Kramers Antique restorer

[DoubleD]

Okay here is test one.



The Instruction say wipe on-wipe off.

Shake bottle well. Apply a small amount of Kramer's to a cotton or linen cloth and wipe onto surface to be treated. Moisten the surface with enough Kramer's to feed the surface and allow it to take in what can be absorbed.

My cloth turn black!

Instruction then say wipe dry with clean cloth.

Here's before.



Here's after.



The orginal metal finish is clearly visable. Spot of rust not touched. Wood stock starting to show original finish.

It does not appear the original patina has been touched.

[readyman]

Git-R-Done
Just went to Kramers web site... looks interesting.

[4077th]

Thanks for posting DD, will have to give it a try sometime on another restoration I do in the future.

[MCQueenie]

Looks like thats gonna work, DD. I've alway shied away from Kramers mainly because of the price but If it works its worth it.

[Bushido101]

Look's like it will work looks pretty good.

[DoubleD]

I can't say I am in love with it yet. The little patch I did is promising. I have original finish, patina, that hasn't been chemically scrub with unnatural material like some I have been seeing here lately. I am reminded of a 70 year old prostitute with a fresh coat of make-up hitting the streets to supplement her Sociable Security...

The original stock finish of the Gahendra was a blackish color not a natural wood color.

Kramer's is sending me some of there clarifier which is suppose to be there realy heavy duty cleaner. I also got their Bronze wool. I just used it on the rust spot. It's not rust, and it the bronze wool took it right off.


I'll do more when I get the clarifier.

[Bushido101]

Double D I used Denatured Alcohol to get the grease off my stock and after the grease was all off I and the stock was clean. I was surprised the color of the wood is still very dark. But looks good.

[DoubleD]

I don't use alcohol if there might be a finish under the gunk I might want to preserve. Alcohol will attack the finish if your are not very very carful with it.

If I wanted to get the gunk of this I would just use castille soap or murphy's oil and a scrub brush.

This Kramers stuff is something that was recommeded to me and I have been wanting to try it for some time.

From what I have been reading about this stuff, it's a one stop deal. It cleans off the nasty stuff and leaves a finish in the wood. I don't have to clean the gunk and then come back and then apply finish.

One thing that caught my attention. Look at the action screw in the before picture then look at the same screw in the after picture. All I did was wet a cloth with the restorer, wipe it on rub it around and loosen the gunk then wipe it off.

I'm not sure I would use this stuff on greasy Milsurps. To expensive. But for antiques like these rifles, I am think it could be very benefical. Let me get the entire gun cleaned up before I decide.

[Bushido101]

I see the difference you are talking about in the before and after photo's it looks like good stuff. I know its expensive but I guess I'll have to get some before the next project.

[DoubleD]

I have been sitting on this rifle for a week and once you touch it, its hard to leave it alone.

I notice the area I cleaned yesterday has leached out some more gunk. I think the literature says it will do that on particularly dirty articles. Yep, I a particularly dirty article!

Here are some more before and after...











Again I applied a small quantity restorer on a cotton cloth and rubbed it around with my finger. Then wiped the the area dry.

Look at the very nice peppered original finish!!!

The wood needs another go over.

It looks like I am going to have a very nice clean rifle with original and not restored finish. That will increase the value of my rifle.

[TommyKid]

I just ordered the Improver and the Clarifier, myself. Like you, I want to keep the original finish on this one.....
Tom

[johnc]

For what its worth, I've used the following cleaner on milsurp stocks with good results. Not my formula, it belongs to the "gun stock doctor"

4 ounces of De-natured Alcohol
4 ounces of Turpentine
4 ounces of Raw Linseed Oil (I never tried BLO)
and 1 ounce of Ammonia

In a 20 oz spray bottle. Use 0000 steel wool or green scrubby, wipe with paper towels. Wait a day between treatments and may take 2 or 3 treatments. Linseed oil in cleaner puts down an organic finish as it cleans (that's why you have to wait a day between treatments)

[TommyKid]

Makes me wonder how Kramer's would work to clean up the sling......

[Bushido101]

I have heard about Kramers for several years now, but never used it before. It look's like this might just be the project to use it on. I ordered mine today.

[TommyKid]

My order is to arrive this Friday. I plan on disassembling Gahendra #3 and the wood will be the first thing I work on. Photos to follow...
Tom

[Bushido101]

My order is supposed to be here Friday also. I am just curious about how well it cleans the wood. I have heard a lot of good things about it in last couple of years.

[TommyKid]

I'm going to start with the Clarifier and see how that goes.....

[DoubleD]

My clairifer is not suppose to be here until Thursday. I have not disassembled this rifle yet. It's killing me! I think I will do bands of restorer and clarifer side by side and see if there is difference.

[Bill/Oregon]

Douglas: I appreciate your methodical approach. Can't wait to see your results with the clarifier.

[DoubleD]

The Kramers Clarifier came this evening. I did some test strips tonight. This is some strong stuff, very strong.

The first area was the buttstock between butt plate and the cartouche.

Before



After



The duller finish is cleaning right down to the wood. Deep into even the pores.

Here is a test patch on a particularly dirty section of the forestock.



And here in the center is a strip of metal cleaned using the clarifier.



The clarifier takes less effort to clean the gunk, expecially metal. It appears to clean deep into the pores and leaves the wood dry. You will want follow up withthe Antique restorer so the wood doesn't dry out.

I am going to clean the test strip side with the Clarifier and do the other side that is untouched yet with restorer. Then I will disassemble the entire gun and see what is going inside.

[TommyKid]

Does it appear that the Clarifier is not removing the original finish from the wood as is advertised?
Thanks,
Tom

[DoubleD]

Tommy,

I'm not sure, it looks like the finish is still present. It think the restorer cleans and adds a finish and that is the difference.

[Bushido101]

It looks like the original wood color is there to me after you get the gunk off. I noticed that after using the restorer yesterday that it seems to take off the old linseed or tung oil and the grease and they used and the black dirt and gunk very well .

[TommyKid]

I used both the Restorer and Clarifier today. I can't say I'm blown away. The Clarifier did remove the black gunk from the wood as well as the metal. I can see where using some sort of abrasive pad would help. The black gunk did not get removed from the dings and wood pores, however. I got the same results from using BLO and fine synthetic wool. The good news is that the original finish has not been altered. Perhaps I'm expecting too much. This does appear to be more of a process than an immediate result. I'll keep at it.
Tom

[DoubleD]

Tommy,

Good point doesn't look like the Kramers does any better than BLO. So just to make sure I did a quick test.

Here's what I started with.



Here is the clarifier results.



Here is the restorer.



Here is the BLO.



The Kramer products were applied following instructions of wipe on and wipe off.

The BLO was applied and rubbed in and allowed to sit for 15 minutes then wiped off.

Here's all three side by side.



The Kramer products, for initial clean up seem to work faster. I think with continued application the BLO will eventually give the same results, but it might to take awhile to get there.

The Clarifier leaves the wood drier, the BLO leaves the wood oily. The Restorer leaves the wood more finished looking.

Since the Restorer is supposed to be used over the clarifier a comparison between BLO and and clarifier is irrelevant. I think before I decide the Restorer is worth the effort, I want to look at it a month after it is applied.

[4077th]

You can also clean stocks by using 0000 superfine steel wool with BLO on it. My friend has been doing stock work 21 years and this was one of the first things he taught me, it removes grime buildup and does not alter what one would call the "original finish" which is just a linseed oil or tung oil finish on these that's had years to soak in and oxidize.

[DoubleD]

So now you want me to go do a test with 0000, there just no satisfying you guys.

I did use the steel wool as I wanted an equal comparison to application method...but it is a good point. I'll be back!

[TommyKid]

Douglas,
I'm sure you'll be needing another rifle to work on, so I'll send mine over for you to continue this important experimentation....return postage paid, of course
Tom

[NORMSUTTON]

Douglas

use what's best for you

NORM

[DoubleD]

You guys are going to wear me out

Here is all 4.



After testing all 4 I am going to do the entire gun with the Kramers product. Starting by applying the Clarifier with bronze wool. Following that with Restorer applied with a cloth.

I may have some time to do this tomorrow. Today I was building the tooling to make a case holder for annealing.

[Bushido101]

The clarifer looks like it does the best job to me. A few more test spots and you going to have the stock clean.

[4077th]

Thanks for posting DD, looks like I will have to try Kramers sometime. I need another Gahendra first. :D

[DK PHILLIPS]

let soak for a few days rapped in kerosene soaked t shirt raps.
use a light touch with soaked bronze oooo wool to get crusty stuff off metel only and difficult crusty wood areas.

use a stiff used plastic scrubber pads like the ones used on school floors/ businesses the round green type cut them to hand size. scrub wood across grain first. then with grain light touch.

use ruff burlap, or blue jean material to rub harded remove build up with the grain. then across grain lighter pressure.
(pioneers soak cleaning rod in kerosene so they wouldn't break.
it lubricates the wood restores elasticity in the cells where water use to be or natural oils. ):cool:
.
wont hurt wood or most finishes and you will know by the looks when to stop and how much pressure to use.. you have to get a feel for it.
then finely Begin using dry blue jean to polish whats uncovered this will take the longest time..

apply a few days later lensed oil deleted with a little turpentine or finish of choice. its all in the pressure and knowing when to stop.:cool:
<><dk

[DoubleD]

DK, I ain't testing nothing else against the Kramers, I'm tired...have you tried this kerosene against Kramers.

Frankly the Kramers sound a lot simpler than your kerosene treatment.

[Bushido101]

After cleaning the wood, I took the gun outside to get a good look at it in the sunlight it was 103-105 degree's and in the direct sunlight I noticed the stock started to bleed oil quite a bit. I guess after cleaning the wood and getting the heavy hard black grease off that it opened up the pores and grain of the wood. I may have to bake it in the sun if the heat stay's around a while longer.

[uglysteve]

After cleaning the wood, I took the gun outside to get a good look at it in the sunlight it was 103-105 degree's and in the direct sunlight I noticed the stock started to bleed oil quite a bit. I guess after cleaning the wood and getting the heavy hard black grease off that it opened up the pores and grain of the wood. I may have to bake it in the sun if the heat stay's around a while longer.

Wrap it in paper towels, put it in a trash bag. Then put it on the dash board of your car. It will bleed a lot of oil. I did this for a week when it was 110+ out side. I will keep doing it for a while. Most of the oil is out.
Then I replaced the oil with fresh BLO. When I first got the rifle, the wood was so soft that it was easly scratched with a finger nail. Now it is hard and strong.
Steve

[Bushido101]

I am just glad to have the black grease, dirt and gunk off the wood. My stock is solid and hard it is not really oil soaked now just scattered spots. I have used the black trash bag sun bake method before and have had good results.

[DK PHILLIPS]

was just curious thats all, weren't you?
Ive had such successes with plain kerosene with little damage getting grim rust, oils off,revitalizing the woods at the same time when i was saving / doing military stuff.for myself an customers. but thanks , never needed anything else or use the Kramer's. <>< dk

[DoubleD]

DK perhaps you missed the point of this thread. This thread is about testing Kramer's and not about the different methods available. I did do a comparison of some of the more common methods. Your mention of kerosene came as I ran out of stock space, besides not having any kerosene around; I wouldn't have tested kerosene even if I did have it.

Quite frankly I passed over using kerosene and gasoline to clean stocks a long time ago. Kerosene is too harsh on my hands and too volatile. There are too many other safer products to use. I don't even like using alcohol. Alcohol, gasoline and kerosene, besides being a fire hazard also seem to attack the original finish, something you don't want to do on an antique.

Over the years, my favorite method for these jobs has become BLO and 0000 steel wool. I heard about Kramer's Antique Restorer and how great it is supposed to be. I thought this rifle would make a perfect specimen to test the Kramer’s on and see if it works. This post is to share the results.

So on with it.

I have just come from the shop where I went at the gun full bore with the Restorer. I used bronze wool and restorer. After the strip tests, I just didn't see the need for the Clarifier. I did not disassemble the gun. I just applied the restorer. First the results using Restorer vs. BLO is obvious the Restorer works faster. I should note it's obvious when you get the restorer that it has turpentine in it-you can smell it. When you apply it there is the faint smell of what I am sure must be BLO. I can't be sure, but I am pretty sure.

As I wiped the gun down the first pass, I could feel some hard spots of rust. When I went back over these spots, they were soft. They weren't rust but hard dried old grease that were softened by the restorer. What looked like wood line rust was grease.

I also notice the restorer when left on screws seemed to be wicked down into the threads and around the head. I had tried a couple of the screws earlier this week while holding the rifle in my lap. They were hard set. I tried them again a few minutes ago and they are all loose. I tried the sling swivel and barrel band screws earlier this week to get the sling off and they didn't budge. I just removed them without effort. Two of them were soaked full length. The rear band screw rust and debris was just soft from restorer.

Another thing I noticed was the bond between stock and barrel from rust, crud and nasty stuff was softened and the stock fully loose The cross pins are tight but move. I didn't drive them out but you can see the heads of them have been penetrated by the restorer.

It’s pretty clear that it’s going to take more than one application to clean this rifle up completely.

So far it’s looking like this stuff works. It cleans without damaging the original patina found on antiques. It seems to soften hard crud and penetrate rusty crudy screw.

One thing I notice you need to keep the fluid stired up it wants to separate pretty fast.

Tomorrow I might take the gun apart tomorrow.

[DK PHILLIPS]

and haven't had problems with the proper use of kerosenes being to harsh on VERY EXPENSIVE customers antique guns or the patinas ? DD

just the opposite neutralizing rust residue thats embedded in hard places and the wood next to were metal is, kerosene runs down into the screw holes helps in loosening them later and stops rust that at times reactivates the rust back to metal screws, barrels, bands years later.
and will still let lensed thinned by turpentine to penetrate wood.
sorry you ran out of stock space!

back to your topic and some questions.

i will read about your progress with Kramer's with interest and compare your results to my use of kerosenes. :cool:

i have a few questions you may or may not find out as we go to help me and others understand the process.?

1) question how does the stock except lensed oils, other finishes after the Kramer's?
2) does Kramer's stop or remove rust from wood that has absorbed rust residue, flaks for years?
3) does the wood whisker up after Kramer's?
4) doest it through the process make the wood appear or feel dry?
5) how deep does it appear to penetrate?
6) what affect does it have on rusty metal?
7) lastly where did you buy Kramer's? how much? amount in container?
8) what did BLO stand for?

thanks again for sharing your project and your Patience.:cool:

i myself being old : not to old to learn or re-affirm whats a better method.
<><dk

[TommyKid]

Here are the results of Kramer's Clarifier, followed by the Restorer. The metal cleaned up well and maintained the original finish. The wood needs more work as I'd like to see the black removed from the pores. Perhaps I'll leave the stock in a black plastic bag on my dash while I'm at work.
Tom

[DoubleD]

and haven't had problems with the proper use of kerosenes being to harsh on VERY EXPENSIVE customers antique guns or the patinas ? DD

just the opposite neutralizing rust residue thats embedded in hard places and the wood next to were metal is, kerosene runs down into the screw holes helps in loosening them later and stops rust that at times reactivates the rust back to metal screws, barrels, bands years later.
and will still let lensed thinned by turpentine to penetrate wood.
sorry you ran out of stock space!

This sounds like how the Kramers is functioning. Kramers Restorer is suposed to be natural products, but with out petroleum products.

It's a bit early to answer some of you questions. But I will



1) question how does the stock except lensed oils, other finishes after the Kramer's? The Kramers is supposed to be a cleaner and finish. Since it it is a natural finish like linseed oil, no need to add more-that's what the literature says and that is what I am trying to find out. I think it has linseed oil in it. In fact the instructions given for it's application seem to be the same as for linseed oil.

2) does Kramer's stop or remove rust from wood that has absorbed rust residue, flaks for years? So far I haven't encountered any rust like you describe. It doesn't appear this wood was salt cured like later BSA Martini's and C&R milsurps.

3) does the wood whisker up after Kramer's? No. The Kramer's is not a stripper but a cleaner finisher.

4) doest it through the process make the wood appear or feel dry? On first application I thought the clairifier did, but looking at it over night, no it does not . The restorer doesn't, after use it looks a lot like a good cleaning and finish with BLO-boiled linseed oil.

5) how deep does it appear to penetrate? I can't say for sure but it does appear to be getting into the wood and getting rid of the old finish. But still retains patina...not sure how that works

6) what affect does it have on rusty metal? I have found some rust on upper sufaces as if the rifle was stored in an upright gun rack and on the butt plate. I treated these areas with the Restorer and rubbed in with bronze wool. It knocked the sharp edges off and smoothed the rusty areas out. It to early to tell how effective it is in dealing with rust. Surface rust it removes and leaves a smooth surface. The are is still freckled like any area that gets surface rust.


7) lastly where did you buy Kramer's? how much? amount in container?Here is the link to Kramer's website. http://www.kramerize.com/Introduction.htm Several different sizes. You will find the pricing information there also. Cheap it ain't, but neither is ammo for the 577/450. But once I made the investment, I never looked back. I hope I feel the same with Kramers when I am through.

8) what did BLO stand for? Boiled linseed oil

So far the stuff works as advertised.

[Bushido101]

Tommy that wood does not look bad it' getting there.

[DK PHILLIPS]

looking good, thanks for the timely information, ill keep looking at more of your results with great interest.:D <><dk

[DK PHILLIPS]

and still not finished with the history and lots of interesting information.
very good info. for everyone to read!

good clear reading on honest approaches and clams.

talk about things i know to be true, that I'm interested in, the sources history, process. mechanics etc.

i can see why you took the plunge when i read about usages on guns.:cool:

i did relearn, learn a few tricks to use Turpentine mixed with alcohol to clean certain finishes or to remove some stains.
VERY GOOD IMFORMATION my friend indeed
will await your results<><DK