to the action - stamped in the barrel channel and in the handguard (is this correct?). It has no bolt-knob relief cut in the lower right side. I suppose the stock could be a replacement and renumbered also.

    In Ball's book "Mauser Military Rifles of the World", Fourth Ed. Pgs. 191 & 192, there is a description and photo of the rifle I have. It is identified as a "German Standard Modell Model 1933 Short Rifle". My rifle is identical to this one (inasmuch as one can see in the photo) except the rifle in the photo has a bright bolt where mine is blued. The blued finish on my bolt is not as bright as the finish on the receiver.

    Many thanks for your comments. I'd like to hear more if you have any. I don't like to hear that I made a mistake. It means that I have to go to the seller and raise hell to try to get my money back. Also make me feel like a dumbass for making the mistake. But, before I do that I want to be certain beyond reasonable doubt that I am on firm ground.

    One bright note. I took this rifle to the range last weekend. With starting-level handloads and 175 gr. bullets, it will shoot 1 MOA.

    If the seller will not take it back, and I have to keep it, what would be your recommended course of action? Options are (1) to work on restoring it to proper configuration - probably still mismatched but correct type (2) sell it for what it is and carry on (3) other options???????

    Many thanks,
    Bob
    ps: You guys are tops in the help and analysis departments. I'm a rookie and am in awe of some of you. My knowledge of these rifles is moderate, but not good enough to keep me out of trouble all the time. Need more books.
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-06-2009 at 06:01 PM.

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    I believe DRP means it is from the German Postal Service. Mauser banner/stand model rifles sometimes have stamps relating to the branch they had service in.
    Having the serial number stamped into the barrel channel and the handguard is correct. All Mauser k98s except some late ware rifles should have the serial number stamped in those locations.

    Even though the bolt is renumbered, I might keep it. Depends on how much you paid for it. Banner/standard models arent extremely common, and I think they are awesome rifles. The finishes on them are usually way nicer than war model K98s. Plus they all have walnut stocks.....which I think are beautiful.
    Last edited by Beswick; 07-06-2009 at 06:25 PM.

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    [QUOTE=Beswick;930175]I believe DRP means it is from the German Postal Service. Mauser banner/stand model rifles sometimes have stamps relating to the branch they had service in.
    Having the serial number stamped into the barrel channel and the handguard is correct. All Mauser k98s except some late ware rifles should have the serial number stamped in those locations.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This rifle has all the exact characteristics of a K98k except for the straight bolt handle without knob relief in the stock and the sling swivels mounted on the underside of the stock.
    The stock does not have any stampings on the outside - anywhere. Grain is beautiful but has moderate handling dings.
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-06-2009 at 07:20 PM.

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    The bolt definitely looks wrong and has been played with. With the Mauser/Oberndorf "billboard" on the L/H side this {should} be a bent-bolt model, and not a "Standard Modell 1924". My DRP is only about a thousand off from this rifle. As soon as I get off these twelve-hour shifts and get some time I'll have to try to work up some comparison pics.

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    Here are some pics of a DRP to compare to yours. Serial #63064 so pretty close to yours.

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    Not to be contrary, but y'all keep referring to this as a Standard Model rifle - and it may be. It's just that it's not marked that way. It does not have "Standard Modell" stamped on the left receiver rail. It is stamped "Mauser-Werke A-.G Oberndorf A/N". I'm not enough of an expert to know if this makes any difference - just wanted to point that out.

    If somebody boinked the bolt (I think they did too), I suppose they could have replaced the stock also and numbered it in the barrel channel. If that was done, shouldn't there be some evidence of an old number from the previous rifle in the barrel channel - or some evidence that an old number was removed? Any way to tell for sure if this has been done - what to look for? If the stock is original, there is no way it came with a turned-down bolt handle as the stock is not relief-cut for the bolt knob clearance.

    Are there any references out there that go into Banner models in any depth?

    Please understand - I am not arguing or contesting any of your points. I just want to fully understand what went on with this piece and how to read the evidence. I dont' want to piss anybody off, but I do want to learn as much as I can. I hope I can get fully educated on this piece before you guys think we've beat this dead horse enough and quit talking to me.
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-07-2009 at 04:17 PM.

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    FWIW, the "Standard Modell" is the short rifle, straight bolt, product sold to compete with the Vz.24 and FN.24/30 in the 1920s and 30s. The "DRP" is the immediate pre-K98k sold to the German gubment, i.e. the DRP (postal service) and DR (railroad), with a bent bolt. What's being said here is your rifle is a DRP/DR rifle with an incorrect and renumbered straight bolt in it when it should have a bent bolt. So, the person that humped the bolt did a poor job of renumbering and used the wrong bolt.

    These are very well made and if it shoots that good for you, then that's a positive.

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    The way I see it, is the stock fits the straight bolt; look at is pictures, you won't see the "bent bolt groove" in the stock. I think that's what he is trying to sort out.
    Last edited by Baribal; 07-07-2009 at 04:40 PM.
    Coagula / Solve

    Baribal; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baribal

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    Default Banner thread

    If you reference the sticky on Banners this will answer some basic questions.
    First the Standard Modell was Mausers answer to the VZ24 and FN model 1924. Straight bolt handle with 2 variations of band configs. I will be brief here. The Standard Modell runs (at least as far as my SN studies show) were
    A and B prefix. The A prefix and early B prefix were mainly export contracts with the later B prefix guns being assembled from 1936-1937 and mainly used in country (Germany). The Banners are different having a turned down bolt, dish in stock for bolt grip and side sling configuration as opposed to the Gew98 sling config on the SM. Banners can be found in 5 variations - DR, DRP,ChdA, GrBB and un-cartouched. Some were exported to China and Ethopia as were many SMs to China. Small export contracts exist for other countries. I have tried to track the SN position on the bolt in the sticky and where applicable, it is noted. Check the sticky and if any more questions, shoot.

    The post by BSD and others have shown the differing locations for the bolt SN.
    Last edited by Bruce98k; 07-07-2009 at 06:43 PM.

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    Baribal:
    Exactly - thanks.
    I have no argument that the bolt is boinked.
    What I am trying to tell you is I see clues that the stock is original and made for a straight-handled bolt.
    Pics are in the next post - didn't go through with this one.
    Question is - Am I wrong? Could the stock be boinked also?
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-07-2009 at 07:18 PM.

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    Pics didn't come through with previous post - here goes again - the stock bolt handle area and also the inside of the barrel channels of the stock and handguard.
    Let me know what you think about this stock's originality. I can tell you that I do not think that there were any previous numbers in the barrel channel that were removed because if you place an .018" thicknesses of paper in the number area, the action will not seat. With the action seated in the stock, you can pass a piece of .004" paper under the barrel at the number location, but not two pieces (.008").
    Whaddayathink?
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-07-2009 at 07:15 PM.

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    Default Side by side

    A comparison set of photos. I do not know why your stock, if original, would not have been cut for the bent bolt, is it cut for the sling? JH
    Last edited by haak48; 07-07-2009 at 07:29 PM.

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    haak48:
    My stock is not cut for the bent bolt - nor is it cut for a sling. It is exactly like the lower rifle in your photos - under-mounted sling and long band spring.
    Bob

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    Default Stock

    Whc, it could just be my eyes, but the channels appear to have been filled with something, resanded & restamped. A guess as to the questions as to this guns "problems" might be; mixed main components ( stock ,bolt, receiver & BBl) renumbered by someone, somehow, to match the barreled reciever. It appears they did not know alot about these guns. Only a guess however, I mean no offence. I will defer to the real experts here as we are lucky to have several on this board. Thanks, JH

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    Unfortunately, it looks renumbered.

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    Don't think it is renumbered. Too much wood left in the barrel channel for an old number to have been removed. If the old number had been removed, there would be considerable space between the barrel and the wood in the barrel channel (enough to have removed the old number and any telltale crushing/bruising of the wood fibers below the old stamping to remove "ghosts" - at least .030"-.050, even as much as .075"). As I said, you can get only one thickness of paper in there about .004", but not two - .008". If I lay two thicknesses of paper (.008") in the barrel channel, I cannot seat the action and put the rings on the stock without bending the stock foreend to get the rings on.
    Dark coloring in barrel channel is not filler - some sort of stain or smoke such as a stocker would use to inlet the barrel channel to the barrel (stocker would apply smoke or transfer dye to stock, which would rub off on action parts, to find out where wood needed to be removed for a good action fit). It comes off readily with some solvent on a rag. No ghost numbers anywhere. Barrel channel is undistorted wood to the surface. The marks are from a scraping tool used to inlet the barrel. Not all these stocks came off the profiling machines perfectly inlet for a complete action. Some required a little hand work to fit up the action properly.
    I don't think there has been any hanky-panky going on inside the stock.
    Many thanks,
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-07-2009 at 11:24 PM.

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    haak48:
    What is the lower rifle in your two pictures?
    Bob

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    Default Bad numbering

    Sorry to say your stock has been re-numbered. Also, the type of stock you
    have is not the correct type of stock for that action - which should have the
    dish cutout in the stock. Just an incorrect rig there.

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    Bruce:
    Kindly, what did you see in the pics of my stock that makes you certain it is renumbered?
    Not arguing, but if you are convinced it's renumbered, considering the information I offered above, you surely must have seen something that causes you doubt. I would be grateful to hear your reasoning.

    Is there any reference material that describes what type action or other characteristics (turned down bolt, stock cut out for bolt handle, stampings in left recevier rail, sling cuts, etc.) is appropriate for which block of serial numbers. If not, how does one acquire this knowledge?
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-07-2009 at 11:05 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default correct rig

    Here is a short sample of serials for your 1933 action:

    51000 DRP Rec Side Mark "Standard Modell 1924", sling well city code is Kosl (Koslin)
    52537 DRP
    52643 DRP Eft. (Erfurt)
    54675 DRP Brsl. (Breslau)
    55760 DRP

    Your 53801 fits right in the middle of this sample. Each is a Banner marked to
    the Postal Police force with accompanying stock cartouche. Also many of these will have the city code stamped in the side sling well.

    Again, these 1933 DRP Banners are well documented and held in many collections. The correct stock for your gun will have a side sling config, cutout for the bolt handle, pin and spring arrangement for band retention.


    To answer your question on re-numbering, I have a dozen or so Standard Modells and Banners and none have the characteristics or font arrangement that your stock shows. If this was a wartime re-work, the SN in the channel would have been lined or x'd out and a new number struck downstream. There should be no black goop in the channel - it should be open grained either dry or dried grease residue (not black).
    It is also the wrong stock for this action.

    Perhaps one of the guys can shoot some pics of a set of good factory numbers - if not I can pull one of mine out and get some shots.

    Thats it. Its not easy to be the bearer of bad news but as Ham as stated on numerous occasions, you get the straight poop here - no BS. I am just calling it like I see it - no gloss, no wrapping.
    Last edited by Bruce98k; 07-07-2009 at 11:14 PM.

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    Bruce:
    No problems. I just like to know the reasoning behind opinions. It's hard to accept a flat statement without evidence.

    This stock has definitely not been renumbered. I'd bet the rifle on that. If it's not the correct stock, then someone, some time ago took an unnumbered stock for a straight-handle bolt and numbered it to this action and applied it. Then they put a straight-handled bolt in it. No surprise - if the bolt is bogus, why not the stock also?

    Many thanks for sticking with me on this. I am persistent - but one must be that way sometimes to learn. I know you guys know what you are talking about but it's nice to know the facts behind your statements.

    Now - the straight-handled bolt rifle in Ball's book "Mauser Military Rifles of the World", Fourth Ed. Pgs. 191 & 192, which looks identical to mine - what number block would that be in. It's called a "Standard Modell Model 1933 Short Rifle". Why is my rifle not one of that group?

    Finally, from the pics you can see, can you venture an approximate value for this rifle?

    Very best regards,
    Bob
    Last edited by whcoyote; 07-07-2009 at 11:50 PM.

  30. #30
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    Default Mauser Banner

    Bob, the lower rifle of the two I posted is a Standard Modell. Thanks, JH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce98k View Post
    There should be no black goop in the channel - it should be open grained either dry or dried grease residue (not black).
    To illustrate the above:

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    Milsurp:
    Thanks for going to the trouble for the pics. Quite a difference from mine.
    Education is not free.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by whcoyote View Post
    Milsurp:
    Thanks for going to the trouble for the pics. Quite a difference from mine.
    Education is not free.
    Bob
    No trouble at all. I already had that image from my byf 43 uploaded.

    Another interesting thing to look at is the flat-topped style of the "3" used by Mauser Oberndorf on your metal:





    And here again is the barrel channel from my byf 43, made at the same factory 10 years later but they are still using a flat-topped "3":



    Now look at the "3"s inside your wood:




    Last edited by milsurp_collector; 07-08-2009 at 06:26 PM.

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    Milsurp:
    I see your point.
    I don't know about the third Reich era, but in Imperial Germany, the shape of the "3" depended on who made the arm. As example, DWM' 3s all had round tops while Erfurt's 3s all had flat tops. I suspect that this carried over into the 3rdR era also but have no proof. Anyway, your point is noted and well taken.
    Thanks,
    Bob

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    Please also notice how your Banner's stock channel sn# "searches" vertically, compared to "Milsurp Collectors's" example. His original is very flat/even and consistant with other "known" examples....

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    Milsurp:
    Have you noticed that the numbers in your stock and the numbers in your handguard were struck with two different sets of dies? Look at the "7"s - one has serifs and one doesn't. Also the "3"s - one has a slightly longer "neck" and smaller bottom than the other. Must have been fitted by two different stockers - or accepted by two different inspectors.
    Bob

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