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4K views 45 replies 17 participants last post by  Freebore 
#1 ·
http://thefundamentalview.blogspot.com/2009/09/china-and-buzz-of-pending-bank-default_03.html

There are over 1 Quadrillion Dollars worth of derivatives in the world today.. it was these very same derivatives under different names that brought down Enron.. they changed the names from VDS's to CDO's and CDS's and they brought down Leahman and Bear Sterns, forced massive bailouts of too big to fail financial organizations like Citi and B of A and sparked trillions in stimulus to keep credit flowing...

Now comes the next wave.. I'm not saying that this particular threat is the exact one.. but it sure is a canidate... China can take down JP Morgan for the same dirty dealing that backfired on Enron and Bear Stearns, fannie mae and freddy mac... Oh and lets not forget AIG

One Quadrillion , a thousand trillion, a tisket a tasket, we have a very full basket... we haven't cleared the first 100 Trillion in derivitives yet.. and here is another bomb tick tick tick
 
#3 ·
The Chineses have increased their gold holdings from 400 tons to over a thousand tons and have all but stop exports on China mined gold.. now the largest gold producer in the world... they have also started marketing silver to the masses, The Chinese are calculated to have about 36 Billion in saving that the Goverment is trying to get them to invest. The Chinese have a ling History with silver.. Part of that History involves the fact that the Chinese invented paper money had a bad experience with inflation and fiat money going worthless , brought down several Emperors, and were the first to outlaw paper money some 500 years after they invented it.. Paper money didn't really come back in China until the early 20th Centiry. The US in an effort to capture more trade with China in the 19th Century minted a special silver dollar, called a "Trade Dollar" that had a higher ammount of silver than the standard US silver dollat and was used almost exclusively in the Chiina Trade as a way to take market share fom other European Colonial Powers.
China started running TV commericals 2 days ago advertising the Goverment Silver Ingots and the advantages they have for the average Chinese Family.

Further they are cutting off or restricting the rare earth metals supply essential for all these fancy Green Hybrid cars and wind turbnes.. China mines 97% of all the rare earth metals in the world and has the only working refining capacity for rare eath metals in the world. The are shut down mines in California and Canada.. enviromental concerns you know, as well as China running them out of business by selling rare earths cheaper.

China has 2 Trillion in foreign reserves and has announced they would like to be about 3-5% into gold .. thats about $100 Billion or about 3000 tons .. the US is said to hold about 8000 tons .. but there has been some suspicoius boosting of our export numbers the last year or so by the export of "Gold Commerical products" an ill defined catergory of gold alloy exported ( or imported) for industrial use.. some fear the alloy is 22 Kt coin gold melted down and sold behind locked doors to help balance the trade deficit and keep China buying our Treasuries.. but that is not confirmed nor the majority suspicion.. just some odd notes and categories in offical goverment reports.
 
#5 ·
As far as I know we have been in an economic war with China , or they with us , for the last 5 years.. but now they have been hurt by our policy of unrestricted money printing and unbleliveable large Goverment Deficits.. so they are hitting back.. they are trapped in a dollar denominated world and we are ruining the value of the dollar.. They are looking for ways out and trying to give us a little of our own medicine back.... it's the frog and the scorpion crossing the Jordan River all over again.
 
#7 ·
Right now , and for about the last year, China has been converting it's 2 Trillion in reserves into stockpiles of commodities, and have been buying Businesses, mines, farms, factories, and companies arround the world in what has been called 2000 purchases of 1 Billion dollar assets. They have opened up direct currency swaps with Russia amd countries in Africa, South America, and the Middle East , and have bought a significant number of European Oil Companies...
The Chinese Foreign Reserves are being converted in to commodities and real properties and mining rights at an amazing and accelerating pace.. they unload more dollar denominated paper instruments than they buy at a rate of 2 to 1 .. This week they bought 300 Billion in IMF special drawing rights ( an artifical currency composed of the dollar, the euro, the yen , and one other ( I forget, sorry )and backed by Gold in the IMF vaults.

And a US defaut on tresuries is one way for us to get out from under this massive debt , the other is inflating the dollar into worthlessness.. the other is to drastically cut spending and drastically raise taxes.. The US Goverment as of right now is spending $17,000 per family in the US on services and bennies, and borrowing $13,000 for a total of about $30,000 per family.. said family has an average income of $47,000.
Be clear on this one point.. we have done the damage to ourselves.. all the Chinese are doing is not proping us up to the extent we need to continue as we have been doing.. China is more about China not getting dragged down with us, than trying to hurt us..it's just that we hurt ourselves unless the rest the world finances our debt.
You see the deficit really isn't pushed off on our grandhildren and children we borrow in the here and now .. the right now... the $500 Million a day debt service in intere4st payments we have run up ar paid in the hear and now as well ... everyday... $500 Million in interest.
 
#10 ·
Ammo Sgt's figures will eventually be correct when the Stimulus money is all actually spent which will be a couple of years. There will be no recovery subsequently. After her own provided figures she will "accuse" that to mention that it is this Administration's doing is "political," as though that means something. Mr. Ed Obama has spent more than ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS COMBINED. When the Communist Chinese are warning him that he is spending too much and assuming too much control of the economy, ya gotta laugh, sickly. Scared?

You should be. Wanna survive? Fight to repeal the Stimulus before its too late and impeach this "Presidente." Wanna be prepared? Do it in front of all the school kids on opening day! Friggin' Helen Kellers...

Truth & Vigilance

Alden

PS: The comparison of Enron's frauds to anything else mentioned here (OTHER than the Administration's activities) is about as misguided, or intentionally misleading, as it gets.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Two articles, contemporary to the events one from Jan 2002 on Enron

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/moriarty/moriarty013002.html

and one 7 years later Jan 2009

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/moriarty/moriarty012609.html

Both before the current administration concerning business practices , detailing the deivatives side of this pending disaster.

Folks have seen this coming, tried to tell folks, pointed out warning signs and actual warning events that demostrated precisely what would continue to happen on an ever increasing scale.
Instead of listening to sound economics and common sense.. all folks did was blame the other party and everybody kept doing exactly what they were doing... making it politial doesn't accomplish anything.. but.. if it's working for you and it's all you got.. then play that one string violin.
 
#13 ·
Thanks fixed
 
#14 ·
A Financial NWO is indeed coming.....a one world monetary policy for all.....and the Chinese are staged to dominate this policy.....wonder what the world will look like when that happens??.....good Thread Ammo....:)
 
#17 ·
As it says in the lower right hand corner ... zfacts.com.
 
#19 ·
No problem. Just google on "us debt to gdp" for tons of hits and discussion.
 
#20 ·
It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if you've been paying attention. Time to read up on Germany after WW-1 and ferfal's piece on Argentina after their economic collapse (that one is linked in the survival library thread).

China already owns us and without ever firing a shot. They have stated emphatically that they will not be outbid in the coming race for oil and they are hedging their bets that the owners of the oil will be more willing to accept Chinese Gold than an American IOU. Here's a TEOTWAWKI scenario for you, The United States will resort to piracy, hijacking super tankers headed for China, and China will retaliate. We surely will find out then if our president really is the beast foretold, as some here seem to think.

In the meantime, you might enjoy this musical interlude, on me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB1cNkC71vE&feature=related
 
#23 ·
EJF I think the whole approach that leads up to and goes forth from the thought that "China owns us" is fatally flawed. None of this is China's doing, not even China's prosperity.. China' prosperity was designed , engineered , finanaced and executed by first the British out of Hong Kong and later by US Multinationals... GM is the Number 1 car maker in China and Buick is the top brand.. we got more KFC's in China tham Chinese resturants in the US,, China's economy is only about one forth of ours and we produce about 3 times what China produces in manifacturing.
We did this to ourselves in so many ways but mostly greed and arrogance fully 3/4's of our debt is owned by US citizens or corporations.. and China only passed Japan as top foreign holder of US debt about 3 years ago, they only hold about 8%. China has only recently surpassed Mexico to become our second largest trading partner still behind Canada with it's under 40 million population.

We spend to much and buy to much junk.. we spend to much as a Goverment, far more than we can tax, and we spend to much as individuals , far more than we earn. So we have budget deficits and a foreign trade deficits and houses underwater and more debt than we can pay off. We did it to ourselves and we refuse to face up to it and bite the bullet and stay within a budget supportable by our means.

China has influence only because they are about that last Country on earth that still has actual cash savings with which to invest in our debt.

Even in these dark economic times with a domestic investment pool of about 14 Trillion, almost the size of our GDP we could buy all of our own debt if we choose to... but what are we doing instead.. we are buying equites with a S&P 500 having an average PE ratio arround 150.. we are chasing a stock market boom and running up more and new debt cashing in our paid for cars for a new car with a goverment handout that comes complete with a new car loan for about 80% of the car. Now we got new payments every month and that much less to invest or save or spend on other sectors of the economy.. maybe even on Treasuries.

If you pulled a couple trillion out of the stockmarket, PE ratios might drop down to a more sane 10 to 20 and we could buy up all of our own debt.. the buyers would get that 500 million a day in interest and it would all stay home here to help, and the Chinese wouldn't have any inluence at all. Heck you actually dont have to even pull money from the stock market.. there is about 3 or 4 Trillion sitting on the sidelines in Money markets waiting for an "entry point" to the stock market. And thats all assuming the Goverment keeps spnding like a drunken sailor on his first leave in rwo years.

It is completely doable, a mere shift of about 10% of where we domestically invest.. China actually only buys about 600 Billion a year which all comes from trade deficits because we buy their junk instead of our own domestically produced junk. We can make junk just as good as Chinese junk if Americans would just buy it. But we don't, we refuse, to think that tactically or that far ahead.

No none of this is China's doing.. they lucked into this, got stuck with this, and are just trying to find a graceful way out of this without losing thier shirts because we refuse to budget and tax reponsibly.
 
#21 ·
Krag..you baddly misread what I posted... I never said the average family PAID $17,000... oh boy... I said the US SPENT about 17,000 on the average family plus another 13,000 that was borrowed. for a total of about $30,000 that the US Goverment SPENT on the average family supplying it with services and goodies ... that average family PAYS only about $7000 in taxes.

Why would you think that I am trying to prove anything? Or care if anybody believes my worldview, or how I see the future. The future is what the future turns out to be.

I started way back about late 2006 telling folks here about what I thought about preping for disasters and holding some silver for " trading purposes". Alot of the writers that have articles over on Silverseek and Goldseek and 321 Gold have been calling the economy correctly enough to have saved my butt and I put myself ( so far) in a pretty sweet position, economically speaking, listening to them.. getting to avoid most of the downside, profit nicely, seeing 2 and 3 fold upside from some preps and positions, and being well positioned and preped for what think is coming... it was also real nice to understand pretty much what was happening and why when it started happening.. and thats with missing some optimal timings and nobody foreseeing how completely off the charts bad it actually turned out to be. But still and all the witers are close enough, often enough, to support themselves selling their subscription newsletters and financal guides and investment advice.

I think worse is coming.. we haven't even got to the part where food supplies become erratic and real shortages kick in, much less mutant zombies coming for my preps.

If none of this is part of your world view .. thats fine with me. Believe me, 3 years hence while we are all preping for the end of the world in 2012, nothing could possibly please me more than for you to be able to say >. the world ain't gonna end.. remember how wrong Ammo was about the economy.. economy didn't crash so the world ain't gonna end either.. and then remind eveybody again in 2029 while we are dodging asteroids how wrong I was... thats what I want to happen.

This is all very take it or leave it.. no way to extraordinaily prove the future except to let the future play out.. on the other hand the only way to prove that the writers had a handle on what they were writting about is to go back and see what they wrote and see how things did play out.. those archves at 321Gold go back years.. those guys have a track record, and my track record following their advice and concerns has worked for me... Your milage my differ, your concerns might differ , your preps may differ.
I think some of the writers are total crackpots.. and I think some are down right freaky psychic. I'm sure my mix ain't the same as your mix. Alot of what the ones I listen to and post links to have written in advance on many things that have played out pretty close to the line they drew and for the reasons they thought it would be so. Good enough for me.

If you have better pronogistcators you ain't been sharing them.. and we are all , well except maybe me, poorer because you haven't.

Now if you believe these guys I link to are wrong about why or how or for what to prepare for.. please tell us your vision of the future, what's going to happen or why, and why you think these guys are wong. Heck they got thousands of srticles posted going back quite a ways.. which articles by which authors turned out to be so wrong and on which points that they made you think they were just trying to sell something and that they , in reality, didn't know a monkey from a mailbox?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.. not just for them mind you, but for you and me as well... You make a pretty extraordinary claim that a couple hundred profesional contrarian economists got it all wrong... there are thousands of articles to chose from, have you got even ordinary proof , like a favorite article by any of the guys I link to that got it really really wrong back along the way to where we are now?
 
#22 ·
One more thing, the GPS systems will have failled by then. The tankers all have tracking systems in them and we wouldn't want the Chinese to LoJack their missing tankers, now would we?
 
#25 · (Edited)
The national debt is projected to double under this reign and reach 97% of GDP. In less than six months our Community Organizer has intentionally accumulated more debt than all Republicans, and Democrats, combined. All of them. Over all time!

Political?! I recognize this Administration is committing high crimes and few misdemeanors. Right now. From our children's oath-to-Obama indoctrination on Tuesday to "death panels" for our greatest generation. That's still not "political" except as an accusatory red-herring by someone who wants to subtley defend this Administration, means to distract us, and to dilute the understanding patriots might glean of what is being done to threaten their nation's, and their personal, survival.

Might as well pull out the "class-warfare" or "race-card" at this point -- prettymuch everyone sees thru the charade now.

Truth and Vigilance

Alden

PS: Can we PLEASE eliminate the soft-selling of gold and newsletters here ongoing? Now its just getting embarrassing.

PPS: After the Administration took over GM, fired its boss then sold Hummer under the lie of being "Green" (they'll be making MORE Hummers from now on!), and is now moving its jobs, to China? Ah... Now I see. THOSE aren't the problems, its those evil American Multinationals like YUM!, joining forces with The Fed under the auspices of The Trilateral Commission and The Council on Foreign Relations, secretly controlled by the Build-A-Bear Group, scheming to dominate the world's fried chicken take-away market! No doubt someone here shot right past Original and ended up at Crispy... :rolleyes:
 
#26 · (Edited)
Alden, I am having ever increasing trouble understanding the point of some of your most recent posts.. they seem to be off on some tangent. And they certainly don't seem to be addressing my points when you respond to my posts.... could you slow down and flesh out what ever it is you are talking about a little bit?

But from what I can gleen from the above post, you seem to think that America is some strange place where all "True Americans" think alike in some sort of hive mentality lockstep orthodoxy? Thats not the America I am familiar with. I think true Americans respect each other and listen to differeing points of view and gauge the merit of the position based on the content of the discusion and not the percieved politics of the particpants.

Listening to others is a survival skill.

Now, this thing you have aout the "soft selling" of gold and newletters... I don't understand what your issue is ... for every type of survival prep there are supplies or knowledge that needs to be accumilated .. thats why they are called preps... firstaid kits, tents, survival storie about what works, books, canned food, water filters, most useful guns, best type of ammo. If the dollar or the economy is seen a a pending possible disaster, if you are saying you think that the goverment is mishandling somehow the budget or the economy then it only makes sense to have some preps against that possible calamity.. Thats what gold and silver is, a way to store and have purchasing power that is not dollar dependant, goverment dependant, not economy dependant.. gold and silver have no counterparty risk if you physically hold them, their value is not determined by any goverment , only by free market forces. They are the one form of trade and exchanged endorsed by the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.

In Fact, your complaint about gold puts you unequivocably in the camp of the Fed and the money printers you seem to be railing on about who concider Gold a "Barbarious relic" to quote a former Fed Chairman.
In Fact, if your objective is to get rid of gold as a possible survival prep for Americans, you are prefectly in line with what may be the objectives of the current administration.. some very odd stuff has been going on. http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/08/us-exported-5000-metric-tonnes-of-gold.html The US is supposed to have about 8000 tons. We tithe a certain ammount of gold to the IMF when they need funds, shrinking our supply even more.. and recently the IMF is planing to sell 400 tons of gold to help support failing third world economies http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/us-approves-imf-gold-sales-what-does-it.html So at least on the subject of gold , you and the Current Administration think alike.. get rid of the gold and the talk of US citizens being able to buy and own gold. That's what FDR did in the last great Depression in support of his remaking of America.

You seem to have strange bedfellows at times.
 
#27 ·
on the news last week, maybe BBC?

the average Chinese worker makes $1,000 American a year!
the government is saying the people are saving too much of that $1,000:confused:.
and the people are going to half to help with the growing cost of health care!:rolleyes:
maybe we shipped more than debt over there, ideas are a bit catchy too!
as far as gold-silver its value when shtf will be dependent on if goods can be stocked piled for re sale.
if the scarcer of goods shipped to the interior of the country are steered away.
from ports to GOV. amounts are very small the military, government first standards, will use food for guns, labor, control, buy outs to control the populace.
how long can personal stock piles last past two years probably maybe less?
bank will be useless, schools will be used to monitor adults, hospitals info monitor general health of an area, and family movements.
food -fuel rationed, limiting travel and like minded groups rallying in one area.:eek:
interstates closed to public after set curfews, and the only gas/diesel supplies will be their under military watch for our own good :eek:, roads time controlled m-w-f-, east-west-north-south!
new epidemics will spread the people will care less about gold, politics! then winters will set in and finish off fuel supplies, food, the elderly will parish, only the strong Will survive wanting.
the new economic: the old plow, seeds, hunting, gardening,:confused: scavenging, pillaging the weak will become common.
with us PRAYING its not our turn to defend the store house against large numbers of wild stronger misguided youth that only remember we the old ones messed it all up. :mad:<>< dk
 
#28 ·
Actually the average per capita inome in China is about $4000 .. but that can be misleading.. they have a middle class much larger than the population of the US in the $20,000 range and 3 times that many real poor folks $1000-2000.
This year the Chnese wil buy about 12.5 Million new cars compared to about 10-11 Million new cars sold in the US. The Chinese started their "clunker" program about 6 months ago and it will run into 2010.

Average savings is about $1300.00 per person, China wants their people holding silver and gold incase the dollar crashes, so they have started a TV ad campaign to stress owning gold and silver ( mostly silver)... since China can crash the dollar, some feel this is an omminious developement.

http://www.gold-speculator.com/editors-picks/9104-china-encourages-silver-bullion-investment.html

The world is changing fast.. try and keep up.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Ammo;
You always have interesting stuff to read, don't get me wrong. Any objections are not to your opinions because everyone, like a-holes, has them, and are certainly entitled. But I reject obfuscating "facts" and the sly defence of a tyrannical Administration driving the nation into serfdom. You even both use the same 7th grade-learned propoganda techniques -- in your case continually trying to minimalize the Administration's malfeasance by yelling "political." And do I think traitors are American? You got me. Nope!

The '08 mistake can be stopped and maybe reversed, but not by pontificating conspiracy-theorist Ron Paul devotees hunkered down in the dark corners of their mind. I also question "facts" from people who derived them to sell their products being peddled here. Its just not on.

Instead of just bemoaning the future falling sky, rather, let's all recognize the national threat, its (at best) defeatist contrarian's appologize for, and redouble our efforts to stop and reverse it over the upcoming year.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Ammo;
You always have interesting stuff to read, don't get me wrong. Any objections are not to your opinions because everyone, like a-holes, has them, and are certainly entitled. But I reject obfuscating "facts" and the sly defence of a tyrannical Administration driving the nation into serfdom. You even both use the same 7th grade-learned propoganda techniques -- in your case continually trying to minimalize the Administration's malfeasance by yelling "political." And do I think traitors are American? You got me. Nope!

The '08 mistake can be stopped and maybe reversed, but not by pontificating conspiracy-theorist Ron Paul devotees hunkered down in the dark corners of their mind. I also question "facts" from people who derived them to sell their products being peddled here. Its just not on.

Instead of just bemoaning the future falling sky, rather, let's all recognize the national threat, its (at best) defeatist contrarian appologists, and redouble our efforts to stop and reverse it over the upcoming year.
Alden your quarrel with my positions seperating dealing with what is, and changing the world to the your specifications, doesn't really trouble me... but you appointing yourself as sole judge and jury as to who is and isn't a traitor is not any American principle or value I am aware of. It wasn't a American value when you were calling me a traitor back when I was against the last administration doing bail outs and stimulus packages and deficits an funneling Billions to their buddies on Wall Street when you thought it was cool, and it isn't an American Value now. I was talkin Gold and Silver for survival then as well... where were you?
Alden I was railing aganist the very same economic philosophy that you are railing against during the last several administrations while ideologues supported and excused them.. I am agianst deficits, paper money, big goverment, and socialism as a matter of principle and common sense, not because one party or the other are doing them and I did it on this forum as well as political forums.. all that accomplished was getting economic threads deleted.. and both parties are doing exacly the same thing for the same reasons... survival is about surviving regardless of which party is spending this nation into a disaster, so on this forum I stick to the economic principles.. politics is about excusing every economic malfeasance when one party does it and railing against it because the other party does it ...flipping back and forth however the wind blows..You can flip flop on the political forums all you want.. at best the ideologues ammuse me and worst they accomplish nothing becaus everybody knows they will be for what they were against the next day if the party in power changes.
And your hostility, Alden, against Americans owning Gold to protect themselves from Big Goverment is about as Liberal and as Statist as it gets.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Oh please it's not all that much, this peice says its a mere 5000 trillion,.....ack!


The Chinese government has told Chinese companies they do not have to honor derivates and commodity futures contracts made with Western financial institutions.

Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssFinancialServicesAndRealEstateNews/
idUSSP47327420090831?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=11604

This is one of the most important of many nails in the coffin for the soon to implode Federal Reserve Board. The Chinese have every right to renege on those contracts because they were fraudulent. First of all the Feds manipulated the commodities markets to their benefit and to the detriment of the Chinese. They also allowed 100 times leverage thus allowing for astronomical ponzi schemes to be set up.

Furthermore, they almost certainly did not properly explain the risks when they made their deals with the Chinese. Now that their attempt to rip off the Chinese is blowing up in their faces, these financial institutions will implode. This will set off a chain of events that will make the Lehman Brothers implosion seem like a storm in a tea cup. The total amount of derivates contracts outstanding is now over $5000 trillion or 100 times world GDP. In other words it is just a giant illusion waiting to vanish along with the institutions that peddled it
http://benjaminfulford.typepad.com/benjaminfulford/
.................................................................................................................
In reality I don't think some people realize that this is not something that can be fixed. There is not enough money in the world to fix this, literally. The die has been cast, and one can prepare or ignore at their peril.
 
#34 ·
follow what your saying and agree most of the time

but what happens when commodities traded for commodities becomes the rule.
imported products don't reach the interior of the USA,except through church, or government agencies? what value gold, silver then?
apples for potatoes, cabbage for peppers- money, gold useless except as a reference to valued imports-exports sites that are too far away from us to have much value.
guns, ammo, fuel, meds,will have more value than gold that could be used in the coastal ports in remnants of functional civilization that still uses money..
it will look like Africa, parts of Europe after wars,economic disasters.
barter-ism the rule, you can't eat money and it won't spend neither will gold.
it is easier to prop up bad systems with devalued money now than to try to start up things after they have stopped.
an example are flea markets in the last two years money not changing hands much but item trading is going on strong.
gun shows less money changing hands during a deal, but trading products for products still bartering with less propped up boot.
yes banks are failing yes governments are dividing the resources away from the norm but how far will it fall away from norms? when exports stop and the goods are kept in country trade collapse, then gold will still pass hands, just not at local markets were food for food trade will remain, chickens for goats, hogs for corn, cows for horses etc. will be the rule gold for ----what? <>< dk
 
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