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Thread: Bohica

  1. #1
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    Default Bohica

    http://thefundamentalview.blogspot.c...efault_03.html

    There are over 1 Quadrillion Dollars worth of derivatives in the world today.. it was these very same derivatives under different names that brought down Enron.. they changed the names from VDS's to CDO's and CDS's and they brought down Leahman and Bear Sterns, forced massive bailouts of too big to fail financial organizations like Citi and B of A and sparked trillions in stimulus to keep credit flowing...

    Now comes the next wave.. I'm not saying that this particular threat is the exact one.. but it sure is a canidate... China can take down JP Morgan for the same dirty dealing that backfired on Enron and Bear Stearns, fannie mae and freddy mac... Oh and lets not forget AIG

    One Quadrillion , a thousand trillion, a tisket a tasket, we have a very full basket... we haven't cleared the first 100 Trillion in derivitives yet.. and here is another bomb tick tick tick

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    Here's another interesting piece out of China. I'm really surprised it hasn't gotten more attention - even some gold sites haven't picked up on it. I'm no great conspiracy buff but my eyebrows perk up a bit when I hear that the chinese want all their gold in physical form in their possesion.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hon...-03?link=kiosk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrov View Post
    Here's another interesting piece out of China. I'm really surprised it hasn't gotten more attention - even some gold sites haven't picked up on it. I'm no great conspiracy buff but my eyebrows perk up a bit when I hear that the chinese want all their gold in physical form in their possesion.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/hon...-03?link=kiosk
    The Chineses have increased their gold holdings from 400 tons to over a thousand tons and have all but stop exports on China mined gold.. now the largest gold producer in the world... they have also started marketing silver to the masses, The Chinese are calculated to have about 36 Billion in saving that the Goverment is trying to get them to invest. The Chinese have a ling History with silver.. Part of that History involves the fact that the Chinese invented paper money had a bad experience with inflation and fiat money going worthless , brought down several Emperors, and were the first to outlaw paper money some 500 years after they invented it.. Paper money didn't really come back in China until the early 20th Centiry. The US in an effort to capture more trade with China in the 19th Century minted a special silver dollar, called a "Trade Dollar" that had a higher ammount of silver than the standard US silver dollat and was used almost exclusively in the Chiina Trade as a way to take market share fom other European Colonial Powers.
    China started running TV commericals 2 days ago advertising the Goverment Silver Ingots and the advantages they have for the average Chinese Family.

    Further they are cutting off or restricting the rare earth metals supply essential for all these fancy Green Hybrid cars and wind turbnes.. China mines 97% of all the rare earth metals in the world and has the only working refining capacity for rare eath metals in the world. The are shut down mines in California and Canada.. enviromental concerns you know, as well as China running them out of business by selling rare earths cheaper.

    China has 2 Trillion in foreign reserves and has announced they would like to be about 3-5% into gold .. thats about $100 Billion or about 3000 tons .. the US is said to hold about 8000 tons .. but there has been some suspicoius boosting of our export numbers the last year or so by the export of "Gold Commerical products" an ill defined catergory of gold alloy exported ( or imported) for industrial use.. some fear the alloy is 22 Kt coin gold melted down and sold behind locked doors to help balance the trade deficit and keep China buying our Treasuries.. but that is not confirmed nor the majority suspicion.. just some odd notes and categories in offical goverment reports.

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    It seems they're planning for something.
    An economic war, perhaps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbekannt View Post
    It seems they're planning for something.
    An economic war, perhaps?

    As far as I know we have been in an economic war with China , or they with us , for the last 5 years.. but now they have been hurt by our policy of unrestricted money printing and unbleliveable large Goverment Deficits.. so they are hitting back.. they are trapped in a dollar denominated world and we are ruining the value of the dollar.. They are looking for ways out and trying to give us a little of our own medicine back.... it's the frog and the scorpion crossing the Jordan River all over again.

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    But is it a good idea to do this to someone who owes you money?
    If they damage, if not destroy our economy, how do they expect to get repaid?
    Or do they know we are going to eventually default?
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    Quote Originally Posted by unbekannt View Post
    But is it a good idea to do this to someone who owes you money?
    If they damage, if not destroy our economy, how do they expect to get repaid?
    Or do they know we are going to eventually default?
    Right now , and for about the last year, China has been converting it's 2 Trillion in reserves into stockpiles of commodities, and have been buying Businesses, mines, farms, factories, and companies arround the world in what has been called 2000 purchases of 1 Billion dollar assets. They have opened up direct currency swaps with Russia amd countries in Africa, South America, and the Middle East , and have bought a significant number of European Oil Companies...
    The Chinese Foreign Reserves are being converted in to commodities and real properties and mining rights at an amazing and accelerating pace.. they unload more dollar denominated paper instruments than they buy at a rate of 2 to 1 .. This week they bought 300 Billion in IMF special drawing rights ( an artifical currency composed of the dollar, the euro, the yen , and one other ( I forget, sorry )and backed by Gold in the IMF vaults.

    And a US defaut on tresuries is one way for us to get out from under this massive debt , the other is inflating the dollar into worthlessness.. the other is to drastically cut spending and drastically raise taxes.. The US Goverment as of right now is spending $17,000 per family in the US on services and bennies, and borrowing $13,000 for a total of about $30,000 per family.. said family has an average income of $47,000.
    Be clear on this one point.. we have done the damage to ourselves.. all the Chinese are doing is not proping us up to the extent we need to continue as we have been doing.. China is more about China not getting dragged down with us, than trying to hurt us..it's just that we hurt ourselves unless the rest the world finances our debt.
    You see the deficit really isn't pushed off on our grandhildren and children we borrow in the here and now .. the right now... the $500 Million a day debt service in intere4st payments we have run up ar paid in the hear and now as well ... everyday... $500 Million in interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    The US Goverment as of right now is spending $17,000 per family in the US on services and bennies, and borrowing $13,000 for a total of about $30,000 per family.. said family has an average income of $47,000.
    Generally interesting post, AmmoSgt, but I for one would like to see impeccable source material for this claim before I believe it.
    I am not a gun collector, but a few fine guns have come to me. Not fine because they are fancy or rare or of high monetary value, but fine because of the links they forge to my past.

    The first gun I fired: Model 1898 Krag 30-40
    The first gun I bought: Remington 521-T
    The first gun I inherited: Arisaka T99
    The first gun I ever wanted: 1949 Winchester Model 94

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3040_Krag View Post
    Generally interesting post, AmmoSgt, but I for one would like to see impeccable source material for this claim before I believe it.

    well here is some articles... impecable... hey, thats your call,

    I read a quote the other day.. something along the lines of

    "we rationaize our lives by only finding arguements that lets us continue believeing whatever we already believe" and I forgot who said it...

    http://news.goldseek.com/LewRockwell/1251982882.php

    http://news.goldseek.com/RichardDaughty/1251871320.php

    everything else is my own synthesis or from some other article I forgot to look up.

    I believe you can calculate the above dollar amounts by using the number of 100 million US families an the current size of the budget and the deficits.

    I don't really expect to many folks to actually prepare as if this is an actual threat to the world as we know it.. the vast majority of public figures see nothing but greenshoots and recovery... and thats cool by me... believe my posts at your own risk.
    Last edited by AmmoSgt; 09-03-2009 at 10:06 PM.

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    Ammo Sgt's figures will eventually be correct when the Stimulus money is all actually spent which will be a couple of years. There will be no recovery subsequently. After her own provided figures she will "accuse" that to mention that it is this Administration's doing is "political," as though that means something. Mr. Ed Obama has spent more than ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS COMBINED. When the Communist Chinese are warning him that he is spending too much and assuming too much control of the economy, ya gotta laugh, sickly. Scared?

    You should be. Wanna survive? Fight to repeal the Stimulus before its too late and impeach this "Presidente." Wanna be prepared? Do it in front of all the school kids on opening day! Friggin' Helen Kellers...

    Truth & Vigilance

    Alden

    PS: The comparison of Enron's frauds to anything else mentioned here (OTHER than the Administration's activities) is about as misguided, or intentionally misleading, as it gets.

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    Two articles, contemporary to the events one from Jan 2002 on Enron

    http://www.321gold.com/editorials/mo...rty013002.html

    and one 7 years later Jan 2009

    http://www.321gold.com/editorials/mo...rty012609.html

    Both before the current administration concerning business practices , detailing the deivatives side of this pending disaster.

    Folks have seen this coming, tried to tell folks, pointed out warning signs and actual warning events that demostrated precisely what would continue to happen on an ever increasing scale.
    Instead of listening to sound economics and common sense.. all folks did was blame the other party and everybody kept doing exactly what they were doing... making it politial doesn't accomplish anything.. but.. if it's working for you and it's all you got.. then play that one string violin.
    Last edited by AmmoSgt; 09-03-2009 at 10:36 PM.

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    Both of your links are the same.
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    Thanks fixed

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    A Financial NWO is indeed coming.....a one world monetary policy for all.....and the Chinese are staged to dominate this policy.....wonder what the world will look like when that happens??.....good Thread Ammo....

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    well here is some articles... impecable... hey, thats your call,

    I read a quote the other day.. something along the lines of

    "we rationaize our lives by only finding arguements that lets us continue believeing whatever we already believe" and I forgot who said it...

    http://news.goldseek.com/LewRockwell/1251982882.php

    http://news.goldseek.com/RichardDaughty/1251871320.php

    everything else is my own synthesis or from some other article I forgot to look up.

    I believe you can calculate the above dollar amounts by using the number of 100 million US families an the current size of the budget and the deficits.

    I don't really expect to many folks to actually prepare as if this is an actual threat to the world as we know it.. the vast majority of public figures see nothing but greenshoots and recovery... and thats cool by me... believe my posts at your own risk.
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and proof of any kind is sorely lacking at goldseek. IMO, they are just cooking the books to hype whatever it is that they are selling.

    Here is just one example of how they are cooking the books: they take the entire federal income tax burden and dividing it into the number of households...as if households are the only source of federal income taxes...while ignoring the 25-million businesses that also pay income taxes.

    The average household is NOT paying $17-thousand in taxes per year. In fact, according to The Tax Foundation personal (household) income taxes total $7000 per year. The other $10-thousand come from businesses and other tax sources.

    Yes, we are at historical highs in tax burden and debt. And yes, the Chinese are looking to be the dominant world economy within 10-15 years. But comparing that tax and debt bill to household income is about as useful as comparing it to, say, churches or school buses. Yes, you can get a number out of it, but the number doesn't tell us much.

    Here is a much more informative comparison...public debt as a percentage of GDP. Two things should jump out at you. First, our current debt picture is high only compared to the past 30 years. And second, that Republican Presidents have been the ones who piled on debt.



    I didn't vote for Mr Obama, but blaming our current debt and tax situation on him is just plain ignorant. Only time will tell if he will create real growth like most Democratic Presidents of the past century, or whether he will be a one-term President that the American people lose confidence in.
    I am not a gun collector, but a few fine guns have come to me. Not fine because they are fancy or rare or of high monetary value, but fine because of the links they forge to my past.

    The first gun I fired: Model 1898 Krag 30-40
    The first gun I bought: Remington 521-T
    The first gun I inherited: Arisaka T99
    The first gun I ever wanted: 1949 Winchester Model 94

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    ^^^^^^^^
    Where is your graph from? Link, please.

    What about the PROJECTED debt over 10 years from the CBO?
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    As it says in the lower right hand corner ... zfacts.com.
    I am not a gun collector, but a few fine guns have come to me. Not fine because they are fancy or rare or of high monetary value, but fine because of the links they forge to my past.

    The first gun I fired: Model 1898 Krag 30-40
    The first gun I bought: Remington 521-T
    The first gun I inherited: Arisaka T99
    The first gun I ever wanted: 1949 Winchester Model 94

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    Sorry, I just snapped.
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    No problem. Just google on "us debt to gdp" for tons of hits and discussion.
    I am not a gun collector, but a few fine guns have come to me. Not fine because they are fancy or rare or of high monetary value, but fine because of the links they forge to my past.

    The first gun I fired: Model 1898 Krag 30-40
    The first gun I bought: Remington 521-T
    The first gun I inherited: Arisaka T99
    The first gun I ever wanted: 1949 Winchester Model 94

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    It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if you've been paying attention. Time to read up on Germany after WW-1 and ferfal's piece on Argentina after their economic collapse (that one is linked in the survival library thread).

    China already owns us and without ever firing a shot. They have stated emphatically that they will not be outbid in the coming race for oil and they are hedging their bets that the owners of the oil will be more willing to accept Chinese Gold than an American IOU. Here's a TEOTWAWKI scenario for you, The United States will resort to piracy, hijacking super tankers headed for China, and China will retaliate. We surely will find out then if our president really is the beast foretold, as some here seem to think.

    In the meantime, you might enjoy this musical interlude, on me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB1cN...eature=related
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

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    Krag..you baddly misread what I posted... I never said the average family PAID $17,000... oh boy... I said the US SPENT about 17,000 on the average family plus another 13,000 that was borrowed. for a total of about $30,000 that the US Goverment SPENT on the average family supplying it with services and goodies ... that average family PAYS only about $7000 in taxes.

    Why would you think that I am trying to prove anything? Or care if anybody believes my worldview, or how I see the future. The future is what the future turns out to be.

    I started way back about late 2006 telling folks here about what I thought about preping for disasters and holding some silver for " trading purposes". Alot of the writers that have articles over on Silverseek and Goldseek and 321 Gold have been calling the economy correctly enough to have saved my butt and I put myself ( so far) in a pretty sweet position, economically speaking, listening to them.. getting to avoid most of the downside, profit nicely, seeing 2 and 3 fold upside from some preps and positions, and being well positioned and preped for what think is coming... it was also real nice to understand pretty much what was happening and why when it started happening.. and thats with missing some optimal timings and nobody foreseeing how completely off the charts bad it actually turned out to be. But still and all the witers are close enough, often enough, to support themselves selling their subscription newsletters and financal guides and investment advice.

    I think worse is coming.. we haven't even got to the part where food supplies become erratic and real shortages kick in, much less mutant zombies coming for my preps.

    If none of this is part of your world view .. thats fine with me. Believe me, 3 years hence while we are all preping for the end of the world in 2012, nothing could possibly please me more than for you to be able to say >. the world ain't gonna end.. remember how wrong Ammo was about the economy.. economy didn't crash so the world ain't gonna end either.. and then remind eveybody again in 2029 while we are dodging asteroids how wrong I was... thats what I want to happen.

    This is all very take it or leave it.. no way to extraordinaily prove the future except to let the future play out.. on the other hand the only way to prove that the writers had a handle on what they were writting about is to go back and see what they wrote and see how things did play out.. those archves at 321Gold go back years.. those guys have a track record, and my track record following their advice and concerns has worked for me... Your milage my differ, your concerns might differ , your preps may differ.
    I think some of the writers are total crackpots.. and I think some are down right freaky psychic. I'm sure my mix ain't the same as your mix. Alot of what the ones I listen to and post links to have written in advance on many things that have played out pretty close to the line they drew and for the reasons they thought it would be so. Good enough for me.

    If you have better pronogistcators you ain't been sharing them.. and we are all , well except maybe me, poorer because you haven't.

    Now if you believe these guys I link to are wrong about why or how or for what to prepare for.. please tell us your vision of the future, what's going to happen or why, and why you think these guys are wong. Heck they got thousands of srticles posted going back quite a ways.. which articles by which authors turned out to be so wrong and on which points that they made you think they were just trying to sell something and that they , in reality, didn't know a monkey from a mailbox?

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.. not just for them mind you, but for you and me as well... You make a pretty extraordinary claim that a couple hundred profesional contrarian economists got it all wrong... there are thousands of articles to chose from, have you got even ordinary proof , like a favorite article by any of the guys I link to that got it really really wrong back along the way to where we are now?

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    One more thing, the GPS systems will have failled by then. The tankers all have tracking systems in them and we wouldn't want the Chinese to LoJack their missing tankers, now would we?
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IamElmerJFudd View Post
    It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if you've been paying attention. Time to read up on Germany after WW-1 and ferfal's piece on Argentina after their economic collapse (that one is linked in the survival library thread).

    China already owns us and without ever firing a shot. They have stated emphatically that they will not be outbid in the coming race for oil and they are hedging their bets that the owners of the oil will be more willing to accept Chinese Gold than an American IOU. Here's a TEOTWAWKI scenario for you, The United States will resort to piracy, hijacking super tankers headed for China, and China will retaliate. We surely will find out then if our president really is the beast foretold, as some here seem to think.

    In the meantime, you might enjoy this musical interlude, on me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB1cN...eature=related

    EJF I think the whole approach that leads up to and goes forth from the thought that "China owns us" is fatally flawed. None of this is China's doing, not even China's prosperity.. China' prosperity was designed , engineered , finanaced and executed by first the British out of Hong Kong and later by US Multinationals... GM is the Number 1 car maker in China and Buick is the top brand.. we got more KFC's in China tham Chinese resturants in the US,, China's economy is only about one forth of ours and we produce about 3 times what China produces in manifacturing.
    We did this to ourselves in so many ways but mostly greed and arrogance fully 3/4's of our debt is owned by US citizens or corporations.. and China only passed Japan as top foreign holder of US debt about 3 years ago, they only hold about 8%. China has only recently surpassed Mexico to become our second largest trading partner still behind Canada with it's under 40 million population.

    We spend to much and buy to much junk.. we spend to much as a Goverment, far more than we can tax, and we spend to much as individuals , far more than we earn. So we have budget deficits and a foreign trade deficits and houses underwater and more debt than we can pay off. We did it to ourselves and we refuse to face up to it and bite the bullet and stay within a budget supportable by our means.

    China has influence only because they are about that last Country on earth that still has actual cash savings with which to invest in our debt.

    Even in these dark economic times with a domestic investment pool of about 14 Trillion, almost the size of our GDP we could buy all of our own debt if we choose to... but what are we doing instead.. we are buying equites with a S&P 500 having an average PE ratio arround 150.. we are chasing a stock market boom and running up more and new debt cashing in our paid for cars for a new car with a goverment handout that comes complete with a new car loan for about 80% of the car. Now we got new payments every month and that much less to invest or save or spend on other sectors of the economy.. maybe even on Treasuries.

    If you pulled a couple trillion out of the stockmarket, PE ratios might drop down to a more sane 10 to 20 and we could buy up all of our own debt.. the buyers would get that 500 million a day in interest and it would all stay home here to help, and the Chinese wouldn't have any inluence at all. Heck you actually dont have to even pull money from the stock market.. there is about 3 or 4 Trillion sitting on the sidelines in Money markets waiting for an "entry point" to the stock market. And thats all assuming the Goverment keeps spnding like a drunken sailor on his first leave in rwo years.

    It is completely doable, a mere shift of about 10% of where we domestically invest.. China actually only buys about 600 Billion a year which all comes from trade deficits because we buy their junk instead of our own domestically produced junk. We can make junk just as good as Chinese junk if Americans would just buy it. But we don't, we refuse, to think that tactically or that far ahead.

    No none of this is China's doing.. they lucked into this, got stuck with this, and are just trying to find a graceful way out of this without losing thier shirts because we refuse to budget and tax reponsibly.

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    I seen a Chinese junk once, down to Corpus Christi. It looked to be pretty well built, even if it was a bugeater of a scow to steer in the wind....
    Pistol keeps me safe.
    Shotgun keeps me fed.
    Rifle keeps me free.

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    The national debt is projected to double under this reign and reach 97% of GDP. In less than six months our Community Organizer has intentionally accumulated more debt than all Republicans, and Democrats, combined. All of them. Over all time!

    Political?! I recognize this Administration is committing high crimes and few misdemeanors. Right now. From our children's oath-to-Obama indoctrination on Tuesday to "death panels" for our greatest generation. That's still not "political" except as an accusatory red-herring by someone who wants to subtley defend this Administration, means to distract us, and to dilute the understanding patriots might glean of what is being done to threaten their nation's, and their personal, survival.

    Might as well pull out the "class-warfare" or "race-card" at this point -- prettymuch everyone sees thru the charade now.

    Truth and Vigilance

    Alden

    PS: Can we PLEASE eliminate the soft-selling of gold and newsletters here ongoing? Now its just getting embarrassing.

    PPS: After the Administration took over GM, fired its boss then sold Hummer under the lie of being "Green" (they'll be making MORE Hummers from now on!), and is now moving its jobs, to China? Ah... Now I see. THOSE aren't the problems, its those evil American Multinationals like YUM!, joining forces with The Fed under the auspices of The Trilateral Commission and The Council on Foreign Relations, secretly controlled by the Build-A-Bear Group, scheming to dominate the world's fried chicken take-away market! No doubt someone here shot right past Original and ended up at Crispy...
    Last edited by Alden; 09-04-2009 at 11:02 PM.

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    Alden, I am having ever increasing trouble understanding the point of some of your most recent posts.. they seem to be off on some tangent. And they certainly don't seem to be addressing my points when you respond to my posts.... could you slow down and flesh out what ever it is you are talking about a little bit?

    But from what I can gleen from the above post, you seem to think that America is some strange place where all "True Americans" think alike in some sort of hive mentality lockstep orthodoxy? Thats not the America I am familiar with. I think true Americans respect each other and listen to differeing points of view and gauge the merit of the position based on the content of the discusion and not the percieved politics of the particpants.

    Listening to others is a survival skill.

    Now, this thing you have aout the "soft selling" of gold and newletters... I don't understand what your issue is ... for every type of survival prep there are supplies or knowledge that needs to be accumilated .. thats why they are called preps... firstaid kits, tents, survival storie about what works, books, canned food, water filters, most useful guns, best type of ammo. If the dollar or the economy is seen a a pending possible disaster, if you are saying you think that the goverment is mishandling somehow the budget or the economy then it only makes sense to have some preps against that possible calamity.. Thats what gold and silver is, a way to store and have purchasing power that is not dollar dependant, goverment dependant, not economy dependant.. gold and silver have no counterparty risk if you physically hold them, their value is not determined by any goverment , only by free market forces. They are the one form of trade and exchanged endorsed by the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.

    In Fact, your complaint about gold puts you unequivocably in the camp of the Fed and the money printers you seem to be railing on about who concider Gold a "Barbarious relic" to quote a former Fed Chairman.
    In Fact, if your objective is to get rid of gold as a possible survival prep for Americans, you are prefectly in line with what may be the objectives of the current administration.. some very odd stuff has been going on. http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/0...s-of-gold.html The US is supposed to have about 8000 tons. We tithe a certain ammount of gold to the IMF when they need funds, shrinking our supply even more.. and recently the IMF is planing to sell 400 tons of gold to help support failing third world economies http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...t-does-it.html So at least on the subject of gold , you and the Current Administration think alike.. get rid of the gold and the talk of US citizens being able to buy and own gold. That's what FDR did in the last great Depression in support of his remaking of America.

    You seem to have strange bedfellows at times.
    Last edited by AmmoSgt; 09-05-2009 at 03:33 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default on the news last week, maybe BBC?

    the average Chinese worker makes $1,000 American a year!
    the government is saying the people are saving too much of that $1,000.
    and the people are going to half to help with the growing cost of health care!
    maybe we shipped more than debt over there, ideas are a bit catchy too!
    as far as gold-silver its value when shtf will be dependent on if goods can be stocked piled for re sale.
    if the scarcer of goods shipped to the interior of the country are steered away.
    from ports to GOV. amounts are very small the military, government first standards, will use food for guns, labor, control, buy outs to control the populace.
    how long can personal stock piles last past two years probably maybe less?
    bank will be useless, schools will be used to monitor adults, hospitals info monitor general health of an area, and family movements.
    food -fuel rationed, limiting travel and like minded groups rallying in one area.:eek:
    interstates closed to public after set curfews, and the only gas/diesel supplies will be their under military watch for our own good , roads time controlled m-w-f-, east-west-north-south!
    new epidemics will spread the people will care less about gold, politics! then winters will set in and finish off fuel supplies, food, the elderly will parish, only the strong Will survive wanting.
    the new economic: the old plow, seeds, hunting, gardening, scavenging, pillaging the weak will become common.
    with us PRAYING its not our turn to defend the store house against large numbers of wild stronger misguided youth that only remember we the old ones messed it all up. :<>< dk

  28. #28
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    Actually the average per capita inome in China is about $4000 .. but that can be misleading.. they have a middle class much larger than the population of the US in the $20,000 range and 3 times that many real poor folks $1000-2000.
    This year the Chnese wil buy about 12.5 Million new cars compared to about 10-11 Million new cars sold in the US. The Chinese started their "clunker" program about 6 months ago and it will run into 2010.

    Average savings is about $1300.00 per person, China wants their people holding silver and gold incase the dollar crashes, so they have started a TV ad campaign to stress owning gold and silver ( mostly silver)... since China can crash the dollar, some feel this is an omminious developement.

    http://www.gold-speculator.com/edito...nvestment.html

    The world is changing fast.. try and keep up.

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    Ammo;
    You always have interesting stuff to read, don't get me wrong. Any objections are not to your opinions because everyone, like a-holes, has them, and are certainly entitled. But I reject obfuscating "facts" and the sly defence of a tyrannical Administration driving the nation into serfdom. You even both use the same 7th grade-learned propoganda techniques -- in your case continually trying to minimalize the Administration's malfeasance by yelling "political." And do I think traitors are American? You got me. Nope!

    The '08 mistake can be stopped and maybe reversed, but not by pontificating conspiracy-theorist Ron Paul devotees hunkered down in the dark corners of their mind. I also question "facts" from people who derived them to sell their products being peddled here. Its just not on.

    Instead of just bemoaning the future falling sky, rather, let's all recognize the national threat, its (at best) defeatist contrarian's appologize for, and redouble our efforts to stop and reverse it over the upcoming year.
    Last edited by Alden; 09-06-2009 at 12:55 PM.

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    please continue the postings and debate--readers can always choose to ignore!

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    Oh please it's not all that much, this peice says its a mere 5000 trillion,.....ack!


    The Chinese government has told Chinese companies they do not have to honor derivates and commodity futures contracts made with Western financial institutions.

    Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssF...ealEstateNews/
    idUSSP47327420090831?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChan nel=11604

    This is one of the most important of many nails in the coffin for the soon to implode Federal Reserve Board. The Chinese have every right to renege on those contracts because they were fraudulent. First of all the Feds manipulated the commodities markets to their benefit and to the detriment of the Chinese. They also allowed 100 times leverage thus allowing for astronomical ponzi schemes to be set up.

    Furthermore, they almost certainly did not properly explain the risks when they made their deals with the Chinese. Now that their attempt to rip off the Chinese is blowing up in their faces, these financial institutions will implode. This will set off a chain of events that will make the Lehman Brothers implosion seem like a storm in a tea cup. The total amount of derivates contracts outstanding is now over $5000 trillion or 100 times world GDP. In other words it is just a giant illusion waiting to vanish along with the institutions that peddled it
    http://benjaminfulford.typepad.com/benjaminfulford/
    .................................................. .................................................. .............
    In reality I don't think some people realize that this is not something that can be fixed. There is not enough money in the world to fix this, literally. The die has been cast, and one can prepare or ignore at their peril.
    Last edited by montello; 09-06-2009 at 12:04 AM.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alden View Post
    Ammo;
    You always have interesting stuff to read, don't get me wrong. Any objections are not to your opinions because everyone, like a-holes, has them, and are certainly entitled. But I reject obfuscating "facts" and the sly defence of a tyrannical Administration driving the nation into serfdom. You even both use the same 7th grade-learned propoganda techniques -- in your case continually trying to minimalize the Administration's malfeasance by yelling "political." And do I think traitors are American? You got me. Nope!

    The '08 mistake can be stopped and maybe reversed, but not by pontificating conspiracy-theorist Ron Paul devotees hunkered down in the dark corners of their mind. I also question "facts" from people who derived them to sell their products being peddled here. Its just not on.

    Instead of just bemoaning the future falling sky, rather, let's all recognize the national threat, its (at best) defeatist contrarian appologists, and redouble our efforts to stop and reverse it over the upcoming year.
    Alden your quarrel with my positions seperating dealing with what is, and changing the world to the your specifications, doesn't really trouble me... but you appointing yourself as sole judge and jury as to who is and isn't a traitor is not any American principle or value I am aware of. It wasn't a American value when you were calling me a traitor back when I was against the last administration doing bail outs and stimulus packages and deficits an funneling Billions to their buddies on Wall Street when you thought it was cool, and it isn't an American Value now. I was talkin Gold and Silver for survival then as well... where were you?
    Alden I was railing aganist the very same economic philosophy that you are railing against during the last several administrations while ideologues supported and excused them.. I am agianst deficits, paper money, big goverment, and socialism as a matter of principle and common sense, not because one party or the other are doing them and I did it on this forum as well as political forums.. all that accomplished was getting economic threads deleted.. and both parties are doing exacly the same thing for the same reasons... survival is about surviving regardless of which party is spending this nation into a disaster, so on this forum I stick to the economic principles.. politics is about excusing every economic malfeasance when one party does it and railing against it because the other party does it ...flipping back and forth however the wind blows..You can flip flop on the political forums all you want.. at best the ideologues ammuse me and worst they accomplish nothing becaus everybody knows they will be for what they were against the next day if the party in power changes.
    And your hostility, Alden, against Americans owning Gold to protect themselves from Big Goverment is about as Liberal and as Statist as it gets.
    Last edited by AmmoSgt; 09-06-2009 at 01:50 AM.

  33. #33
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    Heres the link that was FUBARed above

    http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssF...dChannel=11604
    There's nothing more dangerous than a colossal, bankrupt, and well-armed government--- Porter Stansberry

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    Lightbulb follow what your saying and agree most of the time

    but what happens when commodities traded for commodities becomes the rule.
    imported products don't reach the interior of the USA,except through church, or government agencies? what value gold, silver then?
    apples for potatoes, cabbage for peppers- money, gold useless except as a reference to valued imports-exports sites that are too far away from us to have much value.
    guns, ammo, fuel, meds,will have more value than gold that could be used in the coastal ports in remnants of functional civilization that still uses money..
    it will look like Africa, parts of Europe after wars,economic disasters.
    barter-ism the rule, you can't eat money and it won't spend neither will gold.
    it is easier to prop up bad systems with devalued money now than to try to start up things after they have stopped.
    an example are flea markets in the last two years money not changing hands much but item trading is going on strong.
    gun shows less money changing hands during a deal, but trading products for products still bartering with less propped up boot.
    yes banks are failing yes governments are dividing the resources away from the norm but how far will it fall away from norms? when exports stop and the goods are kept in country trade collapse, then gold will still pass hands, just not at local markets were food for food trade will remain, chickens for goats, hogs for corn, cows for horses etc. will be the rule gold for ----what? <>< dk

  35. #35
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    Ammo;

    Don't forget that the Chinese are not just buying Gold and Silver, they are also stockpiling Copper, and lots of it. Commodities of all sorts.

  36. #36
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    They just hauled away over 200,000 # of 316 stainless steel from my yard. And paid .20 per pound above the current market.
    Oldgoat46
    " In Biblical times Samson slew 40,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass. Everyday an equal number of sales are killed by the use of the same weapon."

  37. #37
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    Here's the latest: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...r-1798175.html

    The demise of the dollar

    In a graphic illustration of the new world order, Arab states have launched secret moves with China, Russia and France to stop using the US currency for oil trading

    By Robert Fisk

    Tuesday, 6 October 2009

    Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars.

    In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.

    Secret meetings have already been held by finance ministers and central bank governors in Russia, China, Japan and Brazil to work on the scheme, which will mean that oil will no longer be priced in dollars.

    The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold prices, but it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar markets within nine years.

    The Americans, who are aware the meetings have taken place – although they have not discovered the details – are sure to fight this international cabal which will include hitherto loyal allies Japan and the Gulf Arabs. Against the background to these currency meetings, Sun Bigan, China's former special envoy to the Middle East, has warned there is a risk of deepening divisions between China and the US over influence and oil in the Middle East. "Bilateral quarrels and clashes are unavoidable," he told the Asia and Africa Review. "We cannot lower vigilance against hostility in the Middle East over energy interests and security."

    This sounds like a dangerous prediction of a future economic war between the US and China over Middle East oil – yet again turning the region's conflicts into a battle for great power supremacy. China uses more oil incrementally than the US because its growth is less energy efficient. The transitional currency in the move away from dollars, according to Chinese banking sources, may well be gold. An indication of the huge amounts involved can be gained from the wealth of Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar who together hold an estimated $2.1 trillion in dollar reserves.

    The decline of American economic power linked to the current global recession was implicitly acknowledged by the World Bank president Robert Zoellick. "One of the legacies of this crisis may be a recognition of changed economic power relations," he said in Istanbul ahead of meetings this week of the IMF and World Bank. But it is China's extraordinary new financial power – along with past anger among oil-producing and oil-consuming nations at America's power to interfere in the international financial system – which has prompted the latest discussions involving the Gulf states.

    Brazil has shown interest in collaborating in non-dollar oil payments, along with India. Indeed, China appears to be the most enthusiastic of all the financial powers involved, not least because of its enormous trade with the Middle East.

    China imports 60 per cent of its oil, much of it from the Middle East and Russia. The Chinese have oil production concessions in Iraq – blocked by the US until this year – and since 2008 have held an $8bn agreement with Iran to develop refining capacity and gas resources. China has oil deals in Sudan (where it has substituted for US interests) and has been negotiating for oil concessions with Libya, where all such contracts are joint ventures.

    Furthermore, Chinese exports to the region now account for no fewer than 10 per cent of the imports of every country in the Middle East, including a huge range of products from cars to weapon systems, food, clothes, even dolls. In a clear sign of China's growing financial muscle, the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, yesterday pleaded with Beijing to let the yuan appreciate against a sliding dollar and, by extension, loosen China's reliance on US monetary policy, to help rebalance the world economy and ease upward pressure on the euro.

    Ever since the Bretton Woods agreements – the accords after the Second World War which bequeathed the architecture for the modern international financial system – America's trading partners have been left to cope with the impact of Washington's control and, in more recent years, the hegemony of the dollar as the dominant global reserve currency.

    The Chinese believe, for example, that the Americans persuaded Britain to stay out of the euro in order to prevent an earlier move away from the dollar. But Chinese banking sources say their discussions have gone too far to be blocked now. "The Russians will eventually bring in the rouble to the basket of currencies," a prominent Hong Kong broker told The Independent. "The Brits are stuck in the middle and will come into the euro. They have no choice because they won't be able to use the US dollar."

    Chinese financial sources believe President Barack Obama is too busy fixing the US economy to concentrate on the extraordinary implications of the transition from the dollar in nine years' time. The current deadline for the currency transition is 2018.

    The US discussed the trend briefly at the G20 summit in Pittsburgh; the Chinese Central Bank governor and other officials have been worrying aloud about the dollar for years. Their problem is that much of their national wealth is tied up in dollar assets.

    "These plans will change the face of international financial transactions," one Chinese banker said. "America and Britain must be very worried. You will know how worried by the thunder of denials this news will generate."

    Iran announced late last month that its foreign currency reserves would henceforth be held in euros rather than dollars. Bankers remember, of course, what happened to the last Middle East oil producer to sell its oil in euros rather than dollars. A few months after Saddam Hussein trumpeted his decision, the Americans and British invaded Iraq.

    I also found this interesting:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kabsn...eature=related
    Last edited by IamElmerJFudd; 10-06-2009 at 04:39 PM.
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

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    Well even later breaking news refutes the above story

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=apt5We30uqlA

    Of course that doesn't put the dollar in the clear.. all the reasons that such a story is even believeable are still true. It won't be other countries abandoning the dollar.. it's the US that has abandoned the dollar and is printing it into wortlessness. Ir was the US consumer that bought cheap imports instead of supporting domestic industry that provides the jobs for Americans. We run up debt, as individuals and as a nation.. and that weakens the dollar.

    Don't get the cart before the horse... the other countries are trying to figure out how to get out of the dollar because we have weakened it... the dollar is not being weakened because other countries are trying to find a way out of it.

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    like i said when i retired from military' got tired of being stabbed in the back by the folks i was standing guard for on the walls/border and in foreign lands against the barbarians for' when they come over the walls and i let them in the gates i am going to join them cause it is much more fun to rape and pillage than get stabbed in the back by the efers i was protecting. i will get mine. 27 yrs+ guarding the constitution and a bunch of ignorant twits that shouldn't be allowed to vote elect this boy that plays in adult games; and i ain't particurlarly enamored of the last one eather.

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    ammo, I saw the Reuters version of that story yesterday too. Denial may placate the masses but I still think the Saudis and other oil producers would rather get paid in gold if they have the option.

    http://moneynews.newsmax.com/finance...06/268866.html

    oops, I didn't have permission to redistribute that Reuters article, so none of y'all better look.
    Last edited by IamElmerJFudd; 10-07-2009 at 02:47 AM.
    Regards, Alan K.
    Available for Cabinet level positions, consultation on matters of foreign policy, weddings and bar-mitzvahs. Will work for gold or guns.

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    Well obviously no one still believes the initial story now that its been officially denied because gold and silver have slid back down and.....oh wait, they haven't, they're still climbing.....

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    The Chinese aren't just hoarding gold, silver and copper. Titanium, paladium, lithium, just about anything needed for military and electronics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petrov View Post
    Well obviously no one still believes the initial story now that its been officially denied because gold and silver have slid back down and.....oh wait, they haven't, they're still climbing.....
    Arrrrghhh Petrov... gold and silver are climbing for so many reasons, some reasons related to gold and silver itself ( particularly silver ) such as a retail shortage of retail gold and silver bullion... and yes there is a dollar component.. but the dollar has been drifting down for decades, long before there was any serious talk about replacing the dollar as the worlds reserve currency... in fact the only reason anybody is talking about replacing the dollar is because it is weak. So it doesn't matter if the talk is true or not, the dollar is getting weaker anyway. The dollar has been slightly weker in the past, we are near all time lows, but the last time the dollar was this low, replacing it as the reserve currency was crazy talk. This time it is a serious possibility because of the way the dollar became weak.

    All the talk or replacing the dollar is an effect of the weak and weakening dollar, not the cause of the weakening dollar. Last year at this time was the low point of the dollar.. there was no multi trillion dollar bond sales to borrow multi trillions of dollars to cover the budget deficit... the Fed was not buying hundreds of billions of dollars of bonds in a program of quanitive easing and monetizing the debt to keep bond yeilds low, bonds that nobody else would buy I might add, because the interest rate on them is way to low concidering the risk they represent.. all these trillions of dollars worth of bonds being sold represent fresh printed money that can only be paid back by tax dollars, or inflated and devalued dollars. Since we cannot tax people and corporations enough to ever repay the trillions without commiting economic suicide.. that only leaves making the dollar worth so little we can easily raise the cash to pay it off thru selling chunks of real things like land, bulidings, and commodities in America at crazy inflated prices to our debtors. Or we could outright default on all our debt and forget ever buying anything from overseas with dollars again.

    Our debtors know this... they are afraid of being stuck with worthless dollars.... but how do you get rid of dollars... our economy is 4 times bigger than any other nation.. and our currency is overprinted and over issued... what currency can they print enough of to buy up and replace all those dollars with, without overprinting that currency... The Euro gets mentioned, the Euro countries have a combined economy about the size of the US.. but no one country actually backs the Euro.. the Euro only a few years old, and countries are still talking about joining or leaving the Euro as their currency.. none of them can afford to print the number of Euros it would take to replace the dollar.. China and Japan would have to print 3 times their current GDP in their local currency, all as debt, just to cover US dollars being held as currency reserves in some 200 countries.. about a dozen of which use US Dollars as that countries legal tender.

    On the other hand as our dollars loses value because of our own policies... all these other countries get hurt as well.. so they want out of the dollar.. but where to go...there isn't enough extra of all the worlds currencies combined in circulation to replace the dollars currently in currency reserves... realestate is risky in this economy... what you gonna do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by biathlon View Post
    The Chinese aren't just hoarding gold, silver and copper. Titanium, paladium, lithium, just about anything needed for military and electronics.

    biathlon... not just hoarding.. but in many cases they have become the worlds sole source for raw or refined metals in some cases, such as rare earth metals. Having previously run everybody else out of business with their low prices. Now with massive reserves of US Dollars built up from decades of Americans buying chicom crap instead of US made stuff, they are buying up mineral rights, mines and refineries of stragetic metals all over the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    Arrrrghhh
    Agreed this has been a long time coming but this talk of replacing the dollar certainly seems to have driven the message home in a hurry - quite a rapid move for the metals. Of course maybe a bunch of people were short...

    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    On the other hand as our dollars loses value because of our own policies... all these other countries get hurt as well.. so they want out of the dollar.. but where to go...there isn't enough extra of all the worlds currencies combined in circulation to replace the dollars currently in currency reserves... realestate is risky in this economy... what you gonna do?
    For "all those other countries" you could just as well substitute "all those retired Americans who are trying to live on fixed incomes." Stocks looking overvalued by traditional yardsticks (at least US stocks), real estate risky as you say, interest rates on cash held well below the rate of inflation...as you say what you gonna do?

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