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  1. #1
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    Sep 2009
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    Default 2 Bayonets W Metal Sheath 4 Sided Blade No Makers Name-Help ID!

    Hello~I just got 2 bayonets in metal sheaths at a garage sale and they are almost identical except for size. Each of the blades is 4 sided. The 1st one's overall length in the metal sheath is 25 3/4"L, the brassy looking handle is 4 3/4"L, the blade is almost 20 1/2"L; there is a stamped mark that reads "B80288." The second one's overall length is 25 1/2", brassy looking handle is 4 3/4"L, blade length is 20 1/4"; there is a stamped marked that reads "81427." There is what I think is some Cosmolene on each blade. I thank all in advance for any assistance that you can give me.
    B80288


    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonet1.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonet9.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneta.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetb.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetc.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetd.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonete.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetf.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetg.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneth.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneti.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetj.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetk.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetl.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetm.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetn.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneto.jpg


    bayo 81427
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo1.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo2.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo3.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo4.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo5.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo6.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo7.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo8.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo9.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo9a.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo9b.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayo9c.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonet1.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonet9.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneta.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetb.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetc.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetd.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonete.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetf.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetg.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneth.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneti.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetj.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetk.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetl.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetm.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayonetn.jpg
    http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/crystalsnstones/bayoneto.jpg
    Last edited by learning; 09-14-2009 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default

    Both bayonets are French Mle. 1886/93/16s' for the Lebel, and Mannlicher Berthier rifles. Affectionately called "Rosalie", by French troops. One has a brass handle, the other nickel/steel. I would guess, that the shorter was snapped off, and repointed. Otherwise, they are the same.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    11

    Default 2 Bayonets W Metal Sheath 4 Sided Blade No Makers Name-Help ID!

    I thank you for your help, and I would appreciate some clarification. When you state that they are French "Mle 1886/93/16s'-what does this mean? Is the "Lebel" and "Mannlicher Berthier" both names of rifles?
    Also, are these common bayonets and is this the correct term? I don't know if this is proper to ask, but do these carry any value or desirability?
    Again, many thanks for your time and help.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    2,298

    French Nomeclature

    Guys: The French Mle 1886 rifle is called "Lebel' after General Nicolas Lebel, who was president of the commitee that designed it. It was the first smokeless powder rifle....It is a tube feed gun.

    The Berthier is named for Andre Berthier, an employee of the Algerian Railways, who designed the weapon, basing it on the Lebel action and cartridge. The Berthier uses either a 3 shot or 5 shot en bloc clip.

    The bayonets with the quillion are intended for the Lebel, those made without are for the Berthier Rifle, they do not fit the Carbine...

    Dale
    "If those sweethearts won't face German bullets, Then they'll face French ones!"

  5. #5
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    Default

    Sorry about that. One should never assume. Yes, as stated, they are the names of rifles. Both bayonets are very common. They tend to sell for $75-100.00 each. The shortened blade on the one, will detract from it's value.

  6. #6
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    Sep 2009
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vonmazur View Post
    Guys:

    The bayonets with the quillion are intended for the Lebel, those made without are for the Berthier Rifle, they do not fit the Carbine...

    Dale
    I just wanted to clarify a few points as all of this is new to me. It seems that I made a mistake on one of the dimensions on the shorter scabbard. Both are the same size, and the only difference being is that one scabbard has a little big larger diameter then the other, and of course, both have a rounded end. The blades are exactly the same size and show no signs of being reworked in any way. Also, I had mentioned that the blades retain some Cosmolene~does that make any difference? Just to clarify, these "are for the Berthier Rifle"-without a doubt? Is there a way to date either of these? Where would you suggest that I sell them? This is certainly an unexpected find, not something that I normally look for, but I felt that they were the real thing and not repo's. Again, many thanks for all of your help, and I hope that I am not offended anyone in asking my questions...

  7. #7
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    You're a newbie, nobody's offended, we're just surprised at your lack of familiarity- we're used to talking to other collectors who're at least passingly familiar.

    The French "Rosalie" bayonets were meant to fit both the Lebel type and Berthier type rifles because both models of rifle were in service in the French army at the same time- makes sense to have all the accoutrements possible interchange for simplicity.

    Best place to sell them, probably, is on the WTS board here on Gunboards. Name a price, post pictures, wait for somebody to say they want one or both. Free and easy to do.

    Really, unless bayonets are specially marked in some way, or an unusual or rare type to begin with, generally don't vary much in pricerange except if they're damaged or deteriorated.

  8. #8
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    Default

    "and I hope that I am not offended anyone in asking my questions... "
    Why laddie, the crusty auld collectors of twisty rust that haunt this site cherish nothing more than the chance to flaunt their knowledge- perchance whilst tamping their pipes and swirling the golden amber of single malt Scotch, surrounded by dusty tomes of blade research, mumbling 'Ahh, that's it for sure, the very one...' and chuckling wryly as their scarred finger finds the elusive identification sought by the neophyte- chuckling because they know the mystic allure of Bayonettery has seduced yet another...
    Well, that's how I do it, anyways.
    Your mileage may vary.
    ...where's my meds...?
    Last edited by Stede; 09-14-2009 at 09:23 PM. Reason: too much of th' Golden Amber...

  9. #9
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    Good morning,
    I think it would be safe to assume your abyonets are original. French bayonets in general are not valuable enough to copy, unlike German ones. Some models were shortened (for some reason or another, I'm sure the experts can elaborate upon that) when recalled to the armoury, and re-pointing a broken piece was regularly done also. There was a war on you know, metal was scarce.
    These pieces will certainly be of interest to collectors of french weaponry, and interest in WWII stuff is increasing.
    Best Regards, A
    I'd rather have a bottle in frontame than a frontal lobotomy.
    --------------
    Author of the bestseller: "Strangling small furry animals for fun and profit." (University of Lagos/Nigeria press - 1978)

    Honorary curator to the Outer-Azerbeidjan National Museum of Ancient Milkbottle Caps (OANMAMC).

  10. #10
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    Default

    There re German WII shortened ones that are more valuable as they are "German" otherwise the Lebel has no real rare ones. In 1916 the length of the lebels was reduced by the french so there are lots of variations.

    As for Stedes comments, I now know who the "peeping tom" is

  11. #11
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    These two bayonets, are no doubt originals. Andrey. I'm afraid I must disagree. There are currently, and have for some time, been several fake "French" bayonets available on ebay. All coming out of China. Granted, some are similar to German reworks, but French just the same. I remember back several years ago, members of the old bayonet forum were buying them. Stating that they were locally "War Lord" produced. I don't recall seeing any Lebel types. Probably too time consuming, to grind the cruciform blades. Now-a-days, anything, and everything can be suspect. I'm glad I'm not a new, young collector just starting out. I just watched two fake Japanese NCO swords sell for waaaay too much. One, was a very good fake, but for the BRASS handle. Sold for $608.00. The other was a very bad fake, it sold for over $400.00.

  12. #12
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    Some pretty awful Gras imitations pop up on ebay every so often- always from a seller in China. The "best" (worst?) ones have gibberish engraved on the spine in a faux arsenal marking. They all look like they were buried in a swamp for a month.

  13. #13
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    Actually, I've heard that they are buried in chicken poop, for a week. That'll do it!:eek:

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by trenchwarfare View Post
    Actually, I've heard that they are buried in chicken poop, for a week. That'll do it!:eek:
    No, no... cat poop. They dump the cat litter in a pile and stick the blades in.

  15. #15
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    But TP, wouldn't cat poo rot the blades off?:D The only thing more vile than cat poop, is reptile poop!:eek:

  16. #16

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    Yep, tried that - you're right. :D

  17. #17
    Join Date
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    Thumbs up

    Thx for the update.
    I ment there probably are no fakes (yet) of the french CRUCIFORM bayonets. I should have been more specific about that point. They're plentiful and thus still relatively cheap.
    Of course there will always be entreprising people who will try to copy the less available models, and pass them off as the real stuff...
    I'm not really into french stuff, so I am sure you guys are much more knowledgable about it than me. Serious.
    Best Regards, A
    I'd rather have a bottle in frontame than a frontal lobotomy.
    --------------
    Author of the bestseller: "Strangling small furry animals for fun and profit." (University of Lagos/Nigeria press - 1978)

    Honorary curator to the Outer-Azerbeidjan National Museum of Ancient Milkbottle Caps (OANMAMC).

  18. #18
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    But there have been fakes of the British crucifrorm spike bayonet.

    Since I bought mine off the wall in a junk shop for $6 and the markings are coeerct, I must assume it's the real thing.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANDREY View Post
    Thx for the update.
    I ment there probably are no fakes (yet) of the french CRUCIFORM bayonets. I should have been more specific about that point. They're plentiful and thus still relatively cheap.
    Of course there will always be entreprising people who will try to copy the less available models, and pass them off as the real stuff...
    I'm not really into french stuff, so I am sure you guys are much more knowledgable about it than me. Serious.
    Best Regards, A
    I saw a fake 86/16 in a local antiwue shop a couple of months ago. First I'd seen of this model so I spent a bit of time examining it. It had all the usual 'Chinese' characteristics.

    - Best regards! Mike
    "Plunk your magic twanger Froggy!" - Andy Devine

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9pPFCjRPvM

    "Where does the mind end and the world begin?"

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