Results 1 to 26 of 26
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    1,667

    Default My Argentine 1891 7,65 x 53 Mauser (mauser guru's???)

    Ok here we go i'm not sure if anyone will remember many years ago i aquired a 1891 argentine mauser that was converted by Ye Old Gun Shop in LA back in the 60's from a long barrel to a short barrel carbine copy. I couldn't get the 7,65 arg round to chamber in it yet the barrel bore is for the 7,65mm round. I finally got into it today to see whats wrong so we can finally shoot this awesome looking german manufactured Sa mauser.

    The surplus ammo i have says on the case rim SF- 75- 7.65x54 and the case length measurement is 53.5mm. The gun is 7.65x54 arg right??? My problem is the bolt won't close on this ammo. When i take out the bolt and put a round in the chamber it seems and appears to be deep enough. The bolt feels like its right at the lugs but won't go that extra little bit to chamber this round.

    My question is; Are these two argentine rounds different? The 7.65x54 and the 7.65x53???
    Thanks, aka bigbill
    Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,437

    Default

    Poor quality control on the SF factory that produced the ammo is the problem.
    gil

  3. #3

    Default

    What Gil said. OR.... since it was sporterized years ago by someone else, are you SURE it is still in the original caliber?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    1,667

    Default

    Thanks, Great i have two 50 cal ammo cans of it to shoot up. The bolt closes hard on it if i force it. We just tried to clean the chamber and noticed a high spot were the case necks down to the bullet that angle seems to be rubbing hard. I'll order some new Priv-partizan ammo to see how it chambers but i'm sure your right. I have heard so many good things about these little quality mausers i'd like to shoot it and see how it groups someday. Its still in 7.65x53 arg.

    I got this arg mauser when i caught an older collector giving up his stuff to a gun shop who isn't interested in C&R's at the time. Luckily i was just browsing at the right time with a pocket full of cash. I got most of his collection but i didn't grab the P17's which i'm sorry i passed up. I got the fn49's / svt-40 and the arg mauser. I felt sad for the guy but we'll all be there someday i'm sure.
    Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    near Houston, Tx
    Posts
    86

    Default

    1911crazy, I've owned a 91 Argy since late 1960s. Back then you could sometimes find suplus Argy ammo, had 7.65 Argentne on rim as did the Norma I bought for hunting back then. Seems everyone used 7.65X53 designation for the Argentine ammo a long time. Point is sometime much much later the SF surplus ammo started to be sold in U.S. and it had 7.65X54 on its rim/box. As the two previous posters mentioned SF had a problem with quality control and there brass ran a little long, hence it is X54 instead of X53. Leastways that is what I have come to conclude from reading posts about the SF ammo for about 5 years on various gun sites. A little odd for you to have a chambering problem with it in your 91. Problem more likely with a 1909 Argy. As I understand it, the 91 has a longer chamber than the 1909 therefore less problems with SF in 91s.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    294

    Default

    SF surplus ammo = Garbage. Don't shoot that stuff! I had numerous case splits and neck splits.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,437

    Default

    You should take a few sample rounds apart. If the powder inside is intact and hasn't half of it turned to a green corrodedsubstance then the ammo is probably still OK. That is assuming that it will chamber. You might find that some will chamber and some won't. If it is the internal corroded stuff, just pull the bullets and reload in commercial brass.
    gil

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    1,667

    Default

    If I remember correctly this arg 7,65 ammo was the last that sportsmans guide had. Its very clean ammo and we pulled one apart and the powder looks like it was just manufactured. I found out its the little taper on the case neck that is wrong with it. Thats why its a little tight when i close the bolt.

    I just ordered some new brass so i can change the cases.

    If i look for new bullets should i use the .311" or the .312" ??

    BTW; The bullets are FMJBT's.
    Last edited by 1911crazy; 01-21-2010 at 11:40 AM.
    Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    4,703

    Default

    It is not the overall length (7.65x54 vs 7.65x53) on that late date Argentine ammo that is the "hard to chamber" issue. It is the placement of the shoulder on those rounds. Poor quality mfg or worn out dies or "I don't even care attitude" by the maker (the ammo went to Baby Doc in Haiti) resulted in rounds that are a bit long from the base to the shoulder datum point of headspace measurement.... thus they are HARD to chamber in many bolt guns. I bet it was not a problem in Baby Doc's old WaterCooled Browning MGs.

    I don't think there is any significant difference intended in the Argentine ammo with the 54 or 53mm suffux.....just a change in nomenclature when rounding up or down in cartridge case OAL.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    1,667

    Default

    Yup I already found out its the shoulder on the tapered part of the case yesterday. I have some fine lapping compound and an empty case that we put a screw driver slot in and gently turned the case in the chamber. We got a shiney rub mark at the point were the taper is on the body of the case. The chamber looks awesome and it cleaned up perfectly. Of course the lapping compound eats the brass before it will eat the steel. Now i'm sure my chamber is 7,65x53 and its good so the ammo is bad. The gun has been sitting here for 5 or 6 years now.

    The marked 54mm cases measure 53,5mm so they sould be ok on the length. Its the case dimentions on the body to the tapered part thats off.

    I have 200rds of new brass on the way.
    Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    1,667

    Default

    Ok we changed over two rounds to the new prvi-partizan 7,62x54 arg brass. The powder looks great in both rounds. Now it still won't chamber the new brass? I been thinking of renting a chamber reamer with the go & no go gages to see were the chamber is and if its machined deep enough. I know its 7,65x53 arg for sure. I don't know of anything else to do next?
    Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    1,312

    Default

    Gil,

    I have a BUNCH of the SF 75 and SF 77 Ammo..... Mine has all been good. I shot 50 rounds of it yesterday.... Only had two "Click-bangs" No odd pressure signes. It all chambered fine....
    (In my 1891 carbine) It was actually quite accurate
    AK_MILSURP
    Benefactor Life Member, NRA
    Life Member, Alaska Gun Collectors Association
    Life member, VFW
    Anchorage, AK
    www.amga.net

    "Remember the Range day, And keep it holy. May the light of the Holy Tracer guide thy aim"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Curious as to what brand of dies are you using for your reloading with your new brass . aaron10

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    1,667

    Default

    I just purchased new 7,65x53 brass from Priv-partizan.

    My problem is now the 7mm brass(7x57) fits the chamber. I got the go and no go headspace gages in 7,65x53 arg and the bolt isn't even close to closing on the go gage. Plus the reamer pilot doesn't fit the inside of the bore on the muzzle end when i tried to see if it fit the bore. Something is really wrong with this rifle. I'm thinking its a 7,65x57 caliber???? Or is there a wildcat???

    The serial number is on the bolt, the receiver and the orginal barrel thats on it.

    I think its cerrosafe time to cast the chamber to see exactly what caliber is it.
    Are you ready for 12-21-2012?? Lets pray its the second comming of Christ and not the end like so many predict.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    73

    Default

    First off what size is stamped on your go guage for the length there are new euro specs for the argentine cartridge that dont match the 1891 or 1909 mausers. All my 1891 mausers I had to use a go guage for the belgian 7.65 mauser and its stamped 1.821 , for the argentine 1909s my go guage is stamped 1.811. aaron10
    added info I just tried 6.5 swede ammo and 7mm ammo both will drop into take off barrels of both 1891 and 1909 argentine barrels so best bet is to slug the bore too as I know one of my 1891s was as small as .309 instead of .311 to .312.
    Last edited by aaron10; 02-21-2010 at 11:16 AM. Reason: new info

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5

    Default

    WHERE can I buy Go and No-Go and Field Gauges for this caliber?? ....and where can I send rifle to for 'reaming' and head space corrections??
    Thanks, Herm

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    1,312

    Default

    Gil,

    You know I have a bunch of that stuff, SF 75 and SF 80. It's all been decent ammo.. I have ooh maybe 500 rounds left..... I don't have an 1909's just an 1891 carbine and long rifle.....



    Quote Originally Posted by gil View Post
    You should take a few sample rounds apart. If the powder inside is intact and hasn't half of it turned to a green corrodedsubstance then the ammo is probably still OK. That is assuming that it will chamber. You might find that some will chamber and some won't. If it is the internal corroded stuff, just pull the bullets and reload in commercial brass.
    gil
    AK_MILSURP
    Benefactor Life Member, NRA
    Life Member, Alaska Gun Collectors Association
    Life member, VFW
    Anchorage, AK
    www.amga.net

    "Remember the Range day, And keep it holy. May the light of the Holy Tracer guide thy aim"

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Man a thread from 2.5 years ago. hey herm what makes you think your headspace is off. aaron10

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    New Iberia, Louisiana
    Posts
    1,433

    Default

    You may have part of a case neck broken off in your chamber. See if you can get a light to focus into the chamber. May have been there awhile. Frank

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Hello, well....I had my 'old gunsmith friend' (87 soon) install a Old Barrel I bought from a guy 'on-line' for $20.00 ! It was chewed up some from pipe-wrench but was salvageable. Anyway he installed in a action I bought from another guy on gunbroker.com ........the barrel sights ended up on the bottom when screwed in......my friend removed sights and cut off barrel end and re-crowned it and drill and tapped receiver for scope and bent the bolt and re-blued it all.

    So we are sure that the Head Space is probably bad.......(guessing anyway).....since the original sights ended up on bottom the barrel must be a 1/2 a thread off....???????......I don't know what to do now!!!!! Send it off and have it CHECKED and Reamed if necessary....or get another barrel ???? .....or just put it away? .....I have 5 of these 'sportered' (all were 'butchered' before I bought them seperately from different people ....stocks cut down, etc.) Here is my e-mail addy: [email protected] ........If you have any ideas or info to get it headspaced and reamed if necessary .......I checked price on a reamer $175.00 and gauges x's-3 at $38.00 each from a company/machineshop ........I only have about $75.00 in the action and barrel........

    HELP is much appreciated! Since my 'stroke' I've just been playing with these to try and make myself do 'something'. My mind don't work real well now and my right hand and arm and leg has problems.....but they are what the are now and this 'tinkering' does exercise my poor brain (I think)......It's "H" to get old...and I ain't even old yet (I don't think).....I feel 95 at age 63.......

    Thank You for the reply and help! ........ Herm
    Last edited by Herm; 08-06-2012 at 05:28 PM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Well, I got a answer back on buying a 'reamer' ($175) and '3 gauges' ($38 each) ........I only have about $50 in this rifle now......and I can buy another (at times) for $100 + or - some $$$ .......and it would be ready to shoot as is!........BUT, I still would like to find SOMEONE to send this rifle to and get a Expert Opinion on it! I am rather 'poor' and don't want to spend a lot, because I don't have it to spend. I hate to 'scrap it' and just hang it from a nail in the garage rafters. That Would be A Sin!!
    Herm -}}}}}}}}}}------------------------>

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,141

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Herm View Post
    Well, I got a answer back on buying a 'reamer' ($175) and '3 gauges' ($38 each) ........I only have about $50 in this rifle now......and I can buy another (at times) for $100 + or - some $$$ .......and it would be ready to shoot as is!........BUT, I still would like to find SOMEONE to send this rifle to and get a Expert Opinion on it! I am rather 'poor' and don't want to spend a lot, because I don't have it to spend. I hate to 'scrap it' and just hang it from a nail in the garage rafters. That Would be A Sin!!
    Herm -}}}}}}}}}}------------------------>
    My 1909 would not take the brass I made using LEE dies at first. I ended up grinding off a tiny bit of the base of the die to make the cases just that much shorter and they worked after that. I do not know if the dies were just a nanometer or 3 out of spec or if my gun is; the only ammo I had for it was old norma from the 60s. The norma shot fine, it was just home-made cases and used norma (after 2 goes!) that were too long *** even after trim & size die.

    All that to say, if you want me to I will make you a snap cap round (no primer, no powder) that will chamber in my gun and mail it to you. If that chambers, you can compare the round to what you have to see what the problem is. If my round does not chamber --- I do not know what to say except my gun is like new, it could have been made yesterday apart from so dings in the wood, and as mine is a bit tight (not accepting the resized cases), a round that goes in mine *should* go into any other 7.65 without a lot of fuss....

    PM if you want to try it.

    *** too long meaning shoulder was not right, the OAL was fine.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnin View Post
    My 1909 would not take the brass I made using LEE dies at first. I ended up grinding off a tiny bit of the base of the die to make the cases just that much shorter and they worked after that. I do not know if the dies were just a nanometer or 3 out of spec or if my gun is; the only ammo I had for it was old norma from the 60s. The norma shot fine, it was just home-made cases and used norma (after 2 goes!) that were too long *** even after trim & size die.

    All that to say, if you want me to I will make you a snap cap round (no primer, no powder) that will chamber in my gun and mail it to you. If that chambers, you can compare the round to what you have to see what the problem is. If my round does not chamber --- I do not know what to say except my gun is like new, it could have been made yesterday apart from so dings in the wood, and as mine is a bit tight (not accepting the resized cases), a round that goes in mine *should* go into any other 7.65 without a lot of fuss....

    PM if you want to try it.

    *** too long meaning shoulder was not right, the OAL was fine.
    WELL, I got the bolt to NOT CLOSE on a .010 (thousands) shim......but did close on a .006 shim. I shimmed the head of a case without the firing pin in the bolt body! So just maybe this gun will fire OK.....I haven't strapped it down and tried it yet "from a distance" while pulling the trigger with a string! (safety first).......BUT, Ihave another question! On later rifles the 1891 Argentine had "WINGS" on their bolt shrouds.....to send gas and particles away from the shooters eyes and face......are these 'bolt shrouds with wings' acceptable to being changed out and used on the earlier models??? .......I found that the 'cocking piece' on the firing pin is a Little Wider at the 'tail' though......but I think I can use the earlier original cocking piece though.....YOUR THOUGHTS????
    Thanks, Herm

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Oldsmar, FL (Tampa Bay)
    Posts
    22,667

    Default

    The 7.65x53 and the 7x57 Mauser cartridges were designed by Paul Mauser in 1889 and 1892 respectively. The 7.65x53, based on the rimmed Mauser 7.65x53R cartridge, was designed for the 1889 Belgian mauser and used in the 1890 to 1903 Turks, and Argentine rifles up to the 1970's. 7.65x54 is really a rounding up mistake as the real case length is about 53.4 to 53.6mm

    The SF ammo I tried, don't remember the year, was horrible, lots of duds and splits.

    http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...wtopic/id/9659

    Aubullet
    Re: history of 7.65X54 X53

    (Mar 18 06 3:45 PM)

    Veteran member
    Back from the depths of the archival file cabinet, I have finally found the reference I was seeking in this matter. Back in 1990, Rifle #132 magazine ran an article on "A forgotten Classic...7.65x53 Mauser" by Robert Gaulden. It is an interesting and enjoyable article to read describing what a great leap in technological developement this cartridge represented and how it is still a masterpiece today (in 1990 at 101 years of age).

    In the article, Gaulden mentions running into the headspace problem with the "SF" 81 ammo in his 1909 Argentine rifles and concludes that there must have been two different chamberings for the 1909's and that his were chambered for the 7.65x53 and not the 7.65x54.

    A few months later, in Rifle #135 (Nov-Dec 1990) a letter to the editor was posted which should prove definative on the issue.

    Under the heading "7.65 Mauser Update", Capt. Luis A. Garcia Bourimborde who was at that time the Argentine Defense Attache in Tokyo, who describes himself as an Ordnance Officer, states that the only designation for military ammo that was in use during the time all the rifles were manufactured was 7.65 Mauser, with no case length designation attached, and so all rifles were made to one chamber standard, within tolerences, whether 1891, 1909 or 1935 contract. The case length denomination didn't enter into the picture until the 1950's or 60's when NATO started so designating their ammo (7.62x51), and in the case of Argentina, they simply measured their case length and applied a two digit approximation by rounding up.

    Bourimborde goes on to state that he is of the opinion that the "SF" 81 ammo is likely out of spec. which he had also previously found when inspecting prior lots of Argentine manufactured ammo, but never with the old DWM, FN, HP nor Rem-UMC. He also states, "I can tell you for sure there were never two different 7.65 cartridges, only different denominations or headstamps". He also further states "Any 1891, 1909 or 1935 Argentine Mauser is safe with any military ammunition you can close the bolt on, no matter what effort is needed".

    I'm not sure I wholly agree with that last statement, but I think the general meaning is correct.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnin View Post
    My 1909 would not take the brass I made using LEE dies at first. I ended up grinding off a tiny bit of the base of the die to make the cases just that much shorter and they worked after that. I do not know if the dies were just a nanometer or 3 out of spec or if my gun is; the only ammo I had for it was old norma from the 60s. The norma shot fine, it was just home-made cases and used norma (after 2 goes!) that were too long *** even after trim & size die.

    All that to say, if you want me to I will make you a snap cap round (no primer, no powder) that will chamber in my gun and mail it to you. If that chambers, you can compare the round to what you have to see what the problem is. If my round does not chamber --- I do not know what to say except my gun is like new, it could have been made yesterday apart from so dings in the wood, and as mine is a bit tight (not accepting the resized cases), a round that goes in mine *should* go into any other 7.65 without a lot of fuss....

    PM if you want to try it.

    *** too long meaning shoulder was not right, the OAL was fine.
    OK....been awhile.....but I am messing with my rifles again since I can't find a GO and NO GO Gauge for the 7.65 Argentine 1891 rifle. .........IF your offer still stands for a ROUND that fits your rifle (no primer and no powder) ....snap cap round.....I would appreciate your help.
    Herman Kovar , P.O.Box 603 , Hardin, Illinois 62047 ........ (618) 576-2744 home phone # also .....
    Let Me Know Please!
    Thank You, Herm

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    472

    Default

    What Jonin said. If you have slightly tight headspace in your Model 1891, grind a little bit off the base of your sizing die (I also have Lee dies). By far the most cost effective solution, assuming you have verified that it is indeed still in the original chambering.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •