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Thread: 12GA FH- Real Big Bore-

  1. #271
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

    First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
    with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
    groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
    quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
    in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

    Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
    57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
    Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
    REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
    with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
    640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
    case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
    Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

    Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
    fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
    fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

    Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
    the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
    and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
    speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
    much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
    50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
    at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
    the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
    Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
    better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
    smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
    is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
    be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
    offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
    problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

    Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
    12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
    and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
    huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
    is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
    which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
    It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
    many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
    or in sabots if we can find some.ED

  2. #272
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
    and locked on base types.

    First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
    I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
    tight, into the base.

    Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
    buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
    slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
    The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

    And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
    Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
    many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

    Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
    discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
    Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
    and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
    3.5" RMC cases.

    Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
    in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
    is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
    The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
    I wish the BPI was full size like the others
    and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........

    Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
    50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
    a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
    Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
    loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
    the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

  3. #273
    Join Date
    Dec 2011


    If somebody wanted to get into this quick, easy and cheap, NEF made a 12ga turkey gun with a 3 1/2 chamber and screw in chokes. Buy a rifled choke and you can just kick the snot out of your self. Mine came from the factory with a large iron bar in the stock.

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  5. #274
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    And you can drill and add two more bars in the butt,
    and double thick pads.And there are smooth bore
    slugs that are great also.

    Some more slug setups and ideas.

    First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
    locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
    It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
    counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
    I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
    Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

    2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
    With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

    3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
    1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
    A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
    too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
    These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

    4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
    58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

  6. #275
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
    First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
    They look like Berdan primed. Run from
    36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

    Second is a paper case clad with
    thin brass nearly to the top.

    Third is picture of paper case crimped into
    the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
    pictured above with a Dixie slug.

    Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
    that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
    A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
    slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

    For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
    that have been available, for reloading guys. That
    the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
    at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
    most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
    more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
    had to work with.

    I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
    Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
    heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
    30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
    Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
    Can be loaded faster.

    No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
    than witches ---, and no time.
    I am trying to find who makes these.There are
    about 2000 injection mold companies in US

  7. #276
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
    with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
    section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
    slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
    powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
    so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
    isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
    accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
    This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
    setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
    it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
    seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
    Slug is .629" diameter.

    Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
    the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
    nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

    Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
    Man what nice old guns.

    Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
    close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
    might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
    sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

  8. #277
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
    like ones we want to get made for reloading.
    They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
    I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
    barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
    Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
    The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
    base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
    have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
    make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

    Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
    different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
    I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
    All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
    near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
    cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
    test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
    the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
    system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
    and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

    What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
    weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
    sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
    That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
    Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
    percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
    cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
    disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
    The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
    both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

    Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
    with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

    Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
    around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
    we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
    to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
    the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
    reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
    All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
    And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
    being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
    over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
    third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
    Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

  9. #278
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
    looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
    can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
    If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
    high as others who have to set up complete machines.
    We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
    made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
    have similiar design as the ones pictured below
    but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
    with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
    what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
    With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
    Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
    We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
    58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
    as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
    58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
    The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
    and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
    40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

    Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
    Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
    585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
    fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
    my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
    They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
    Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

    Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
    break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
    break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
    actions like this and great value for no more
    than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
    We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
    use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
    working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
    type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
    smooth barrels.

    Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
    a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
    2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
    on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
    on nice looking slug gun.Ed

  10. #279
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    In my WVA mind!


    bottom is that a Saure action?

  11. #280
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Massachusetts USA


    Hello hubel458-I have been looking at this thread for a while as I enjoy big boar firearms. I became excited when you posted a picture of the Martini Cadet with a 12ga. I have a Martini Cadet in the cabinet and I was going to sell it until I saw the above picture. Please direct me to obtain additional information on the configuartion.
    Thanks PJ308
    " Until now, we knew that Greeks were fighting like heroes; from now on we shall say that the heroes fight like Greeks."
    Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of Britain - 1940.

    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco-from the Good the Bad and the Ugly

  12. #281
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    I don't know what double is, I just found picture.
    That isn't a Cadet it is the bigger 'Greener Martini'
    designed bigger especially for big diameter cases like 12ga.
    He replaced the thin shotgun barrel with heavy rifled barrel,
    and had fancy stock made.

    The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
    58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
    sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie
    Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
    Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
    slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

    Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
    Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
    Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
    Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
    And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
    when folks cast their own.

    I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
    suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
    quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

    From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
    of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
    at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
    to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
    for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
    to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
    fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
    regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
    they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
    have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
    for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
    a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
    their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
    factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
    more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
    one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
    a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.

    Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
    we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
    the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
    an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
    to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
    setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

    Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
    and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
    Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
    all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
    and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
    extra weight.

  13. #282
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
    and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
    The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
    The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
    We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
    style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
    aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
    due the economy.

    Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
    Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
    And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
    want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

    4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
    gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
    It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
    20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

  14. #283
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
    In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
    and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
    shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
    you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
    wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
    straight as possible for accuracy.

    Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
    velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
    which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
    slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
    of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
    sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
    fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
    with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

    Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
    with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

    Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
    "Lethal" and the "destructor".

    Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
    Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

  15. #284
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    I think we found good overall sabot design that will
    be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
    and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
    It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
    but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
    for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
    using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
    which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
    of slower powder, better velocity with less case
    expansion, and more reloads possible.

    We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
    for penetration until now.. They did very well,
    two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
    timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
    Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
    for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
    Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
    nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
    that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
    Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
    and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
    way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
    we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
    bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
    leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
    compared to short fullbore ones....

    Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
    58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
    on.There are many makers and brands and styles
    of molds and weights available.

    Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
    lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
    I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
    bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
    The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
    like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
    diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

    Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
    Great looking gun..Ed

  16. #285
    Join Date
    Apr 2010


    Mr. Hubel,

    Have you considered using Type K copper tube for your various lengths of 12 ga cases? 5/8" tube is 0.750" OD and turning down to 0.729 diameter would still leave 0.0385" wall thickness to play with--sounds stout. Do you believe corrosion would be an issue with powder stored in contact with copper? I may try soldering on some standard brass bases to some turned-down 5/8" type K copper tube this week.


    Edit: Unfortunately, Type K tube isn't the easiest to come by, plus it's about $80-$100 per foot. Home Depot carries type L (medium-weight) and type M (light-weight) copper tube that may require some further experimentation. I like the idea of turning down BMG brass and installing 12 ga rims as well.

    I did some experimentation with Sharkbite tubing (polyethylene, I believe) with sufficient wall thickness to be about twice as thick as commercially-available plastic hulls. Machined easily with HSS tooling and trimmed to length--I have yet to machine the case heads to go with the plastic tubes. The Sharkbite rounds would be too thick to either roll-crimp or star-crimp, so it may get an over-slug/over-shot wad and some form of lightweight sealant to retain it.
    Last edited by jkpq45; 05-15-2012 at 09:32 AM.

  17. #286
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
    to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
    with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
    In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
    alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
    exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
    a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
    gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
    They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
    I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
    2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
    from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
    down to 350 gr and less.

    Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
    of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
    and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
    to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
    it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
    here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

    In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
    gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
    all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
    Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
    lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
    Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
    in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
    on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

    Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
    for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

    You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

    the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

    Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
    all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
    The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
    The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

    The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
    The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
    The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

    The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
    Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

    But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
    it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

    AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
    heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
    at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
    Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

  18. #287
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
    in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
    58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
    to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
    for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
    We are working on it.

    Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
    thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
    load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
    great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
    in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
    guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

    Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
    they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
    others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
    and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
    the accuracy.

    On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
    case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
    I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

  19. #288
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

    Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
    The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
    36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
    butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

    Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
    in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
    This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
    More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
    For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
    deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
    heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
    Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

    I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
    down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
    the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
    Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
    allow it to tip or go off center.

    Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
    700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
    50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

    Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
    stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

  20. #289
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    With an other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
    barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
    in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
    5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

    Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
    10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
    A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
    58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
    And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
    Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
    done later this month and will be doing cases then.
    Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
    He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
    I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
    by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
    a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
    real good deal..

    He will ship whole bulk order to me.
    I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
    I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
    to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
    100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
    I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
    and get it to me and I send them on to him.
    I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
    the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
    Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
    money ready to go for over 700.
    Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

  21. #290
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

    Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
    two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
    little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
    Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
    barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
    balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

    Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
    Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
    muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
    seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

    Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
    and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and
    added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
    16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

    PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
    He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
    as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
    first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
    me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
    no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
    compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
    enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
    My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

    For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
    send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
    Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US...


  22. #291
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
    58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

    Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
    in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
    bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
    the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
    The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
    measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

    Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
    just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
    In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
    my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
    8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
    Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

    Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
    rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
    Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
    have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
    partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
    also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
    action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

    And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

  23. #292
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
    soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
    We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
    for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
    this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
    if your interested contact me.

    We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
    and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
    58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
    load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
    also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
    commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
    470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
    That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

    Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
    super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
    Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

    Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
    heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
    I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
    to show all the uses the case has.

    I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
    It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
    I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
    a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

  24. #293
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Good question........


    Hello SIr, can you tell me what might be the strongest action for a SxS 12FH??? I have a Mossy 695 that may become a 585NH after this deer season. Thanks again Sir Craig
    ISAIAH 41:10

    I'd rather be biblically correct than politically correct.......

  25. #294
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    None of 12ga SXS have heavy enough barrel muzzles for our full tilt 12ga FH
    long case loads, so you would monoblock in heavy barrels like Rob is
    doing as shown in eartlier pictures. Best one seems to be the Spanish
    Zabalas for best price.

    I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
    has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
    chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't how
    heavy the rifled barrel is yet.Also will have pics of
    585HE case samples from the first run
    of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

  26. #295
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
    It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
    with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

    Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
    cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
    They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
    He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
    with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
    shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
    so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
    Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

    This case can be used in different style guns.,
    Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
    Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
    Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
    is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
    we just got done.

    I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
    etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
    tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
    fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
    ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

    First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
    and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
    Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
    what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
    they don't need a special holder.

    In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
    in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
    which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
    The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
    He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
    that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
    these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
    we get money built up for an order..Ed

  27. #296
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
    one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
    Nice looking gun.

    Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
    shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
    Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
    Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
    Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
    And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
    20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
    measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

  28. #297
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
    on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

    Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
    12ga barrel for it..

    Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
    with putting on a thumbhole stock.

    Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
    make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
    five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
    if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

  29. #298
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
    various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
    seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
    are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
    You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
    And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
    CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
    that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
    muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
    volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
    And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
    . It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
    needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
    It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
    Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
    There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
    54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
    jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
    of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
    to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
    CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
    Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
    Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

    Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
    singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
    and the Magtech 199 shown above.

    Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
    We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
    the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
    with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

  30. #299
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
    wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
    We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
    shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
    Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
    We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
    in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
    12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
    SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
    bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

    I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
    case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
    on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
    the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
    unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
    room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.

    Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
    to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
    and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
    Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
    and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
    As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
    card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
    There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
    stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

    Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
    was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up

    Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
    It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
    like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
    deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
    cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
    heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
    peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
    BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
    And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed

  31. #300
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
    be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
    45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
    This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

    More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
    them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
    they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
    combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
    right is factory SPW.

    Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
    12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
    Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
    That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
    in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
    short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
    Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.

    Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
    barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
    back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed

    As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
    24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
    reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
    say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
    and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
    airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
    can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
    speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

  32. #301
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
    and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

    Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
    roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
    bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
    screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
    with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

    Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
    ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
    Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
    slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
    about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

    Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
    and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
    the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

  33. #302
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
    the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
    get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
    these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
    as 3' plastic crimped little long.

    Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
    10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
    VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

    Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
    Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
    a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
    in wads as opposed to fullbore.

    Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
    cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
    guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
    make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
    in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
    4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
    And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
    for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
    newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
    possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
    Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

    Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
    barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
    Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
    what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
    .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
    Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
    85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
    instead of 65,000...Ed

  34. #303
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

    The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
    of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
    Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
    perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
    stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
    powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
    Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
    only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
    We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

    All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
    With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
    Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
    bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
    is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
    other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

    The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
    sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
    Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
    Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
    slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
    curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

    You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
    that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
    It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
    shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
    miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

    Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
    with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

  35. #304
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
    Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
    solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
    2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
    1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
    Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
    on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
    Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
    If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
    hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
    and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

    Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
    white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
    I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
    smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
    To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
    You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.

    After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
    sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
    will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
    More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
    Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

    As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
    that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
    velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

    For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
    FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
    For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
    for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
    Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
    and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

    In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
    I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
    480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
    and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"

    Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
    Or $20 for 50 postage included..
    .Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
    WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed

  36. #305
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
    58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

    Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
    get them and get loads working.

    And A little funnin humor for us big bore nuts..Ed

  37. #306
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
    First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
    Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
    the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
    headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
    slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
    But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
    cushion wads.

    The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
    base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
    Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
    Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
    fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

    For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
    For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
    For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

    For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
    For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
    For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

    I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
    bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
    Many of you need to get in on the fun.
    Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
    perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

    Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
    barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
    springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
    for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
    the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
    for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

    And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
    in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
    to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
    Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..

  38. #307
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    The sabots aren't moving and I got to get funds out of
    them asap, emergency bill coming... And seeing as how
    we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
    and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
    set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling
    them fast in next few weeks . So to get these moving
    out fast and getting tested, and we pay our bills,we will
    be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
    We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
    the guys can see what we have found that works.

    Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
    of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
    we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
    So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
    300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

    Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
    plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
    years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
    that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
    they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
    from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please
    help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

  39. #308
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
    next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
    as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
    Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
    the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
    top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

    Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
    at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
    mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
    impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
    straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
    we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

    Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
    will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

  40. #309
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
    First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
    bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
    barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

    And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if
    base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
    tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
    On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
    which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

    Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
    flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different
    styles of Minies.

    Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
    12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
    for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about
    where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
    They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

  41. #310
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
    20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

    Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

    Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
    but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

    Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
    sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
    145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
    having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

    Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
    puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
    Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

    Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
    to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
    TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

  42. #311
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
    Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

    A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
    and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
    of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
    with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

    Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
    of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
    Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
    and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed


  43. #312
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
    you can get molds for from Lyman,
    Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
    the best size for the 12ga sabots.

    A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

    Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
    650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
    Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
    straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
    the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

  44. #313
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
    the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
    and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
    It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

    My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
    Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
    the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
    Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

    He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
    IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
    go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
    EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
    and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
    sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
    Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
    problems occur go to 4759.

    What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
    wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
    sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
    of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
    4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
    with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
    way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
    the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
    good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

    I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
    across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
    the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

    Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
    wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
    building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
    a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

  45. #314
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    In the heart of the Confederacy, and proud of it!


    Ed, I may have missed this somewhere, but do you have a website? I'm interested in playing with some of this stuff and want to get educated as to what's out there.


    In Dixie Land I'll take my stand, to live and die in Dixie!

  46. #315
    Join Date
    Dec 1969


    I don't have a site for what is in these forums. Plan on getting one.
    Maybe this winter.

    Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
    black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
    an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
    impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
    he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
    the faster powder did for him.

    Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
    the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
    The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
    180 degree crimp down on top of it.

    We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
    they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
    1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
    Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

    Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
    The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
    We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
    single shots and checking couple lever actions.
    Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

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