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  1. #1
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    Default Bulgarian 7.62 x 25.....

    Might be taking a trip this friday to the familys land to do some shooting.....Need to try out my romanian tokarev after I had to modify the slide stop lever by fliling a bit of the tab off of it. Have a box of bulgarian 53 dated on 8 rd stripper clips. Ammo looks great, has no splits or other issues. Just curious. I will also shoot a bit of rommy out of it, 1 box. Hoping to have fixed it. The tab of the slide stop, the piece that engages the mag follower was too long, and rounds were hitting it as they pushed up in the mag, causing the slide to lock back while firing. I took a bit off the tab, think I've fixed it.

    But think I'll be safe with this ammo?

  2. #2
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    8 Round stripper clips sounds czech... what's the headstamp?

    Czech surplus gave me lots of misfires and it was a waste of time. My tokarev has digested dozens of unspeakably bad condition bulgarian rounds with no problem, one with small cracks by the hundreds. I'd had one round that was split halfway down the case that jammed when it cycled into the pistol: I pulled it out and it was curved like a banana. I pulled the bullet out with a pair of leatherman pliers with very light pressure. Only one i didn't shoot, i'll probably dump the powder in the garden, shoot off the primer, and keep the almost unblemished bullet as a momento.
    RIP BBQ Sam

  3. #3
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    Default tok

    There is some 7.62x25 ammunition for the sub-machine guns that is said to be unsafe for the tokerevs. FIVESHOT


    _________________________________________
    The LORD is not punishing us , HE is preparing us.

  4. #4
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    "7.62x25 ammunition for the sub-machine guns that is said to be unsafe for the tokerevs"

    Sorry, that is an internet myth, Tokarev ammo made for SMGs and not for pistols does not exist.
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
    Member: International Ammunition Assoc. (IAA), European Cartridge Research Assoc. (ECRA). Ask me about membership!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny c. View Post
    "7.62x25 ammunition for the sub-machine guns that is said to be unsafe for the tokerevs"

    Sorry, that is an internet myth, Tokarev ammo made for SMGs and not for pistols does not exist.

    Internet AND Gun writer myth.... SMGs shoot PISTOL ammo! That is the part of the whole idea (you have ammo in the supply chain already). If you wanted a "hotter round" for an SMG...Why not make a cartridge that is going to give you a significant boost in performance

    Well then, you could always develop the ASSAULT RIFLE! Oh yeah, that was done already.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    Internet AND Gun writer myth.... SMGs shoot PISTOL ammo! That is the part of the whole idea (you have ammo in the supply chain already). If you wanted a "hotter round" for an SMG...Why not make a cartridge that is going to give you a significant boost in performance

    Well then, you could always develop the ASSAULT RIFLE! Oh yeah, that was done already.
    Well then you're going to have to explain the Hirtenberger 9mm +P+ (L7A1) loading...


    Washington--The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has been advised by Hirtenberger AG, Hirtenberg, Austria, that certain 9Xl9 mm
    caliber ammunition produced by Hirtenberger is unsafe for use in any handgun.

    The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for use in submachineguns under adverse conditions. The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns.

    The manufacturer advises that up to 12 million rounds of this ammunition has recently been sold on the world surplus market. The ammunition can be identified by the following head stamp located on the bottom of the cartridge case

    12 O'clock position: HP
    3 O'clock position: 90, 91, or 92
    6 O'clock position: L7Al
    9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle

  7. #7
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    I was speaking specifically about Tokarev ammo, but the fact is usually true for all pistol/SMG rounds. You have in-fact bought up one of the few exceptions to the general rule.
    Always looking for interesting 7.62x25 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser cartridges!!!
    Member: International Ammunition Assoc. (IAA), European Cartridge Research Assoc. (ECRA). Ask me about membership!

  8. #8
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    Default

    [QUOTE=FIVESHOT;932516]There is some 7.62x25 ammunition for the sub-machine guns that is said to be unsafe for the tokerevs. FIVESHOT


    As a matter of "first hand" fact, some 1953 dated Bulgarian 7.62 x 25 ammo split the barrel and nearly blew the slide completely off a CZ52 pistol. Never heard about Tok blowups just jams and FTFs. IMHO Toks are much stronger than CZ52s, but the Bulgarian stuff still makes me nervous.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post
    Well then you're going to have to explain the Hirtenberger 9mm +P+ (L7A1) loading...
    The ammunition, designated L7A1 and produced ln the years 1990 through 1992, was produced for the British Ministry of Defense specifically for use in submachineguns under adverse conditions.

    [/i]

    You explained it yourself...."use in submachineguns under adverse conditions." This was not general issue ammo....and 99.9% of the time British SMGs used Pistol ammuniton.

    There is always an exception....and yes, I should have explained that in my post.

  10. #10
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai View Post

    9 O'clock position: the marking of a cross within a circle
    Always thought this mark meant that the ammo was loaded to NATO specs.
    This post contains the Amish virus. Since the Amish have no electricity or computers, you are on the honor system. Please delete all your files. Thank you

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombat12 View Post
    Always thought this mark meant that the ammo was loaded to NATO specs.
    Nato spec for 9mm is overpressure(+P), isn't it?
    RIP BBQ Sam

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Antibiotika View Post
    Nato spec for 9mm is overpressure(+P), isn't it?
    If you are based in the USA mindset (SAAMI), yes.... but the rest of the World has always had about the NATO level of pressure/velocity for 9x19mm loads. The standard USA commercial loading has been -P (minus P) since the early 1900s. My opinion anyway!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    If you are based in the USA mindset (SAAMI), yes.... but the rest of the World has always had about the NATO level of pressure/velocity for 9x19mm loads. The standard USA commercial loading has been -P (minus P) since the early 1900s. My opinion anyway!
    I suppose i should ask more precisely: What is NATO pressure for 9x19? SAAMI is 35,000 for normal PSI and 38500 PSI for +P. Both normal gauges, not copper crush.
    RIP BBQ Sam

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Antibiotika View Post
    I suppose i should ask more precisely: What is NATO pressure for 9x19? SAAMI is 35,000 for normal PSI and 38500 PSI for +P. Both normal gauges, not copper crush.
    9mm NATO mean pressure at 21 degrees Centigrade is 36,550PSI tested by CIP equipment. (British source)

    USA source for M882 9x19mm USGI Ball lists average chamber pressure @ 38,500psi when measured at the mid case point like the CIP procedure above.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    9mm NATO mean pressure at 21 degrees Centigrade is 36,550PSI tested by CIP equipment. (British source)

    USA source for M882 9x19mm USGI Ball lists average chamber pressure @ 38,500psi when measured at the mid case point like the CIP procedure above.
    So US stuff is +P equivalent, saami standard is according to wikipedia 35,000 and +P 38,500. Not to say that the commercial standard 1100 fps 115 grain bullet is probably anywhere near 35000 psi.
    RIP BBQ Sam

  16. #16
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    http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=us

    If link won't come up try "cached" lnik on bad bulgarian Think somebody is trying to bury this info. Should Add that personally inspected 2 other CZ52s damaged betond repair with this ammo.
    Last edited by vintovka; 07-13-2009 at 05:35 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Antibiotika View Post
    So US stuff is +P equivalent, saami standard is according to wikipedia 35,000 and +P 38,500. Not to say that the commercial standard 1100 fps 115 grain bullet is probably anywhere near 35000 psi.
    True "NATO Spec" USGI is +P yes or bit beyond.....BUT the Winchester stuff you buy off the shelf labeled "9mm NATO" is most likely NOT true NATO GI production and spec. ammo.

    It is just loaded up in NATO headstamped brass....SAAMI would require the "+P" box label and headstamp marking if it were running to true 9mm NATO standards.

    It is called 'marketing'.......you know, like all of SOG's NONcorrosive GI ComBloc surplus ammo!

  18. #18
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    CZ52s break barrels and that's a whole different issue, however my experience and others with Bulgarian ammo is that it is inconsistent with the occasional very powerful round.
    My tok eats them like tic-tacs but yeah, I'd keep them clear of the czechomatics

  19. #19
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    For info about the CZ52's that were blown up by "bad bulgarian" go to the Czech weapon boards and ask about it. They were debunked as poor maintenance on the gun causing the failure, not the ammo. Many thousands of rounds of this same ammo have been fired through many CZ52's without issue.

  20. #20
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    Lightbulb 762x25 Czech myth might be impart to the tremendous muzzle

    blast/fire in low light ive experenced:eek:, that opens to a point half more flame past.:eek:
    the felt recoil is a bit stiffer and the twist in the hand more noticeable with out shooting glooves.:cool:
    but the spots before your eyes , and looks on other faces at the range makes good conversation.:eek:.
    i dont know if its hotter but compared to some other commercial its fire works at dusk, because of the unburnt powder.<:D><dk
    GOD<><SAVE THE CONSTITUTION / STATES RIGHTS><>NRA

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix79 View Post
    For info about the CZ52's that were blown up by "bad bulgarian" go to the Czech weapon boards and ask about it. They were debunked as poor maintenance on the gun causing the failure, not the ammo. Many thousands of rounds of this same ammo have been fired through many CZ52's without issue.
    Hmm, new pistol, properly field stripped and cleaned and blows nearly to pieces on 32nd round. Many more like it. Literally shattered frames and barrels. All Returned to importer and not a single word in response. MAkes you wonder if its a combination of poor ammo, poor weapons design, litigation fears and warehouses full of potentially unsaleable merchandise. Fortunately ( for sellers) a big media stink would help "anti gun" and could be used to shut down importers. I personally like the looks of the CZs, Just watch what you feed it.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vintovka View Post
    Hmm, new pistol, properly field stripped and cleaned and blows nearly to pieces on 32nd round. Many more like it. Literally shattered frames and barrels. All Returned to importer and not a single word in response. MAkes you wonder if its a combination of poor ammo, poor weapons design, litigation fears and warehouses full of potentially unsaleable merchandise. Fortunately ( for sellers) a big media stink would help "anti gun" and could be used to shut down importers. I personally like the looks of the CZs, Just watch what you feed it.
    :dons tinfoil hat:

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by vintovka View Post
    Hmm, new pistol, properly field stripped and cleaned and blows nearly to pieces on 32nd round. Many more like it. Literally shattered frames and barrels. All Returned to importer and not a single word in response..
    Where can we read the details of these MANY destroyed CZ52 pistols with shattered frames and barrels?

  24. #24
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    Heres an early photograph of one to start. All we had (including this mine and one other damaged pistol) were retrieved from owners and very quickly picked up by importer. Barrel was split from breech to muzzle and lodged in slide as shown. Frame was cracked in several places. Every crack showed a peculiar "granular" look like steel that was heated red hot and dipped in water. Many pics by others have been deleted from the net for some reason but will find some more.

  25. #25
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    I believe it. I just don't see how people can look at the chamber wall thickness on a cz52, understand the roller mechanism and the defect of worn out rollers, and think the cz52 is the Terminater of handguns. Its not. They are good guns for what they are, but I do not believe they are half as strong as everyone thinks.


    Ha, I DO believe the tokarev is though....

  26. #26
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    I think i saw bigfoot in the glare on those pictures.

    There was the one website that had pictures of a CZ-52 destroyed by bulgarian. It's going to happen: these guns seem to have had a long service life and shoot high pressure ammo. After all, glocks blow up every day.
    RIP BBQ Sam

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