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  1. #1
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    Default Persian 98/29 Cavalry Carbine

    Anybody here have any experience with the shorty Persian? Is the Cavalry model any rarer than the full length model?

    I'm thinking about buying one and don't know what a fair price is or how well they shoot.

    Thanks in advance for any info.
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    Default persian

    a whole bunch more rare. as i understand it some were actually made in persia and some in europe like the long rifles. the experts can correct me here if i err. i think one would expect to pay 50% more for a carbine than for a comparable long rifle. again,just a guess.

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    ive seen two. also a couple on gunbroker. thats it.
    PISDETS VSEMU

  4. #4
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    There's the Persian model 30 carbine which was made by CZ during the 1930's and then the later Iranian model 1949 which was made in Iran at a factory which was equipped and set up for them by the Czechs. The Persian model 1930's are much harder to find compared to the Iranian model 1949. And they kick like a mule when you shoot them.
    Last edited by NavyGunner; 07-23-2009 at 10:49 PM.
    NavyGunner

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  5. #5
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    Default

    Check out this old post for more info on these handy rifles.

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...=persian+rifle
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  6. #6
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    the Persian Mauser line-up is the 98/29 long rifle, Vz.24 short rifle/carbine, M.30 short rifle, and the M.49 carbine. the 98/29 is fairly easy to find, and in my experience the M49 comes up for sale somewhat often as well (although much less common than the 98/29). I have only ever seen one Persian Vz.24 for sale, not to mention there is a severe lack of information available for it on the internet, so i would personally say that one is a "rare" rifle. i have seen one M30 for sale in my time collecting (which is not as long as some), and i let it go because i was a stupid bastard (and i have regretted it ever since).

    the M30 short rifle and the M49 carbine are similar and seem to get mixed up often, but they do have their differences. as far as i know, the M30 was only made by the Czechs; it has a unique "saddle ring" attached to the rear barrel band, and the front barrel band is the typical H-shaped band.
    the M49, as far as i know, was only made in Tehran, and has a different front barrel band than the M30, no saddle ring, and the sling slots are on the side of the rifle, as opposed to the bottom, like on the M30. DocAV made a lengthy post on the forums a while ago detailing the difference between a "short rifle" and a "carbine"; it was a very interesting read.

    you can also usually tell where the rifle was made by the appearance of the crest on the receiver (the Czech-stamped crest vs the Tehran-stamped "cowardly lion" crest), and the type of wood the stock is made of.

    I have been looking for a M30 short rifle for ages now, ever since i let that first one go. it has been first and foremost on my milsurp wish list.


    so to answer your questions directly:

    depending on what you mean by "cavalry model", yes the little rifles are more uncommon than the big ones. they are good shooters, and as already mentioned they will kick the hell out of you but will make quite a fun muzzle flash, too. price wise, a matching minty 98/29 goes for $600-700....but the other models seem to be rather unappreciated. i think i've seen matching M49's go for $400-600; i have no clue what a good price for a Persian Vz.24 would be.....i guess it's just what a collector would be willing to pay. Vz.24's are just under-appreciated anyway, so i guess it doesnt matter how rare the Persian model is. the immaculate M30 i passed on was $800, which might be considered high....but it's the only one i've seen for sale, AND it was in amazing condition.

  7. #7
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    Default M30 Carbine

    Agree. The M30 is a tough find in original condition. Most I have seen were rebuilt to like new or all original & ratty. The VZ24 is another tough one in original condition. I have posted these before but thought the guys who had not seen these might like to have a look. Love those Brno's. First two pictures are of a like new VZ24/1317 date the third is a comparison between the three types.Carbine pictured is a M49. JH

    PS: Nobody has better guns or takes better pictures of those guns than Jimmy C, NOBODY!

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    Hey Jim I would beg to differ on who has better guns. Ive seen a few of yours, and well I'll gladly trade you a few of mine for some of yours!!!

    Thanks for the photo compliment. If you take enough photos your bound to get a few good ones.

    That Persian Vz/24 of yours is a beauty!! Nothing but Czech quality!!
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  9. #9

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    I picked up a very nice Persian M49 a while ago, but I have yet to see one with an original M49 sling, nor have I ever seen a picture of one. Does anyone here have such a critter?

    LDHare

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes 58 View Post
    Anybody here have any experience with the shorty Persian? Is the Cavalry model any rarer than the full length model?

    I'm thinking about buying one and don't know what a fair price is or how well they shoot.

    Thanks in advance for any info.
    They are not common so if you can, I would pick one up. I have a 1949 carbine and is very accurate. I like shooting hot Turk ammo in it cause it puts out a huge flame out the bore, sort of like a flamethrower. The recoil is nasty but is a fun little carbine to have. As far as price, I have not seen one for less than $600.

  11. #11
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    Default Love the fireball!

    I have had the pleasure of shooting a few of these short barreled rascals with the infamous '50's ROMO. Now the "Turk" ammo fireball is new to me..... I will check it out!

    Range report to follow!!!


    A longtime poster from out west ( I won't say his name but,...his initials are CD) had a really cool pic of himself creating a nice fireball with the 50's ROMO!!

    Neat carbines!!!


    Draybo *bigsmile*
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  12. #12
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    Thanks for adding the comparation pictures, i know understand the differences between M98/29 and Vz.24. best regards,Andy

  13. #13
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    John Wall is offline Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
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    Quote Originally Posted by LDHare View Post
    I picked up a very nice Persian M49 a while ago, but I have yet to see one with an original M49 sling, nor have I ever seen a picture of one. Does anyone here have such a critter?

    LDHare

    Yes, here are five somewhat blurry and hastily taken pictures of a presentation M1949 now in the arms museum at Springfield Armory in Springfield MA. Sling details are visible in four of the pictures. After seeing this, I found that I had one of these in a box of old slings in the attic. There are no Persian, or any other markings, on this sling. There are several ways that the M49's buttstock have been configured to atach this sling. I think the most common is like the M1 carbine where the sling is looped through the butt around a metal bar. In the case of the M1 carbine, it's the oiler; in the case of the M49, it's the center bar of a brass buckle-like insert, slightly visible in the first picture.

    Regards,
    John

    PS: "M30" is not the correct nomenclature for the original Czechosloval Brno-made carbine. The histories of Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno refer to this as the Model 98/29 musketoon. Thirty thousand were made between 1930 and 1938.
    Last edited by John Wall; 07-23-2009 at 07:31 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Musketoon

    Thanks John and all for your input. To be quite honest I hit the pay now button on a gunbroker.com carbine, got cold feet at the amount I agreed to pay, then came to this forum to see if I'd been had or not. I bought the little carbine on a hunch and from the input I received from you, it appears that my hunch was good. From the information I received from you all it appears that I lucked out and purchased a BRNO made Persian "Musketoon" after all, which is apparently quite a rare find.

    The stock is dirty and dry but all of the metal on the carbine is covered with cosmoline (including the bore). Whether or not it was originally applied at the BRNO factory or it had been used and then prepared for storage I have not a clue. I do know that on my initial inspection it appears that the front barrel band is pretty much glued on so I might have some trouble taking it apart. There is no rust on the outside but again I'll know it all when I get it apart.

    Here is the link to the original gunbroker.com ad for the carbine, you can look at it and judge for yourselves if it is BRNO made or Iranian made. You can also see the painful truth as to the amount I paid and you can make up your minds if I was rooked or if I struck gold.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=133503997

    Any observatons? Opinions? Well, positive or negative would be welcome.

    Thanks again............
    I'd rather believe in God and find out I was right, than not believe in God and find out I was wrong......

  15. #15
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    Default Musketoon

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=133503997

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  16. #16

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    Hello John:
    Thank you for posting the pictures of the M29 carbine sling. I suspected that there may have been some sort of square brass insert to secure the buttstock end of the sling, but I had never see a photo that included the original sling. The buttstock cut out in my carbine is tappered, so the M1 carbine oiler, or a simple rod arrangement didn't seem to be correct.

    I don't know how many of these are floating around, but at least now I know what to look for thanks to you.

    LDHare

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    PS: "M30" is not the correct nomenclature for the original Czechosloval Brno-made carbine. The histories of Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno refer to this as the Model 98/29 musketoon. Thirty thousand were made between 1930 and 1938.
    good to know, i'll keep that in mind from now on.

  18. #18
    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
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    John, attached are some photos of the sling on my M49. All I can say for sure is that it came with the carbine. Note that the buttstock sling keeper is a steel piece. The sling on my M29 is similar but, naturally, is attached to a butt swivel. I’ve also taken a minute to show photos of the rear sight on this carbine. It features Arabic numerals, has the same inspection symbol and finish as other parts on the carbine, and is rather crude to say the least. Is there any info available to verify this is not an original rear leaf?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post

    PS: "M30" is not the correct nomenclature for the original Czechosloval Brno-made carbine. The histories of Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno refer to this as the Model 98/29 musketoon. Thirty thousand were made between 1930 and 1938.
    Great now that I know this I have changed my signature to a more correct version.
    Last edited by kampfy; 07-23-2009 at 06:57 PM.
    Looking for a BYF luger rear toggle pin number 84.

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    Here are some pix of mine...worn, but no problems at all. Stock was lightly sanded at one time though. I picked it up as a novelty a few years ago for $300 and have never done anything with it, much less screwed up my courage enough to shoot it, figuring it would be on par with a Steyr m95 and I'm long past the age of enjoying being hammered (in the shoulder by a rifle that is...there are other means of getting hammered that still bring pleasure). Sorry for the poor pix, but I took them years ago with a less technologicially advanced camera and have never updated them.

  21. #21
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    Here is a photo of the original brass sling "keeper" which came stuck in the butt stock of my Persian model 49 carbine and two of the reproductions I have made in the past.



    If there is enough interest I might make a few more.






    Last edited by JIMMY C; 07-24-2009 at 05:54 PM.
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  22. #22
    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
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    Jimmy, mine is pretty; yours is beautiful! Your rear sight leaf is like mine also. The fonts, if you want to term them that, look the same. I say 'if you want to term them that' because the numerals look like they were made by someone who remembered seeing them in a book one time.

  23. #23
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    Hello Johannes58,

    The rifle looks nice.
    My only concern for you is that the bolt handle looks like a different style bolt, and that floorplate is deffnitley German ww2. Looks like a Astrawerke floor plate.

    I am just learning about these karbines from the pictures posted, so admit to being totally new to them. Did they used captured ww2 German and maybe ,,Hungarian parts ?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by don w View Post
    Hello Johannes58,

    The rifle looks nice.
    My only concern for you is that the bolt handle looks like a different style bolt, and that floorplate is deffnitley German ww2. Looks like a Astrawerke floor plate.

    I am just learning about these karbines from the pictures posted, so admit to being totally new to them. Did they used captured ww2 German and maybe ,,Hungarian parts ?
    The bolt posted looks correct, checkered on the flat area of the handle. Floorplate is numbered and is indeed a German replacement with waffen mark. I checked my 49 carbine and the floorplate is unnumbered. I have posted a couple of picture of my rifle.
    I'm missing the large head blued screw on the front of the rear sight. What Mauser variant part can I use as a replacement and who would carry it?
    Last edited by Red Nine; 07-25-2009 at 10:34 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Nine View Post
    The bolt posted looks correct, checkered on the flat area of the handle. Floorplate is numbered and may be a replacement. I checked my 49 carbine and the floorplate is unnumbered. I have posted a couple of picture of my rifle.
    I'm missing the large head blued screw on the front of the rear sight. What Mauser variant part can I use as a replacent and who would carry it?
    i would assume the rear sight screw is the same as on the VZ24.....but that's just a guess on my part. try numrich....

    http://www.e-gunparts.com/product.as...KU=1032740&MC=

  26. #26
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    Johannes58. The picture you posted of your carbine appears to have been restocked with beech wood (or whatever Iran used) Originals were walnut. Stock was probably changed during rebuild. Mine was also rebuilt and all numbers match except bolt.

    For you guys looking for a VZ24 you should be aware there was the one with the full lion Persian crest. But the early one had only the crown, quite small, that you see on top of the full crest. (located over the Cech name, etc. on rec top.) I found one of these at a small gun show 2 yrs. ago for 250 bucks. Probably 70% blue and like all Persians, no rust. M/M bolt, has Persian number on it, while rifle is regular numbers.

    PS: For you youg'ens, all these rifles were sold back during the 60's, Hunter Lodge, and others. They all cost less then 50 bucks and there seemed no limit on them (advertised for months).

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    fredh is offline Platinum Bullet Member with clusters
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    Jimmy, it looks like the serial number on your M49 is 19926. My M49 is 19845 which is very close to yours. I'll bet there's a range with legitimate Arabic numeral stamped rear sight leaves. This is more than coincidence. We really need serial numbers to settle it one way or the other.

  28. #28
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    Thanks CM for the info. The shipping is a bit high for a little screw.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes 58 View Post

    Here is the link to the original gunbroker.com ad for the carbine, you can look at it and judge for yourselves if it is BRNO made or Iranian made. You can also see the painful truth as to the amount I paid and you can make up your minds if I was rooked or if I struck gold.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=133503997

    Any observatons? Opinions? Well, positive or negative would be welcome.

    Thanks again............
    You got the real deal (BRNO), even if it did pick up a strange floorplate somewhere along the road. You paid more than I would be willing to, but, hey, if you've got it, go for it. My price range is more like the El Salvador VZ 12/33 I just bought.

    Bill

  30. #30
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    Default Danke Geladen.........

    I've fired the little carbine twice now and it shoots right on; the action is as smooth as butter. Heck, if I paid a little too much, well I'm not complaining. I'll sand the stock (as mentioned it may be an armory replacement but it is stamped with the correct number) and probably use some oil based stain on it.

    From now on, when I'm in the pickup, so is the little carbine.
    I'd rather believe in God and find out I was right, than not believe in God and find out I was wrong......

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johannes 58 View Post
    I've fired the little carbine twice now and it shoots right on; the action is as smooth as butter. Heck, if I paid a little too much, well I'm not complaining. I'll sand the stock (as mentioned it may be an armory replacement but it is stamped with the correct number) and probably use some oil based stain on it.

    From now on, when I'm in the pickup, so is the little carbine.


    Please consider NOT sanding and staining the stock. If not to retain the originality and history of the carbine, then to avoid reducing the value.

    Bill

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