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Thread: Model 1905 9x56 Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine

  1. #1
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    Default Model 1905 9x56 Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine

    I have the opportunity to get a Model 1905 9x56 Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine. Is there a good site that would help with the date of manufacture, value and just general knowledge of the rifle? It is in excellent condition. I couldn’t find a lot of information on the web but I just may not be looking in the right spot.

    Thanks, Steve
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    There's not a lot of information on the web, but generally speaking, any decent MS sporting rifle is worth a thousand easily.

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    Dating a pre WWII Mannlicher-Schoenauer requires you to remove the barrelled action from the stock and look under the chamber for a 6 or 7 digit number like this 1234.18
    That would be number 1234 thru the Vienna proof house in 1918.

    Pricing, Vaarok is probably right. I personally have no use for a M1905 except as a collection filler due to a problem I had with a bubba'd M1905 many years ago, but that's just me. The 9mm M-S cartridge is just about the hottest of the Steyr proprietary rounds!

    The M1905 action was often a donor for other caliber conversions of Mannlicher-Schoenauers. No M-S firearms were factory built in non-proprietary chamberings until after 1924.

    LLS

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    Thanks for the additional information. Steve
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    Quote Originally Posted by llsierra View Post
    The 9mm M-S cartridge is just about the hottest of the Steyr proprietary rounds!
    Wouldn't that be the 9,5 x 57 MS ?

    Carcano

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    of course, the 9,5 rule in the mannlicher schönauer world. the 9x56 is the rare one of the MS rifle's. would like to find one as companion for my M 88 in 9x57 mauser.

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    Quote Originally Posted by feuerwerker View Post
    of course, the 9,5 rule in the mannlicher schönauer world. the 9x56 is the rare one of the MS rifle's. would like to find one as companion for my M 88 in 9x57 mauser.
    The really RARE one is the 10,75x57 :-). Very few MS made for this cartridge; Mod. 98 Mausers are more often seen.

    Carcano

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    On the earlier Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles, Steyr used a different model year designation on the receiver ring for each chambering. You don't find an original cartridge designation on these:
    M1900, M1903: 6.5x54 M-Sch aka .256 Mannlicher-Sch. rimless
    M 1905: 9x56 M-Sch, not identical to the 9x57 Mauser, but sometimes interchangeable due to manufacturing tolerances
    M 1908: 8x56 Mannl.-Schoenauer, again not intended to be interchangeable to 8x57 Mauser.
    M 1910: 9.5x57 M-Sch aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express
    M1924: 30-06 for export to the USA, less than 500 made, remaining stocks remarked with the metric caliber designation 7,62x63 instead of the model year.
    Any other chambering in these model year marked rifles is a later alteration done outside the Steyr factory!
    From the "M 1925" model on the "M-year" is not marked on the receiver any more. As these, as the post-WWII models, were available in several chamberings, 7x64, 8x60S, 9.3x62, 10.75x68 and again 30-06, the cartridge designation is marked on the receiver ring instead.

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    Guys, I appreciate the additional information. I should have it in several weeks and I'll get some pictures up at that time. It is a model 1905 and is chambered for the 9x56 M/S cartridge. It is missing the original rear barrel sight but it does have the correct Redfield receiver sight. I would like to find the original rear barrel sight but I have to believe that it would be next to impossible. I also need to get or make brass, get a set of reloading dies, bullets and load data...any suggestions?

    Thanks, Steve
    Just another homesick Texan that shouldn't of left in the first place!
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenjay1 View Post
    Guys, I appreciate the additional information. I should have it in several weeks and I'll get some pictures up at that time. It is a model 1905 and is chambered for the 9x56 M/S cartridge. It is missing the original rear barrel sight but it does have the correct Redfield receiver sight. I would like to find the original rear barrel sight but I have to believe that it would be next to impossible. I also need to get or make brass, get a set of reloading dies, bullets and load data...any suggestions?

    Thanks, Steve
    congatulations, your are the owner of a gentleman rifle then. erich schoeder in austria will make you a original rear sigth but be prepare for a high price
    http://www.eschoder.com/english/english-index.htm

    die set from CH4D, brass kann be made from 8x57, 30 06 etc. but you must possible reduce the base diameter of the case on a lathe. I had have similar problems with my M 88 in 9x57. CIP give an maximum diameter of 11,95 mm for the 9x57 but my old chamber, reaming before the turn of the century(1900) only accept brass with an outside diameter of 11,79mm. IIRC maximum CIP diameter for the 9x56MS is 11,80mm. lathe turning isnt the big deal at all. bullet diameter for mauser and mannlicher schoenauer is .358, my rifle shot the .357 180 grains remington hollow point great from first reloads. I believe that all .357 revolver bullets giving good paper puncher. original bulet weigth was 16 gramm and 13,3gramm.
    I have the original DWM catalog ballistic for the 9x56 here with the 9x57 mauser if its not to small to read

    http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...e=0#Post138413
    Last edited by feuerwerker; 07-26-2009 at 03:15 AM.

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    feuerwerker, WOW WOW WOW!!! Thank You for those links. There is a wealth of information not to mention the pictures of some beautiful rifles. I love the M-88, what old world workmanship.

    Thanks, Steve
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    its dangerous, if you are in classic sporting rifles once you will probaly never find out. you see i need a mannlicher schoenauer in 9,5x56 to close the gap between the 9,3x57 and the 10,75x57.
    when you find an old Suhl made M 88 sporting rifle, buy!
    if you have the rifle and the die set take a 8x57 case, resize it and try to load. if you are lucky the chamber will accept, when not take it to a lathe and reduce base diameter.
    mannlicher schoenauer are the finest sporting rifles, you will surprise what the little round will do on game. go to the swedish forum how nice the similar 9,3x57 work.
    Last edited by feuerwerker; 07-26-2009 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Rarity

    If you want a really rare Production Pre WWII Mannlicher-Schoenauer, look for a 10.75x68mm. They were made on the M1925 action, also known as the High Velocity Model. This variant is almost unknown in the USA, but appears to be slightly more common in Europe. I only know of three of them in the USA, and have some good photos of one that was located in Australia. A noted US gunbroker once claimed that there was no such thing as a 10.75x68mm M-S, but seeing and owning is believing. If he had taken an appropriate M-S magazine apart he would have seen that the 10.75x68mm cartridge would indeed fit the action, then, later the M-S was made in 6.5x68 and 8x68, so, whatever!

    LLS

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    Question What Year of Mfg. is my MS

    My 6.5 MS has the following markings
    Reciever
    OESTERR WAFFEN
    14881
    1929.21
    -15 c
    100
    Barrel
    1488
    1929.21
    C6.5
    +15
    Some proof Marks

    What does it all mean?
    Last edited by MpsaBatt; 07-31-2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: Answered in an earlier thread

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    "Oestereichische Waffenfabriksgesellschaft Steyr" = " Austrian arms factories company of Steyr" was the then name of the company.
    !4881 is the factory serial number.
    1929.21 is the proof house ledger number, meaning it is gun #1929 proofed in 1921.
    C6,5 is the caliber designation.

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    I am not a M-S proof mark specialist, however I can translate one item, the six digit number 1929.21 means weapon #1929 passed thru the Vienna Proof House in 1921. The C6.5 refers to the bore. I have heard of an all inclusive Austrian proof document, but I have never been able to lay my hands on a copy.

    Larry

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    Feuerwerker, good comments on the "growth" of one's collection, a tip of the hat, sir, I've been down the same road. (I have a few hundred Norma 9.3x57mm cases as a result, for the 9.3x57mm and for making 9.5x56mm ammo) The 9.3x57mm is a remarkably good cartridge, and essentially unknown in the USA, except for the Husqvarna rifles that pop up from time to time. (Cabela's must have purchased a thousand of them in 6.5x55mm, 9.3x57mm, and 9.3x62mm recently) The Mannlicher Collectors Association had a search going a few years ago for a 9.3x57mm M-S, and although there were repeated reports of "sightings" in the USA, none was ever confirmed. On the other hand, 9.3x57mm Mannlichers do exist in Northern Europe, being converted from 9.5mm and 9mm by professional gunsmiths. There is also an excellent but old magazine reference about the Steyr proprietary cartridges that explains why the original M-S were never chambered for the larger cartridges that were so popular in the first part of the twentieth century. Simply, the Austrians were seeing only the market within their Empire, where was no requirement for cartridges heavier than the 9x56mm or the 9.5x56mm. An interesting insight into a manufacturers process.

    Larry

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    Default More M1924 info

    Any further info on the 1924 MS would be appreciated. I own one, a half-stocked sporter with the Sequoia marking. I've read elsewhere online that a thousand were originally produced (supposedly at Steyr's insistence), and that many were returned to the factory to be reworked after failing to sell in the U.S. I've also read that the model was only produced for one year (presumably 1924), although the proof mark on mine dates it to 1928. My gun did pass through Griffin and Howe, along with a number of others of identical configuration--in August of 1932, G&H consigned ten of these (including mine) at Abercrombie and Fitch. Eight including mine were ultimately returned to G&H, and the two that sold went for a mere $65 each, an outrageous bargain even then. I have some photos of mine under the Mannlicher category on Nitroexpress.com, in a thread titled Two Uncommon Mannlichers. Thanks in advance--
    Malcolm

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    Quote Originally Posted by llsierra View Post
    Feuerwerker, good comments on the "growth" of one's collection, a tip of the hat, sir, I've been down the same road. (I have a few hundred Norma 9.3x57mm cases as a result, for the 9.3x57mm and for making 9.5x56mm ammo) The 9.3x57mm is a remarkably good cartridge, and essentially unknown in the USA, except for the Husqvarna rifles that pop up from time to time. (Cabela's must have purchased a thousand of them in 6.5x55mm, 9.3x57mm, and 9.3x62mm recently) The Mannlicher Collectors Association had a search going a few years ago for a 9.3x57mm M-S, and although there were repeated reports of "sightings" in the USA, none was ever confirmed. On the other hand, 9.3x57mm Mannlichers do exist in Northern Europe, being converted from 9.5mm and 9mm by professional gunsmiths. There is also an excellent but old magazine reference about the Steyr proprietary cartridges that explains why the original M-S were never chambered for the larger cartridges that were so popular in the first part of the twentieth century. Simply, the Austrians were seeing only the market within their Empire, where was no requirement for cartridges heavier than the 9x56mm or the 9.5x56mm. An interesting insight into a manufacturers process.

    Larry

    good morning gentleman

    thats an very interesting news for me, it would't surprice me if this was done in the old times from competent gunsmith. the mannlicher schönauer was a very labor intensive rifle, make from skilled gunsmith's and that also the reason why the steyr works were allways able to do special orders. but the magazin allone is a night mare for bubba today. if you can ever rework the MS for another cartridge maybe the change from a 9,5x56 or a 9x56 into 9,3x57 is the best.
    between the wars german firm's make a lot of M 98 rifles in 9,3x57 for the swedish market but also 9x57 and 10,75x57 sporting rifles come to surface now. its all because of the swedish gun law!



    1. 9x56 MS
    2. 9x57 Mauser
    3. 9x57 Mauser



    1. 9x57 Mauser
    2. 9,3x57 Mauser
    3. 9,5x56 MS

    this show how close this cartridges are
    Last edited by feuerwerker; 08-09-2009 at 04:50 AM.

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    [QUOTE=malco;972834]Any further info on the 1924 MS would be appreciated.]
    Apparently not all of the "1000" M1924s of the Sequoia contract ever left the factory. Ca. 1930 German catalogs of G.Frank, Hamburg / WUM, AKAH and Burgsmueller all list the 30-06 /7.62x63 chambering as an option in the "Hochrasanzbuechse" = High Velocity rifle M1925, but at a 10% discount! Interestingly, the cuts in these catalogs show the M1924 with it's distinctive 3-leaf Express sight. My M 1924, Steyr #299 has the "M1924" monicker removed and "7.62x63" crudely stamped instead. It has got a 4x Kahles scope in Vienna style mounts, matching numbers. This was a factory option in the 1930s.
    Last edited by kuduae; 08-11-2009 at 04:41 PM.

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    Thanks for your reply and pictures, kuduae. I wonder if your rifle ever had a Sequoia stamp/# as well. If so, it may have wound up underneath the front scope base. I've seen one other factory scoped 1924, apparently Sequoia #1 which was briefly owned by a friend. The Sequoia name and # were engraved in the left side of the forward mount, rather than stamped into the barrel as they are on mine. What year was your rifle proofed? My gun is Steyr # 465 (Sequoia 315) proofed in 1928. Some pix:

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    #299 proofed 1927. I am not curious enough to remove the scope mount base ring soldered over the barrel shank. I fear correct realignment will be a problem!

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    Remember guys, the proof year/date is found on the underside of the chamber in a six of seven digit number a la 12345.26, translated to mean #12345 of 1926. That is the proof stamp of record.

    Meanwhile, every record I have seen concerning the number of Sequoias has indicated that 1000 units were built, 500 units returned to Steyr because they did not sell in the USA. All were in .30-06 and the returnees were remarked as 7.62x63mm, and becoming the basis for the European M1925 and the transition in Steyr manufacture to adding non-proprietary chamberings. Have seen a few Sequoias off and on, but the good ones all seem to sell online at prices beyond my pocket book.

    LLS

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    Not that this is going to help anybody, but I have had the privilege of owning a 1905 in 9x56 for about 25 years. It is a 17" barreled, full-stocked carbine, set triggers, and produces the most magnificent fireball you've ever seen when fired at dusk.

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    Default Fireballs

    If you like cool fireballs, load some .30 Luger pistol ammo with Unique powder, I seem to remember the charge is about 5 grains, better look it up first, with a 93 to 100 grain bullet and touch it off in a dark place, like an indoor pistol range. Your little four inch barrel Luger grows a neat fireball around the muzzle so close to your hand that it is a mite surprising.

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    Default mannlicher schoenauer 1924 sequoia

    Hello all, I am new here. I was browsing the net to find out more about my mannlicher schoenauer 1924 sequoia 30.06 rifle and came across this site. It came down to me from my family and I have had it for about 15 years or so. I had it looked at by a reputable dealer a number of years back in my area and they said it was in excellent condition. it does however have a scope. I would like to know from a collectors standpoint approximately what its worth now. I understand its quite rare I do not shoot this gun. thanks for any insight.

    Frank

  27. #27
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    Howdy Frank,

    I don't know many folks here who want to stake their reputation on pricing a rifle. As has already been said, almost any M-S in prime condition is worth $1000.00, ALTHOUGH, I just came back from the Wanenmacher Gun Show in Tulsa, OK, and the only M-S to move in that show was a 90-95% MCA 7x57mm carbine at $900.00. Now, a Sequoia .30-06 is a relatively rare piece, assuming that it is also marked M1924 and does not have .30-06 or 7.62x63 engraved or scribe on the receiver ring. If it has a visible caliber marking it is a M1925, or High Velocity Model, which was the "standard" from 1925 thru WWII. Sequoia, as a company, was in business for many years.

    LLS

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    Try the website of the Mannlicher Collector's Assn.
    http://www.mannlicher.org/

    Harvey/ Ga

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    Quote Originally Posted by llsierra View Post
    I am not a M-S proof mark specialist, however I can translate one item, the six digit number 1929.21 means weapon #1929 passed thru the Vienna Proof House in 1921. The C6.5 refers to the bore. I have heard of an all inclusive Austrian proof document, but I have never been able to lay my hands on a copy.

    Larry
    What a coincidence....mine is 175 older then yours!!

  30. #30

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    I lucked out on my 9X56 MS. I got it and lo and behold a friend had a set of RCBS dies for it and he let me have them (NIB) for ten bucks I think. Next I was up at Ruger Armorer's School and a gun shop right down the road from the plant had another set of RCBS dies and I got them as well. This was back in 1979 I guess.

    I made my ammo by fire forming 8MM Mauser ammo. (.323 bullet not likely to contact .356 barrel on the way out) and I was good to go. I got some Kynoch ammo with rifle but did not shoot it. I used 358 Winchester load dope for it and figured out 250 gr. bullets worked for the factory rear sight leafs just fine.

    The fired cases come out very nicely with no swell on base. If you have good brass you can load it over and over an over till the primer pocket gets loose. After fireforming the 8MM Mauser ammo I stress relieved the neck/shoulder area. Still have the rifle after 33 years.

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