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  1. #1

    Default N korea and vietnam sks ?

    Does anyone know when they started and ended production of the sks in these countries? What is an average price for one of these? There was a vietnamese on the wts board awhile back but was way high. Thanks

  2. #2
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    I don't think vietnam ever produced their own SKS rifles, they aquired lots from China and Russia.
    North Korean SKS are like the tooth fairy. I've heard of them but never seen one. This would be one of the rarest sks to score
    If someone was selling an SKS as "Vietnamese" and had a large price tag on it it was probably a documented bringback from the Vietnam war

  3. #3
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    I do not believe that information has been published.

  4. #4
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    there was a korean sks on one of the auctions a few days ago. it was high high. looked almost like a russian stock..... was said to be brought back by a GI that shot the original owner. looked pretty good.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  5. #5
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    Both North Vietnam and North Korea made their own variant of the SKS carbine.

    Below is a photo of the left side receiver markings on a North Vietnamese SKS.The star with the number "1" inside it was the marking the North Vietnamese applied to their locally produced carbine.


    Last edited by JIMMY C; 08-05-2009 at 08:09 PM.
    I never met a gun I didn't like!
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  6. #6
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    MTMN, the low end price for NVA's and Koreans seems to be about $1500. here's two NVA's that have sold on GB in the last 3 months.

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=133406401
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=131614258

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up North Korean Type 63 and North Vietnamese SKS (long)

    To my knowledge there is no offical information on the years of manufacture on these two types of SKS's. There is some research being done by collectors to try and figure out the production of these two rifles for up coming books on the subject of the SKS, but it is all a guessing game at this time. The North Vietnamese (Star 1) marked blade bayonet SKS were not manufactured by Vietnam but probably assemble from parts that were supplied by the Chinese, as the wood in the stocks seem to be a different type compared to the Chinese manufactured SKS's. It is possible that the North Vietnamese did manufacture the wood stocks an assemble these rifles from chinese manufactured actions and barrels. The other thing is that all the North Vietnamese SKS's fall in the same serial number range of 620,000 to 650,000 serial numbers which is about 30,000 SKS's. The Chinese manufactured the M21 SKS for the North Vietnamese as a contract during the early part of the Vietnam War and these SKS's were in the 800,000 to 900,000 serial number range. It is very possible that the North Vietnamese SKS's were the first contract by the Chinese in barrel actions that were assembled and manufactured there own stocks & handguards, an then later the M21's were totaly manufactured for the North Vietnamese due to the increase of the war. I would like to find either a N.Vietnamese SKS or M21 (Blade bayonet) that fell in the 700,000 serial range to fill in the gap.
    The Chinese also sold the North Vietnamese Type 56 SKS's manufactured by Arsenal /26\ during the Vietnam war that were both Blade and Spike bayonet versions. The Chinese SKS's Type 56 (Blade version) showed up with 7,000,000 series serial numbers (1963 mfg.) thru 9,000,000 (1965 mfg.) which was the last year of the blade bayonet of the Type 56. The 10,000,000 serail number was the first year of the Type 56 to use the spike bayonet and sill had the lighting cut on the bolt which was not used on the 11,000,000 series of Type 56's. I feel that the last year of manufacture for the Type 56 SKS's used in Vietnam was Arsenal /26\ SKS's in the 14,000,000 series serial numbers. There were only Arsenal /26\ Chinese SKS's used in the Vietnam War, all other arsenals were manufactured after the end of the Vietnam War from the data that I have been able to piece together.
    The North Korean SKS Type 63 (adopted 1963 by North Korea), was probably the last country to start manufacturing the SKS other then Albania that there arsenal was set up by the Chinese in the late 60's. I have been trying for a few years the letter code on the serial numbers of the North Korean SKS to figure out the year of manufacture. From what I have seen from the other countries, E.Germany 1958-60 and Romania 1956(?), 1957 to 1960 these rifles were not in front line service but for a short time before being replaced by the AK. I doubt that the N.Korean SKS Type 63 was manufacture more then 2 to 3 years, closer to two years as a stop gap rifle until the AK production of the Type 58 was in full production which changed over in 1968 to the stamped receiver version of the AK (Type 68). The N.Korean SKS Type 63 was the only SKS version to be equiped with a gas cut-off to fire rifle grenades during the Vietnam War. It is not known if they were manufactured by the N.Koreans in this version or modified by the N.Vietnamese, as there were some Type 63's without gas cut-offs captured during the war. I have seen basicly three versions of the Type 63 that were captured in the Vietnam War, 1st model-no gas cut-off (with sold or laminated stock), 2nd model- gas cut-off but not drill and taped on side of receiver for grenade launcher sight (Copy of US. M-7 Carbine grenade launcher & sight) and 3rd model is complete with gas cut-off, grenade launcher and sight to fire the Chinese Type 62 AT R/G (copy of US. A.T. grenade). The last two models of the Type 63 had laminated stocks with extra recoil rods inserted in to the stock on strength. There is also a parade model of the Type 63 with a side folding bayonet that has some silver or chrome dragon inserts into the stock, but this is a post war version only. This is all of the information that I have been able to compile over the last 20+ years on these two versions of the SKS, but alot of this is strictly conjured up information that I have collected thru the years. This is not a offical statement, but research of many years and on going subject. I hope this has help answer some of your questions.
    "Tex"

  8. #8

    Default Thank you very much

    Thank you very much , this the most info I've been able to find and has been a great help. All your bits and pieces over the years have given you a great wealth of knowledge and I just want to thank everyone for sharing what you know.
    Last edited by MTMN; 08-06-2009 at 12:02 AM.

  9. #9
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    Great information there! I also study the North Korean rifles. Very interesting.

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up

    My NVA SKS is 655605. It is a papered 68 bring back in VG+ condition and all matching. When I got it I thought it was a ruskie.
    Sarge
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  11. #11
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    Wow, NVA SKS's have really gone up in selling price in the last couple years! I sold mine for $800 and was glad to get it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatelk View Post
    Wow, NVA SKS's have really gone up in selling price in the last couple years! I sold mine for $800 and was glad to get it.
    I paid about $800 for both of mine and glad I did.

  13. #13
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    Thumbs up Sarge, what is the dtae on your capture papers on the N.Vietnamese SKS

    Dear Sarge:
    Can you tell me what the date of capture on your North Vietnamese SKS is, as I am trying to compile when these rifles were first introduced into the Vietnam War. I feel that the North Vietnamese SKS's were the first SKS's that were used in this war. From all the years of collecting (30+ years) SKS's I have not seen one North Vietnamese SKS (Star 1) in what I call excellent condition. I am sure there has to be at least a few out there some where, but most of the North Vietnamese SKS's that I have seen have been rode hard and put away wet. These rifles have seen so much combat that I am surprised that you can even find one in all matching condition and not a rust bucket. I now that the M21 seem to show up a little bit better condition, but usually they aren't to far behind the North vietnamese SKS's in condition. I look forward to your reply, as my home e-mail is: [email protected]
    I look forward to your reply.
    Tex , Bob Hanes

  14. #14
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    Default great explaination by Tex (Bob Hanes)

    the above fine statement by Bob Hanes is great and pretty much on target. We both have collected and examined allot of SKS carbines over the years. I myself feel that the North Vietnamese sks carbines were completely made by the Chinese at Factory triangle 26. Although the wood may be different that could have been a special run to throw off the Identification of the supplier. The U.S. Government has writte that they believe that the North Vietnamese guns were made by North Korea. I think that is not supported by examining the North Korean guns I have handled. The make up of the North Vietnamese guns is so close to the Chinese factory triangle 26(also note Russian blade bayonet and rear sight leaf also supplied by Russia to Factory triangle 26 ) that its in conceivable that any one else could have produced them. The following is my list of known serial numbers for the North Vietnamese guns.

    620114-620030-620046
    630409-630278-630840-630685
    643212-643369-641568-642933-641383-641832-641491-641188-645212-642366
    655755-653800-655805-654358-655468-655605-655273

    I think in my own mind that the first 2 numbers are the year of production. This is supported in the fact that these guns only showed up during the earliest years of the war. Alos a fact the Russian, East German, North Korean, and Romanian, guns also showed up at this time frame. (captured guns starting with the main build up of troops in 65) had these guns show up in battles as captured weapons. Rare was any found in excellent or as new condition. The early years of the war (actually started with military assistance in 59) more openly by 61 these guns were at that time being filtered into the country and given to local forces which carried them and stashed them when not in use. They showed the tough climate and treatment by the local forces who were not trained troops and knew little of maintenance. Many of the early captured guns were miss matched because little or no training was given in regard to assembly by serial number. many guns were cleaned all together and parts got mixed around. As to value any Military SKS that is rare to find in any condition will have a high value on it. I sold a Fair example of the North Vietnamese gun some years ago with papers for 800.00 It was the only papered example i had but my other North Vietnamese was in good condition so I saved it for my collection and used the money to by another rare gun a boxed new Mitchell Yugo sks. A collector can just about name his price for a East German sks which is the rarest Then the North Vietnamese and North Koreans are next . Russian 49 Tula with original features and spike bayonet and so on. You can thank Tuco and the resat of the Moderators and collectors here for this place to write about and share this information. Just Like Bob I have to say these are my own conclusions and you can use this to make your own conclusions but always leave an open mind for a little at least always comes from all you learn here to make the picture more understandable.

  15. #15
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    I disagree with Howie and Tex on the origin of NVA rifles.

    It is my opinion that the Vietnamese SKS was produced by the Vietnamese.

    The wood stock is an obvious supporter of my theory, as the hassle of producing a strange stock to "confuse" the US is ridiculous.

    There is no reason to go through the work of duping the US into thinking the NVA was producing rifles. All it would do is create incentive for the US to destroy arms production capacity. We knew that every Com Block nation was supplying arms to the NVA, so creating a home grown rifle "image" would have been a wasted effort.

    Moving on, both of my NVAs (One sold in the above auction BTW) had side mounted stock slings, a practice done away with well before 1962 by the Chinese.

    Stock stamping font and location was far diffrent than anything Chinese.

    Finish on my pristine NVA is far better than any of my Chinese rifles have been. Lightening cutout on the bolt has almost no machine marks, and the even blue on the sides of the receiver is very smooth.

    Barrels on both of my units (1964) are screwed in place.

    Blade Bayonet blood groove is noticeably narrower than all of my Russian and Sino Soviet blood grooves.

    Gas tube and gas piston are ep'd to match the rifle. Not something usually done on Chinese rifles.

    Rear sight does have the upside down U which would indicate Russian, However: and here is the kicker, the 4 on all NVA rifles I have seen is a closed top "4" not an open unit like on every Russian and Sino rear sight.

    Safety lever is serrated at an angle, this is not like my Chinese rifles which are straight serrated, or smooth depending on factory.

    Now my knowledge of Chinese rifles is not very good, as I have owned only 5 ex military, and about 10 or so Commercial units. (IE Paratrooper, Cowboy Companions, Bricklee, Farmer's friends and Hunters etc). My personal experience with NVA rifles puts me in a small group that has owned two of them. (not totally exclusive, but small).

    The comment that these only started showing up in the early war and most likely stopped being produced in 1965 bolsters my point, We were bombing manufacturing facilities in Vietnam, not China. If these rifles were being built in China, they would be dated well into the 1970s. If they were being built in Vietnam, and we hit the factory in 1965, then the manufacturing would have stopped, like it did. INTERNET QUOTE "Operation Rolling Thunder begins March 2, 1965,as over 100 American fighter-bombers attack targets in North Vietnam. Scheduled to last eight weeks, Rolling Thunder will instead go on for three years." END QUOTE. This is the last yer of production for the NVA type 1....Coincidence? I think not. Rolling thunder did not target factory 26 or North Korea, so they were probably not making the NVA type1 to begin with.

    I have seen and am looking for a post where the factory suspected of producing NVA type 1 rifles was bombed. When I find it, I will add it here.


    As to the OP question of price, It is an odd market.

    The current auction for the NK, is in nice condition for a type 63 which has been reworked to add the grenade cuttoff and sight. I have one in better condition, but the rifle offered could be a decent deal depending on the reserve price. No paperwork detracts from the value. As for years of production for the type 63, I do not know. It was introduced in 1963, but I cannot figure out the dates of manufacture past that.

    My Gunbroker NVA sold for $1500 with a non matching bolt, and very little original finish. The sale right after went for a little more, with a non matching sanded and reshaped stock. I'd put a great condition NVA at $2000 without papers.

    A great condition NK type 63 without papers at about the same price.

    What baffles me is that the NVA and NK are so very rare, the prices seem downright cheap. Lets figure high that there are 50 type 63 rifles, and 100 NVA type 1s in the country, I would expect the prices to be double what they are. If a decent "correct" M1Carbine can bring a couple grand, and an M1 Garand IHC gap rifle can bring $4000, why don't uber rare SKS rifles bring more? Add to that that any type 1 or NK type 63 had to be a Vietnam bringback battlefield pickup, then it stands to reason that they are terrific values at $1500-$2000.

    All IMHO.
    Last edited by Prince50; 08-07-2009 at 04:28 PM.

  16. #16
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    Thumbs up North Vietnamese SKS (Star 1) question

    Dear Prince 50,
    I have a few questions for you about your North Vietnamese, as I do not own one of these SKS's anymore. I sold mine a number of years back when I got injured on the job and had to take care of doctor bills. I do own a mint North Korean Type 63 SKS that I purchased about three years ago for $2,700, but it is in MINT condition and would almost impossible to upgrade. I have a good friend that tells me that the North Vietnamese SKS's were manufactured by the North Koreans as a clandestian contract, by his sources in the intelligence agencies. I have a question about that, as they would have been manufactured after 1963 and I would like to see some of the North Vietnamese SKS's with capture papers to check the date they were captured, as they would all would have been captured after 1963. The only weapon that I know of that was ever manufactured by the North Vietnamese was the K-50 submachinegun, which is a cross between a simplified PPSH and a M3 Greasegun type stock. These weapons were mainly stampings except for the bolt and the barrels which would have been easly to manufacture in a common machine shop. Even today the North Vietnamese purchase there smallarms from other Asian and Eastern European countries. I donot know of any smallarms that are produced in current Vietnam. Can you tell me if the sreial numbers on your North Vietnamese appear on the stock ?
    Tex

  17. #17
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    Tex,

    Congratulations on your pristine NK. My NK has been dipped in black paint to protect or refurbish it I guess, and this covers the awful machining to a point. The bolt lightening cut was cut very fast and not worked on after it was done. It has been drilled for the rear greanade sight and the gas shutoff is present at the front. My current NVA "type 1" would be hard to upgrade, and is a great refrence for comparing point of origin.

    Both the NVA I own now, and the one I just sold on Gunbroker had their matching SNs on the stock. They are thin tall numbers just below the sling attachment point, and are a font I've never seen used with North Korean Type 63 rifles or any other SKS.

    As to the North Koreans manufacturing the NVA type 1, I am very skeptical.
    1. The NK type 63 as you know is a Laminated stock rifle.
    2. The metal work on the NK is not nearly up to par with the type 1 NVA.
    3. Again, the rear leaf "4" is open on the NK just as it is with Russian and Chinese, but closed on the NVA type 1.
    4. There is of course the issue of the rear sight letter which is a flat topped reverse "J".
    5. The blood groove on the NK is wider than the NVA type 1.
    6. US bombing runs in Vietnam in 1965 would not have stopped production of NK produced rifles.
    7. The buttplate on a NK type 63 is much thicker than on a NVA type 1.
    8. The North Koreans adopted the SKS in 1963, and the NVA type 1 rifles are dated '62 for at least 114 units. (Based on Howie's great info).

    If all this was done to "confuse" the US, then I think too much credit has been given to the enemy.

    My final and best point, is that "faking" NVA arms production would simply provide incentive for additional US bombing runs into North Vietnam. If anything the NVA would want to put Chinese and North Korean markings on thier SKS rifles to confuse the US, not the other way around.

    None of the countries giving arms aid to the NVA were shy about that fact, and no "creative" markings were placed on the more "hated" AK-47 at the time.

    Considering these points and laying rifles side by side, isn't it at all possible that the NVA type1 is just that, a North Vietnamese manufacutred rifle?

    As to the assumption that there are 30,000 NVA type 1 rifles, I think that too is a mistake.

    Using Howie's numbers I see

    The highest number of rifles using known data to be
    1962.....114 rifles: low output probably due to late start time in 1962
    1963.....840 rifles: 3.2 rifles per day based on 260 day work year. (not so good)
    1964.....5212 rifles: 20 rifles per day as the NVA ramps up for another ground war after mid year US passage of the Southeast Asia Resolution.
    1965..... 5755 rifles: 22 rifles a day based on a full year but probably many more until the day a US airman Bombadier ruined the place.

    This info makes better sense. Do not take the numbers in sequence. Let's assume there are realtivly representative numbers here in the US from Howie's SN data, and we can see a number closer to 12,000 NVA type 1 rifles.

    A small fatory in North Vietnam starting production late in 1962 ramping up to good production in 1965 and being obliterated by operation rolling thunder in late 1965 seems just about right.

    Had factory 26 been making these SKS rifles, then the first two years would have been on par with '64 and '65. We all know by 1962, the Chinese knew full well how to efficiently produce the SKS in great numbers.

    Darin
    Last edited by Prince50; 08-07-2009 at 05:10 PM.

  18. #18
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    Tex,

    Got a question for you. If the Type 63 was converted by the NVA to have a gas cuttoff and a greanade sight, then why only do it to NK type 63 rifles?

    If the NVA were the ones converting rifles, they would have just converted whatever rifles they had don't you think? Have you seen any other Vietnam bringback rifles with a gas cuttoff and grenade sight, or just type 63 rifles?

    My guess is that the gas cuttoff was done in North Korea, and then shipped in as an added feature. Since you have one, you can tell the same conversion could be applied to any SKS.

    Darin

  19. #19
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    Thumbs up North Vietnamese SKS (Star 1)

    Dear Darin:
    I appreciate your insight on this topic of interesting SKS, as I am always looking for new information on these interesting rifles to collect for my files. The question that you bring up about the clandestian markings on these rifles (if they were or not) clandestian. We know that the Chinese manufactured a series of clandestian small-arms and weapons up to artillery in the M Series (M21) for some time for the world market. The M21's that the Noth vietnamese received all fell in the 800,000 to 900,000 serial range. This could very well had been the second contract by the Chinese for the NVA with the Star1 SKS's series being the first. We know that the early Sino-Soviet SKS's had a different lettering and numbering used on the serial numbers on the metal and the wood stocks. I have not exman any of the Chinese SKS's that were manufactured in the 2,000,000 series to 3.,000,000 series Arsenal /26\ SKS's to see what changes were being made. There seems to be a break in production od SKS manufacture at Arsenal /26\ from 4,000,000 to 6,000,000 and then pickup at 7,000,000 series serial number and finished with 9,000,000 series which was the last Chinese SKS's /26\ to have the blade bayonet. The 10,000,000 Series Chinese SKS's /26\ arsenal were the first to have spike bayonets and still have the lighting cut on the bolt but at 11,000,000 the lighting cut was removed to speed up manufacture of these weapons. I think that the 14,000,000 series Chinese SKS's /26\ arsenal was the last Chinese SKS's to get into Vietnam. The only Chinese SKS's used in the Vietnam War were manufacture at Arsenal /26\ including the m21's.
    I know that there is a serial number break between 4,000,000 and 6,000,000 at Arsenal/26\, but what happened to these SKS's and were they the Star1's of the Vietnam NVA ? This is what I love about collecting, the hunt is so much more interesting then the capture.
    I would love to see some pictures of your NVA SKS (Star1) and I could send you some of my N.Korean.
    The North Korean was made in a solid stock with no gas cut-off, but I only know of a few.
    I only have seen two in all my years of collecting and would really like to set down and study it. My e-mail address is list a few threads back, so you can use it to send pictures if you would.
    I always look forward to discussing the SKS.
    Bob Hanes "Tex" in Indiana

  20. #20
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    Thumbs up North Korean Type 63 with G/L Gas cut-off

    Darin:
    I think that the North Koreans manufactured the Type 63 with the G/L and not modified by the NVA. If you look at the laminated stock on the North Korean Type 63's you will see where there is two rods added for strength for heavy recoil at the front and rear of the stock. They are at the front of the stock and at the back of the stock near the wrist, and were manufactured before the finish was put on the stock. The only other weapon that was equipped to fire R/G were the laminated stocked M44 Carbines with the extra recoil lug in the wrist of the stock. I have three of these carbines in my collection that were all bring backs from Vietnam. The launcher that were used on these two rifles were direct copies of the US. M7 G/lL for the M1 Carbine. It is even possible that some of these were US manufactured that was modified to be used on these two weapons, but they also manufactured a copy as well. I have three launchers and two sights (the sight was the first thing they thru away) and they all have different markings. One has Chinese markings, one has Russian (?) and the last has nothing. The R/G that was fired from these launchers was the Chinese Type 62 Rifle Grenade and was a copy of the US. A/T rifle grenade except that the Chinese model had dimples on the nose of the grenade to let hit more evenly on the surface of the armor.
    I have one of these rifle grenades in my collection if you ever need a picture. My North Korean has the gas cut-off but was never drill and taped for the launcher. The gun had to come out of a arms catch because it shows no use. I look forward to your reply.
    Bob

  21. #21
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    Bob,

    I will send you some pictures of both my NK and My NVA, but they can also both be seen over on SKS BOARDS.com

    I'll include the East German too, if you are collecting info on it.

    We can only agree to disagree about the origin of the NVA. The Type 1 markings are in no way Clandestine, in fact they are very non clandestine. they clearly show factory marking for Type 1 NVA and even clearly show year of manufacture.

    I agree the Russians and the Chinese made confusing SKS rifles to cover their origin, but there was no need to use them in Vietnam where their support was blatant.

    The M21 was an attempt to shroud the origin of that rifle, but not a very good one. M21 rifles are all over the place with Blade bayos, spike, poly handguards, side mount slings, bottom mount slings, deep struck numbers, some rolled looking numbers ect. Obvious that they were produced in large numbers by a country that produced a large number of SKS rifles. I doubt strongly that anyone who ever looked at a M21 thought " I wonder who made that SKS?" Even without a US importer stamp that said "made in China".

    It is just an opinion, but mine is still that the NVA type 1 was manufactured at a factory in Vietnam that was most likely destroyed in 1965.

    I still very much respect your opinion, and appreciate the debate. SKS collecting had been getting almost boring lately. Thanks for the lively discussion.

    Expect pictures as soon as I can.



    Darin

  22. #22
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    Thumbs up North Vietnamese (Star 1) SKS

    Dear Darin:
    I look forward to getting your pictures, as I also post on the SKS Board under the name "Type 63 SKS". I think from now on I will just use my regular name on these different boards as I have to write the stupid things down to remenber what name do I use on this info board.
    I don't think that the North Vietnamese is a clandestian version, as it has its on markings for what it is. The question is who made it, North Vietnam, China or North Korea. Now the M21 is defently a clandestian weapon, and at the time of manufacture we really didn't know who built it until later in the war. The M21's that show up in Vietnam were a serial range theat fell in the 800,000 to 900,000 serial number range of blade SKS's. The later (much later) spike SKS's that we saw arrive on the commerical market in the late 1980's with the pebble grain plastic handguards were probably left over from the CIA contract that we purchased for the Afghans from China. We also saw the last Arsenal/26\ SKS's that were manufactured for the PRC in the 23,000,000 and 24,000,000 series serial number range on the surplus market at the same time as the late M21's. The M21's in Vietnam were always a clandestian manufactured weapon as in all the "M" Series of weapons that was captured in Vietnam. The M20 (Type 54 pistol) and the M22 (AK-47 milled receiver) and right on down the list of Chinese manufactured (Soviet design) weapons. I don't feel that it took us to long to figure out who was making these weapons from the manufacturing and the type of details on these weapons.
    From the serial numbers that Howie and I have collected over the years (Howie has done most of the work). The North Vietnamese Star1 SKS's probably didn't exceed 30,000 SKS's from the serial range and the M21's less then 100,000 from the same information, which when you get right down to it this is not alot of these two versions of SKS's that were manufactured and used in Vietnam. Again this all is conjecture from the information that we have put together over the years. I hope you have enjoyed this sparing of information on this great rifle as much as I have, and I hope we can continue as time goes by.
    Your SKS collector Friend,
    Bob Hanes

  23. #23
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    Thumbs up North Vietnamese (Star 1) SKS

    Darin:
    Just a thought for you, what about Yugoslavia, as they were manufacturing a Russian type design SKS as early as 1959, it is possible that they could have made these SKS's. The Yugoslavians did manufacture contracts for many foreign contries before Vietnam and after as well. There is some questions on the number Model 1959 Yugo SKS's that were manufactured and they were certainly not found in quantity as the later model M59/66's on the surplus market. I had a chance to look at alot of M59's down in Florida at Samco about six years ago, and there were alot of "C' Prefix serial numbers but no "A"'s and very few "B" prefix serial numbers. Thats what I like more questions then anwers.
    Bob

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    Default

    Ok guys,I've never touched anything but Russian,Chinese,and Yugos myself. But I'm having a bit of trouble believing that NV could build their own SKS that was so well built. To my way of thinking if they are so good looking,in fit and finish they must have came from Europe. Somewhere that had the oldworld type craftmanship,and no air raids to worry about.

  25. #25
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    my vote goes with Prince's view. i sure am no sks expert, but best i can tell the NV and the Korean sks are 2 different animals, surely not made in the same factory with intentions of deceit in one or the others production. the very good condition Korean sks that was on auction arms about a week ago was in a russian looking stock, had the gas cutoff, and was said by the vet that brought it back, it had a strange/interesting enough scope on it that the army kept the scope for study, only giving the rifle clearance to come back. i believe the description and story.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

  26. #26
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    Don't rule out the possibility that you' both could be correct on some points. China and North Korea could've sent Vietnam the parts and Vietnam assembled the rifles themselves as their own variant. Just like the situation with the Iraqi Tabuk (AK) rifle.

  27. #27

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    Great info guys!

    Keep it going.

  28. #28
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    Default sorry but if you look at the early Factory triangle 26

    If you examine any of the early production Factory triangle 26 carbines you will note the workmanship is on par with anything the Russians turned out. In 56 the Russians provided the Chinese with machinery, technical help, and tons of parts to manufacture the Type 56 SKS carbine.

    The lightning cut bolts, blade bayonets, rear sight leafs, and many other parts were used till exhausted Keep in mind this was at Factory triangle 26 only!!!!!!! all other production was done the way the Chinese wanted the Carbine to look. They just used up what was supplied as aid before the change over to their design.

    The only info I have seen about North Vietnamese production was for sub machine guns which were stamped not milled (if pakistan can build them in a shop with hand tools and no electricity this tells you the north Vietnamese could as well.) they also built some artillery but may have gotten aid in the parts and just assembled them. as to subversive clandestine manufacture the Chinese are among the best . Ammunition was made (.30 carbine with LC head stamp and 7.62x51MM Nato with British RL head stamps and shipped to a customer I think in Africa) The Chinese are also using made up Factory codes to throw off actual production I have well over 100 factory codes on my list and with Chinese 7.62x39 head stamps of 35 different factory codes. The Chinese will do lotts of things to make things look as if they had nothing to do with it

    The years I was in Vietnam in the First Cav and in the Central Highlands we captured all manner of guns and had a large collection in the Division. My old platoon leader from back in the 11th Air Assault was in charge of captured weapons and would have me up knowing i was interested in them, when i was back in base camp. We had Russian, East German, North Korean, guns there at that time I do not remember any star 1 guns being there when I looked through them but i could have missed them. We had two east german sks carbines that were on a display board at that time. From 66 on we started to capture Chinese sks with spike bayonets and lots of them in the area of the ho Chi MInh trail where I sometimes patrolled. These were factory triangle 26 guns for the most part. so by that time the Russian parts were gone and the flow of aid from Chine was in full swing.

    This subject is one that when Tex and I post here we have both been studying this subject for a long time. IT does not mean we are experts or even on the right track so its good when others want to put in their ideas and see where they fall into the picture. Many things all contribute to the overall picture on how these things got made and how they got here. Its good to have this forum and the people we have here not all of us are bubbas some of us are serious collectors sharing what info we have with other like people Maybe we should post a series of photos here on these two weapons for more to see.










    Quote Originally Posted by Woodbeef View Post
    Ok guys,I've never touched anything but Russian,Chinese,and Yugos myself. But I'm having a bit of trouble believing that NV could build their own SKS that was so well built. To my way of thinking if they are so good looking,in fit and finish they must have came from Europe. Somewhere that had the oldworld type craftmanship,and no air raids to worry about.

  29. #29
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    Default more photos for study

    pay attention to details like serial number fonts, proof marks, how numbers were applied, etc

    posted Chinese trigger group here it did come on one of the NVA guns but is not intended for a reference photo
    Last edited by howiebearse; 08-08-2009 at 10:33 AM.

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    The fact the rifles have Russian-style rear sights screams to me at least some of them were probably assembled in-country with foreign parts and given a domestic marking.

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    Rayman,

    Please note the rear sights are not Russian. They have Russian style markings, but do not match any known Russian or Sino I've ever seen.

    The 8's and 4's are not right. It's just as possible that someone copied the plans to the N'th degree, and left the upside down U on the stamped rear sight, not knowing any better.

    The Blade Bayonets and rear sights are of Russian design, but not Russian at all, unless someone can show me different.

    Agreed the machined receivers could have been produced and shipped, but not probable, as an SKS is not that hard to make. Possibly more expensive and slower than stamping, but not really that hard.

    Production information was available for any country who opposed the USA, tool paths, sizes, blueprints ect... With a standard WWII Bridgeport, and a good lathe you could easily be producing 20 SKS rifles a day, once you got good at it.

    The real kicker would be to compare the overall quality of a 1962 type 1 with a 1965 type 1. I am willing to offer my rifle for this observation, as it is nearly perfect and easy to compare.

    As to the Yugoslavians manufacturing the type1, the lack of chrome bore and bayonet, and lack of purple hue in the finished product would convince me otherwise. I doubt they even provided receivers, as their metalurgy almost always blues with a plum color.

    Yugo type 59 rifles are one of my favorite for fit and finish though. I have another inbound right now which I am excited to get.

    I agree the debate here is very healthy for collecting, and SKS value overall.

    Darin
    Last edited by Prince50; 08-10-2009 at 06:43 PM.

  32. #32
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    Just off of AK's, Russian rear sights can also vary in type of style of numbering. Different factories and eras can contribute to this. Even a "4" made by the Tula factory looks different than a "4" made by the Izhmash factory. Not all the numbering will be exactly the same. Naturally, this is a comparison of AK rear sights with a even a 10-15 year time span but I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket regarding the numbering theory.

  33. #33
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    Default here is 2 from my collection of factory 26

    here is 2 different serial number ranges 7 million and 9 million that show that Russian leafs vary from manufacturer If you study top cover markings you will find all kinds of differant arrows used in the stars on Tula top covers and different fonts on the dates one may look not closed but the white paint is worn off





    Quote Originally Posted by Prince50 View Post
    Rayman,

    Please note the rear sights are not Russian. They have Russian style markings, but do not match any known Russian or Sino I've ever seen.

    The 8's and 4's are not right. It's just as possible that someone copied the plans to the N'th degree, and left the upside down U on the stamped rear sight, not knowing any better.

    The Blade Bayonets and rear sights are of Russian design, but not Russian at all, unless someone can show me different.

    Agreed the machined receivers could have been produced and shipped, but not probable, as an SKS is not that hard to make. Possibly more expensive and slower than stamping, but not really that hard.

    Production information was available for any country who opposed the USA, tool paths, sizes, blueprints ect... With a standard WWII you could easily be producing 20 SKS rifles a day, once you got good at it.

    The real kicker would be to compare the overall quality of a 1962 type 1 with a 1965 type 1. I am willing to offer my rifle for this observation, as it is nearly perfect and easy to compare.

    As to the Yugoslavians manufacturing the type1, the lack of chrome bore and bayonet, and lack of purple hue in the finished product would convince me otherwise. I doubt they even provided receivers, as their metalurgy almost always blues with a plum color.

    Yugo type 59 rifles are one of my favorite for fit and finish though. I have another inbound right now which I am excited to get.

    I agree the debate here is very healthy for collecting, and SKS value overall.

    Darin

  34. #34
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    Default I could take some pics of the various blade bayonets

    and probably find differences there as well. The Russians Like the Chinese made stuff in plants all over the country then shipped these parts for assembly. Something did show up in one of my ak books where the North Vietnamese were making up RPK guns from various standard receivers. I myself doubt that the country had the factory to produce sks carbines and with a ready supply from willing sources Its not very smart to compete.

  35. #35
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    I do see your closed "4" Russian, and none of mine have the closed "4" so it is possible some parts came from Russia, I still highly doubt it looking at mine, but it is possible.

    Makes no explaination at all for the very different stock found on the NVA Type 1, when the Russians would have clearly been very capable of building superior,inexpensive, laminated stocks, and shipping them worldwide. Russia was producing laminated SKS stocks in the mid 1950s. NVA type 1 production started in 1962.

    Still does not explain why production stopped the same time we started bombing the snot out of the NVA.

    None of it adds up except local indigenous manufacture with the possibility of imported sub assemblies or parts.

    It would be interesting to note if a type 1 has ever been seen in another part of the world where China and Russia have "donated" arms.

    Darin
    Last edited by Prince50; 08-08-2009 at 09:31 PM.

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