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Thread: Hornady 6.5 Japanese 140 grain SP ammo problem?

  1. #1
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    Default Hornady 6.5 Japanese 140 grain SP ammo problem?

    Yesterday, I purchased some Hornady 6.5 Japanese ammo for my T-38, and it won't chamber from the magazine. I'm seeing some binding marks below the shoulders of the casings, and I also noticed that the cartridge bottom is marked (in Cyrillic) "PPU-6.5 X 51 R." It is my understanding that the T-38 cartridge was originally 6.5 X 50 R. In addition, the specs I found on Surplusrifle.com show an overall cartridge length of 2.98", and this here appears to be 2.75" overall. The case length seems to be fine, but the bullet length appears short (shorter than those shown in Duncun McCollum's book). Thus, this would appear to be an ammo manufacturing problem--not the rifle. In short, the rounds won't seat onto the bolt face while chambering.

    Anyone else had this problem? The Norma website also shows 6.5 X 50 for it's Arisaka round, so, again, I'm thinking it's the ammo. PLMK

    Dean
    Last edited by K98b; 10-25-2009 at 02:53 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default actually its either or neither.

    the 6.5x51 is the correct ammo for the arisaka ,just a differnt name for the same round,called 6.5x50 in the west..Ive loaded 1000's of rds on the PRVI 6.5x51 crrylic stamped ammo with no problem.It sounds more like a feed problem than a ammo problem,possibly with your extractor being slightly off spec tolerance wise. Ive never known or heard of anyone having a feed issue with the commercial ammo or brass that wasnt rifle related.case is optimally 50.39 mm/1.984in. differnt countries call it differnt things.
    Last edited by davef; 10-25-2009 at 02:59 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default 6.5 Hornady ammo

    Thanks for your input.

    I forgot to mention that I CAN close the bolt completely if I manually insert a round into the chamber. A distinct pop/click is heard as I turn the bolt handle to the right. I assume it's the base of the cartridge snapping into place against the bolt face. When I reopen the bolt, the round is as it should be--flush and center against the bolt face and within the extractor claw.

    The 0.25" difference in overall cartridge length ( i.e., bullet length, as the casing is the correct length) wouldn't affect chambering from the magazine? Oddly enough, the binding marks on the shell casings is occurring about 0.25" below the shoulder on each of the cartridges I tried. I may try some of the Norma ammo with the longer Alaska bullet just to see if this problem carries over.

  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by K98b View Post
    ...if I manually insert a round into the chamber. A distinct pop/click is heard as I turn the bolt handle to the right. I assume it's the base of the cartridge snapping into place against the bolt face.

    That pop/click you hear is probably the extractor jumping over the cartridge rim. I would advise against that to much. You can chip or break the extractor. It's usually good practice to avoid hand feeding a cartridge into a bolt action or semi-auto.
    If you have any info on the 503rd or Corregidor during WWII...lets talk

  5. #5
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by K98b View Post
    Yesterday, I purchased some Hornady 6.5 Japanese ammo for my T-38, and it won't chamber from the magazine. I'm seeing some binding marks below the shoulders of the casings, and I also noticed that the cartridge bottom is marked (in Cyrillic) "PPU-6.5 X 51 R." It is my understanding that the T-38 cartridge was originally 6.5 X 50 R. In addition, the specs I found on Surplusrifle.com show an overall cartridge length of 2.98", and this here appears to be 2.75" overall. The case length seems to be fine, but the bullet length appears short (shorter than those shown in Duncun McCollum's book). Thus, this would appear to be an ammo manufacturing problem--not the rifle. In short, the rounds won't seat onto the bolt face while chambering.

    Anyone else had this problem? The Norma website also shows 6.5 X 50 for it's Arisaka round, so, again, I'm thinking it's the ammo. PLMK

    Dean
    I have had exactly the same problem. I posted here about it shortly after this ammo became common on the market and quite some time back. It would only happen in my T-97 snipers, every one of them and I had about 4 or 5 at the time. It would feed in the T-38's. I have had some since then and it did OK.

    I got around the problem by just barely starting the round into the chamber and let the bolt pick it up and avoided the extractor "snap". If I feed from the mag it was a mess and damaged the side of the case near the shoulder.

    I have used a lot of Norma in the same rifles and no problem. IIRC the head of the case at the rim was more thick than the Norma. That seemed to be the problem but it has been a while and can not remember exactly.

  6. #6
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    Default

    the T38 arisaka magizine will work fine with much longer ammo than what its designed for ,no modification is needed to run 57mm mauser cases thru it. It sounds like your ammo isnt correctly engaging into the bolt face /extractor so its not striping evenly,usually thats either a slightly bent extractor,making the lip too tight,or a bad follower..tho some T38's (and a lot of T-97 ) can be a little picky about their ammo,usualy the problem is A hard to close bolt due to a very tight chamber,not feed problems..also if the ammo is loaded by hand ,rather than a stripper clip make sure its correctly in the magizine well not way forward,as it will hit before rising into the throat.The lip of the rim varies somewhat from round to round,but the extractor is supposed to have the tolerance to adapt to variations in production during war time,if the rim cant fit into the bolt face/extractor it wouldnt tip correctly to strip cleanly from the mag,and could bind. I posted a couple views of current 6.5x51 case next to original WWI/WWII stuff, first WWI kynoch which has a slightly thinner lip and lastly WWII era japanese original which is identical to the new brass
    Last edited by davef; 10-25-2009 at 09:42 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default 6.5 ammo by Hornady

    Thanks to all who've taken the time to respond. For whatever reason, the cartridges aren't passing through the extractor claw and seating correctly onto the bolt face. I'm no expert, so the problem could very well be either a bent extractor or a defective follower. It does seem to take a bit of effort to manually seat one of the rounds onto the boltface with the bolt removed from the rifle, so the opening between the face and claw may be too narrow. I'll try some of the longer Norma rounds to see if it makes any difference. If not, then I know it's the rifle.

    Interestingly enough, I also purchased some of the Hornady 7.7 X 58 for my T-99, and it chambers fine.

    Vielen Dank!

    Dean

  8. #8
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    Default

    Recently located some original 6.5mm Japanese ammo, and while it has a longer (6mm) bullet than the Hornady, it won't seat properly onto the bolt face, either. So, it's not the Hornady ammo. Any suggestions (e.g. filing/grinding a bit off the extractor) on how I can remedy this w/o buying a replacement extractor? LMK.

  9. #9
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    Shut the bolt hard and fast and I think your problem will vanish. riceone

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by K98b View Post
    Recently located some original 6.5mm Japanese ammo, and while it has a longer (6mm) bullet than the Hornady, it won't seat properly onto the bolt face, either. So, it's not the Hornady ammo. Any suggestions (e.g. filing/grinding a bit off the extractor) on how I can remedy this w/o buying a replacement extractor? LMK.
    Check for burrs, clean well. polish a little on the underside. Can't be a really big problem.
    03man - Don Voigt
    Author of "The Japanese T99 Arisaka Rifle" 2010 edition
    Co-author of "The Knee Mortars of Japan 1921-1945" 2011 edition
    Near Charlotte, NC

  11. #11
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    Default

    Thanks. I'll give both recommendations a try.

  12. #12
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    Manually put a cartridge into the bolt. See if it binds going under the extractor/ up the bolt face then adjust accordingly.

  13. #13
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    As you know, when a cartridge is picked up by the face of the bolt, the rim should slide under the extractor claw. As Big Ed says, see if there are any burrs on the bottom face of the bolt or see if the face of the claw is bent so that the rim won't easily slide under!!

    Dave

  14. #14
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    I tried Riceone's advice, but it still wouldn't take the cartridge. Shaved some brass off of the casing's shoulder instead. It does seem to take an inordinate amount of force to seat a round manually onto the bolt face compared to other Mausers I own. I took some pics but am not having any success posting them here. From a layman's eye, it appears as though the extractor claw is encroaching too far into the bolt face area, thus making it impossible to seat the round. When I load a cartridge into the chamber, the bolt will close, but with an audible snap. I'm not a machinist, but filing a bit off of the leading edge of the claw (the face of which is considerrably wider than the one on my T-99) seems like the proper fix. Any additional recommendations are welcome.

  15. #15
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    Sound like you are on the right track. This is a very critical area. Take the extractor off and bevel the leading edge. Little by little I think you'll fix.

  16. #16
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    I have two boxes of Hornady 140GR 6.5x50 ammo that I will be using this year in a custom
    Arisaka carbine. I should be taking it to the range in the next couple of weeks, the heads are
    stamped 6.5x51R also. A couple of friends of mine who have owned Arisakas and even some
    Mausers say to work the bolt hard as riceone said.

  17. #17
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    The heads are also stamped NNY or UUY.

  18. #18
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    Problem solved! Took awhile and some elbow grease, but after beveling the leading edge and polishing the underside of the claw, the Hornady is loading fine now. The original Japanese 6.5mm is loading as well, albeit with some occasional jiggling of the bolt needed in order to seat the round completely. Thanks to all who took time to respond.

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