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Thread: 9x57 reloading

  1. #1
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    Default 9x57 reloading

    I've got a JP Sauer & Sohn in 9x57. It's a really nice rifle, but ammunition is hard to find and pretty expensive. I'd like to start reloading, but can I use standard .35 caliber bullets in it? If I can, that sould give me a nice range of bullets from about 180 gr up to 250 gr. with roughly 35 whelen performance. Is this correct?
    Thanks,
    Dan

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    9X57 is a much lower pressure rating than the .35 Whelen.... CIP's rating is 2800 bar (40 500 PSI).

    Look here for reloading datas;

    http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Common%20...Cartridges.pdf

    You just need to be aware that Hodgdon people made a transcription error when they copied it from ADI;

    you should instead read;

    250 grains / H4895 (AR2206) / 45 grains / 2250 fps
    250 grains / Varget (AR2208) / 49 grains / 2250 fps

    280 grains / H4895 (AR2206) / 41.50 frains / 2100 fps
    280 grains / Varget (AR2208) / 45 grains / 2100 fps

    You can use .358" bullets in the 9X57, but be cautious and work you loads safely; the bores sizes are not consistent.
    Last edited by Baribal; 12-23-2009 at 08:43 AM.
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    Default Use 9.3x57 experience as a guide.

    The 9x57 is usefully thought of as a low pressure version of the .358 Winchester- the velocity/bullet weight relationship tracks the same but at lower pressure in the 9x57 because of the larger case (similar to 7.65 Argentine vs. .308 Winchester). There is a lot of interest and reloading data for the 9.3x57 now with the Swedish rifles coming to North America in quantity and the reloading information can be transfered to the 9x57, remembering that the slightly smaller bullet base would increase pressure a bit. I would recommend checking to make sure that a .358 bullet can freely enter the fired case (i.e. neck clearance is adequate) and then just watch case length as always after a few reloadings. The 9x57 is an old cartridge and was very popular in rifles built on the Commission 1888 style action and I think this is one reason for the low pressure. Its ballistics are way adequate for most woods hunting up though elk and moose- it was recommended by Mauser for roe, red deer,and wild boar. Good luck with it; it looks like a great rifle. Larry

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    Thanks both of you for your advice, and thanks for the compliment on the rifle. I understand why the pressure rating is low for the 9x57 given all the 88 and small ring actions out there. Is there any reason why I can't load it a bit hotter? These Sauers were being bult for the 30-06 and 8x57, both of which were rated over 55,00psi. If I go slow and watch for signs of excessive pressure, shouldn't I be able to go higher? I'm not looking to try to make it inot something it isn't, but with the bullets available today, I think it has a lot of potential. For example, if I use the load data for the 8mm, and I'm not getting flattened primers or extraction problems, it would seem to me that there shouldn't be a safety issue. A buddy of mine has a 35 whelen, which I think is a really nice cartridge. I was just thinking that with the Sauer being a large ring 98, I should be able to do something similar with my 9x57. Bottom line, I don't want to rebarrel it (sacrilege!!!), and I definitely don't want to damage the rifle or hurt mysef, but I'd like to do better than the standard loading.
    Thanks,
    Dan

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    I see www.simpsonsltd.com has a few 9x57MM rifles for sale. I always thought a 9x57 would be
    a cool rifle to hunt with.

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    Default The 9x57 was another highly useful round that should have been popular here.

    But wasn't. My sole 9x57 experience consists of owning a red and yellow box of Kynoch 9 m/m Mauser cartridges (245 grain bullet) for about 8 years now, waiting for a rifle like Dan859's to come along. I am envious. I have used the 9.3x57 and 9.3 x 62 since 1990 and also own a .35 Whelen. But not a 9x57, yet. Check out the "reloading the 9.3x57" sticky on the Scandanavian civilian and sporting rifle forum.

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    Thanks for the pointer on the Scandanavian site, lots of good info there!

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    If I had a 9x57 (and if I find a nice one, I might at some point), I'd start my quest for loads by slugging the bore and choosing bullets based on that. After that - well, the usual actions and precautions apply. Including working up loads for a particular rifle.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Well,

    This "higher-performance" question comes all the time over and over again.
    Yes, you can load it hotter. But what's the deal? tell me. In it's original form, it will (and have) kill(ed) anything you can think of in North America.
    I just don't understand this will to push old rifles / calibers to space limits to achieve what the "Modern" Remchester calibers are supposed to do better than what existed before.
    Coagula / Solve

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    Default They do make a .358 Norma Mag.

    For those who feel the need. I completely agree with Baribal on this. I am a 9x57 wanabe but my experience with the 9.3x57/9.3x62 has convinced me that the second round is not in any way superior as an elk cartridge within 100 yards in the timber. In a situation where a person might be taking 250 yard shots, then the flatter trajectory might be useful. The appeal of the 57 mm case length to me is that you can achieve useful velocity with a heavy bullet at reasonable pressure compared to the .308 base case (.358 Win.). Without a scope, the 9x57 should be just as useful as the .35 Whelen.

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    I'm not looking to do anything outrageous, and I thought I had made that pretty clear in my posts. I specifically stated I didn't want to risk injury to myself or damage to the rifle. If I didn't make myself clear, my mistake, and I apologize. There's several factors at work here. If I wanted a newer cartridge, I'd buy another rifle, or rebarrel this Sauer. That's not what I want to do. I like this gun, it's in very good condition, and I think it deserves to be unmolested. I do want to hunt with it, but factory ammo is scarce and expensive, so reloading makes sense for a number of reasons. The cartridge seems to have a lot of potential, given the bullets and powder available these days. I'm relatively new to reloading, and haven't worked with this combination yet, so I thought I'd ask, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. I look at in much the same light as the difference between the European loads for the 8x57 compared to the American loads. If this were an 8x57, I don't think using the European ammo would hurt it. Will, and has it, in its original loading kill anything in N. America? Yes, you're right about that. So have flintlock muskets. So have have spears, arrows, clubs, knives and rocks, for that matter. If technology provides a more effective means of accomplishing something, why would you not at least look at it and consider it? As long as I'll be reloading it, why wouldn't I want to achieve more of the cartridge's potential?

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    I hope I did not seem critical. I am envious of the rifle and appreciate you appreciation of that type of period sporting rifle. I load my 9.3x57's to exceed the 1920's ballistics of the 9.3x62 and consider that a useful improvement. The .35 Whelan was originally loaded hot and had optomistic results claimed for it in the days before chronographs were readily available. It was viewed as the poor guy's .375 H and H. Remington claimed reasonable ballistics when they commercialized it with the understanding that they would use it in their pump rifle. I think you can step up the 9x57 ballistics quite reasonably but not to full .35 whelan levels) and I would be more worried about that slim pistol grip than any issue of steel or action design. I have a British 12 ga. double, made and proved for 2 & 3/4 inch, 1 & 1/4 oz. loads that had the stock wrist crack while I was shooting factory 1 oz trap loads at clay pigeons. Fast powder and sharp recoil! I shoot Gew98's with high pressure 8x57 ammo but the stocks on those were meant to be used as clubs. Happy New Year and lots of enjoyment rom the Sauer!

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    I think you can step up the 9x57 ballistics quite reasonably but not to full .35 whelan levels
    That's very much in line with what I'm thinking and what I was trying to ask. Your experiences with loading the 9.3x57 to improve it's performance is just what I'd like to do with my 9mm. I've never been a fan of the "New! Improved! Flamenspitten Loudenboomers" that seem to come out every few years. Frankly, I don't like shooting them and I think it's much more a question of marketing and sales numbers as opposed to a new cartridge that fills an existing need or gap. I really do like these old German hunting rifles and I want very much to take care of and preserve the ones I have. When I'm too old to shoot any more, I'll pass them on to my sons so they can do the same thing. The issue of the stock cracking is something I've thought about. I've considered bedding the action, but the purist in me says no. On the other hand, this stock is in very good condition and has no cracks in the webbing or at the tang to this point. If it cracks some day when I'm shooting it, I'm going to kick myself for not bedding it beforehand! Thanks again for your help and Happy New year to you as well!

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    In the case of the 9X57, there is no such a thing as "dual pressure load". This duality with the 8X57 is originating from SAAMI's "protectionism" or "patriotism". No one else in the world except the few countries regulated by SAAMI (United States and partly Canada) are using the SAAMI standards. This means, the rest of the world are using CIP standards, wich also includes and regulates U.S.-originated calibers, wich the inverse is not nescessary the case with SAAMI.

    What a lot of people don't understand with reloading is that there is a direct relation between velocity and pressure. This relation, when you don't take in count friction and materials involved is an exponential function. It's purely laws of physics in action.
    This means if you don't have the proper tools to know what you're doing, you may end up with a mess even if you're using the best availlable material.
    That's why we have standards. Because of their nature, the 9X57 rifles are sometime all over the place when it come to standards, and it's one of the reasons why CIP did not "modernise" this particular caliber. After WWI a lot (most) of the 9X57 were made out of 8X57 barrels beacause of the ban of the 8X57. Some barrels are oversized, but I've seen some quite small, and I've seen quite a few with excentric bores.

    Now, as I previously said, yes, it's possible to increase the performances of the 9X57, I've done that and many others did (and still does) it too. If you absolutely want to make your own experiences, then, it's your choice to do so. Since, as I understood it, you are not an experienced reloader, I gave you what is already known and safe and proven (these loads ARE to CIP standards, because they were developped by ADI, maker of the Hodgdon "Extreme" powders). Too many people makes things they don't understand.
    One may safely achieve 100 to 200 fps more, but again, it's not a big gain and there are many other calibers on the market wich can match and even outclass this.

    Now, that's a collector's item, and it's originality makes it's global value. Again, this is not mine, so you do what you want with it. I personally hunt with most of my collectors rilfes (and I have many), but I do not modify it with modern materials. There are (more traditional, conservative) ways to do so without hurting too much the value of the rifle and keep it working for a long time to come.
    Last edited by Baribal; 01-06-2010 at 03:08 PM. Reason: added infos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan859 View Post
    I've got a JP Sauer & Sohn in 9x57. It's a really nice rifle, but ammunition is hard to find and pretty expensive. I'd like to start reloading, but can I use standard .35 caliber bullets in it? If I can, that sould give me a nice range of bullets from about 180 gr up to 250 gr. with roughly 35 whelen performance. Is this correct?
    Thanks,
    Dan

    Yes, you can load .358 bullets into your 9x57 cases, and fire them in your 9x57 gun. You'll need to replace the expander plug in your die set, with a .358 expander plug. The extra .002" is not critical, it will raise pressure slightly but not enough to damage anything- no safety issues.

    Just keep the loads on the sane side. I would use the slowest powders with minimum charge, and site the gun in for that load.

    yes, 9x57 was commercially loaded lower pressure, but that's because there were a lot of turn of the century Mauser actions such as 1891-92-93-94-95-96 models, that were rechambered to 9x57 but were not up to model 98 standards for steel hardness and strength. FWIW even the early guns will not burst, but may suffer locking lug setback into the receiver, and eventual excessive headspace, due to softer steels being used- but a judicious shooter would see it in pushed out primers on the brass. The same happened with the 8x57, the commercial ammo mfgrs. kept pressures low, so that old milsurp shooters had an extra margin of safety- they did it to avoid any possible lawsuits or legal claims.

    a 9x57 in any Model 98/copy/clone is a safe bet, the 98 is plenty strong for any loading of that cartridge, it will even handle the longer 270-280-30/06/35 Whelen pressures, and it is also strong enough to handle the Winchester belted magnums of the 1950-60's 264-300-338-458.

    so 9x57 w/358 bullets should be no sweat
    Last edited by locknloadnow; 01-24-2010 at 07:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by locknloadnow View Post
    Yes, you can load .358 bullets into your 9x57 cases, and fire them in your 9x57 gun. You'll need to replace the expander plug in your die set, with a .358 expander plug. The extra .002" is not critical, it will raise pressure slightly but not enough to damage anything- no safety issues.

    .......the commercial ammo mfgrs. kept pressures low, so that old milsurp shooters had an extra margin of safety- they did it to avoid any possible lawsuits or legal claims.



    .....so 9x57 w/358 bullets should be no sweat
    I would advise caution here. It is not safe to simply substitute .358" bullets and proceed to loading without first verifying a few things. Yes, in some cases, a .358" can be used in the 9x57. But, you must first verify that the chamber neck is sufficiently large to accomodate a round loaded with a .358" bullet and that is has adequate clearance to release the bullet upon firing. Bore sizes and corresponding neck sizes of chambers vary considerably. Some bores as small a .354" and necks proportionaly sized as well.

    I do agree that US manufacturers have the ever present threat of lawsuits hanging over their heads. Most load accordingly. In a modern action, there is some room for improvement but simply put, the 9x57 will never be a .35 Whelen, it lacks the case capacity. It can probaly come close to matching the .358 Win. If you want a Whelen buy or build one.

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    Yes, you can load .358 bullets into your 9x57 cases, and fire them in your 9x57 gun. You'll need to replace the expander plug in your die set, with a .358 expander plug. The extra .002" is not critical, it will raise pressure slightly but not enough to damage anything- no safety issues.
    Apologies for hihacking the thread, but would the same advice be prudent in using .358 bullets in a 9x56 Mannlicher Schoenauer?

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    max bullet diameter for the 9mm mannlicher and the 9x57 mauser is 9,08mm in the CIP list. it all depend s on the rifle in your hand.
    I have a M 88 sporter in 9x57 mauser and sluging the bore shows a .3565 diameter. have only try the 180 grains remington hollowpoint for 357 mag and it shoots great. for paper punching the heavy .357 pistol bullets are cheap and fly good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by z1r View Post
    I would advise caution here. It is not safe to simply substitute .358" bullets and proceed to loading without first verifying a few things. Yes, in some cases, a .358" can be used in the 9x57. But, you must first verify that the chamber neck is sufficiently large to accomodate a round loaded with a .358" bullet and that is has adequate clearance to release the bullet upon firing. Bore sizes and corresponding neck sizes of chambers vary considerably. Some bores as small a .354" and necks proportionaly sized as well.

    I do agree that US manufacturers have the ever present threat of lawsuits hanging over their heads. Most load accordingly. In a modern action, there is some room for improvement but simply put, the 9x57 will never be a .35 Whelen, it lacks the case capacity. It can probaly come close to matching the .358 Win. If you want a Whelen buy or build one.

    good point of caution, but if the bore size is .354" then it's also too small for the actual 9mm bullets as well anyway, by .002"

    I don't even think that .004" larger bullet would hurt anything- the Mauser actions and steels being what they are, they were proofed 50% over their actual operating pressures, and their strength is legendary. But I certainly would not recommend it, and it pays to be cautious, agreed there.

    .002" I could not worry about

    the 9x57 should easily outperform the 358 Winchester, being the 9x57 has a larger case capacity.

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