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Thread: cleaning pitted bore, need help

  1. #1
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    Default cleaning pitted bore, need help

    hey guys i just bought a polish m44 that looked like new on the outside and figured the bore would look the same way, wrong. after cleaning it its still dark and i shined a flashlight on the crown and its a little pitted. whenever i run patches through it it seems like the pitts are causing the patches to go through and leave little amounts of cloth behind. how can i get this bore clean without tiny pieces of patch getting left in it?
    Keep your guns close and your Bible closer...

    a gun is a tool the same as a hammer, chainsaw, wrench etc.... its only as dangerous as the person holding it.

  2. #2
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    Sorry to hear about that... been there before. The good news is that I have managed to resurrect some decent shooting from those rifles.

    Here are a couple tricks:

    1. Soak the bore in oil. Either Kroil, or WD40, or some other penetrating oil. You'll want to take the stock off of the rifle for this, as it can get messy. If there's still active rust in there, this will help to soften it.
    2. Wrap some 0000 steel wool around your bore brush and polish the bore with it. Just run it through the bore 10-20 times, and then patch it out. This should knock down the sharp pits' edges that are shredding your patches.
    3. Shoot it! You'll be surprised at its ability to hit its target despite the moonscape inside the bore. Shoot 'n clean is one of my favorite methods for shining up an old, pitted bore. Some like to clean while it's still hot but I've found it to work well even if you wait until you get home to clean it.

    The main thing is to keep at it. Leave oil in the bore overnight for the next week, and scrub and patch the bore every day a couple times. The bore will never look new, but I bet it'll shoot just fine.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by assaultrecon28 View Post
    hey guys i just bought a polish m44 that looked like new on the outside and figured the bore would look the same way, wrong. after cleaning it its still dark and i shined a flashlight on the crown and its a little pitted. whenever i run patches through it it seems like the pitts are causing the patches to go through and leave little amounts of cloth behind. how can i get this bore clean without tiny pieces of patch getting left in it?
    AR,

    Just worked on a bore like yours. Bought a handful of new thirty cal brushes and a can of Break Free Bore Cleaning Foam. Worked the bore with Hoppe's and brushes a few nights and then used the foam. Ya' probably have junk or a little corrosion in the grooves. After you spend a few nights with your new friends, shootin' might help smooth the bore, but have no experience with that, first bore that I have had to clean this way. Usually don't buy a rifle with corrosion in the bore but it was a nice M28 for a good price.
    My cleanin' got most of the junk out and the worn bore is good with a tight muzzle. Everybody has their methods but what I wrote works for me. Time and persistence will
    pay dividends.

    LB

  4. #4
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    will these methods not wear the rifleing?
    Keep your guns close and your Bible closer...

    a gun is a tool the same as a hammer, chainsaw, wrench etc.... its only as dangerous as the person holding it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by assaultrecon28 View Post
    will these methods not wear the rifleing?
    Not really. Steel wool is not really that vicious if you only run it through as Skywarp describes. I know the copper jacket is softer, but when you ram it up even a clean bore at 2600+ FPS you have to wonder how it can be LESS damaging than a few strokes of steel wool at 3 FPS maximum. I am currently having fun with a corroded Enfield bore that is about to get the steel wool treatment just as soon as I find/buy some penetrating oil.

    Edited to add...

    If steel wool just puts your teeth on edge too much, buy some 8mm bronze or nylon brushes. For sure they will be tight, but it is what you need to get into the grooves.
    Damn the expense, use your turn signals today... and as a special favour, try doing it before you have two wheels in the next lane.

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    If steel wool just puts your teeth on edge too much, buy some 8mm bronze or nylon brushes. For sure they will be tight, but it is what you need to get into the grooves.
    Agreed. I recently resurrected two really crusty Turk Mauser bores without even having to use the steel wool. Its amazing how a combination of good old fashioned sweat, slightly oversized brushes, patches and oil will shine up an otherwise unspeakable mess.

    Keith

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    Two suggestions, one is after you are done brushing and patching, run a bore snake backward from the muzzle to the breach, making sure the boresnake has CLP on it..
    OR
    Use some JB bore past to "Lap" the barrel.
    Really both of the above would probably be a good plan.
    Just kickin it, slurping on a Brawndo and tuning up the Killdozer...

  8. #8
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    Kroil is a very good penetrating oil...not at all like WD-40. Kroil will work well if left in a bore over night..I spray a bunch of Kroil on a bore snake and pull it into the bore and leave it there over night...or longer. I used to cork the barrel and fill it up with Kroil but always made a big mess. I resist using the coiled spring stainless tornado brushes..but some bores that are really bad need to have one pushed slowly through the barrel. I slowly twist the cleaning rod as it goes through..it should spiral. That means it is getting into the grooves. I like a solvent..Hoppes and also will finish up with some JB's. If you have 2 cleaning rods you can use one for brushes and the other for patches. After one of the .30 cal brushes gets worn and loose I wrap half patches around it to clean out the loosened crud....many passes and patches..75 or a 100. The oversize 8mm brush is also a good option. As mentioned earlier, after cleaning out all of the oils and paste, with many patches..you can shoot about 20 rounds through the rifle and clean it while hot. If you can get your bore from the dark rough slightly pitted interior to the less dark and frosted look it will probably shoot OK. If the brush does not spiral it is sort of hit or miss in those lands...but some folks go so far as a cleaning rod, fine wool wrapped around a brush..the whole thing into a portable drill...this means you are now mad at the bore and sometimes that is necessary. I have been mad at a number of Finn bores and most of them give in.
    Kentucky Football will always suck except when they play Spurrier..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by assaultrecon28 View Post
    hey guys i just bought a polish m44 that looked like new on the outside and figured the bore would look the same way, wrong. after cleaning it its still dark and i shined a flashlight on the crown and its a little pitted. whenever i run patches through it it seems like the pitts are causing the patches to go through and leave little amounts of cloth behind. how can i get this bore clean without tiny pieces of patch getting left in it?
    Shine a light down the barrel from the muzzle. If you can see the pits (which you already stated you saw) then you can clean that bore till the day after doomsday and it will never get much better.

    In 80 or so Mosins, I have seen two like the one you describe. One was a 1921 Izhevsk Dragoon, all matching in some very nice wood. The other ,coincidentally, was a Polish M44. Both would shred patches just as you describe.

    It's not that either wouldn't shoot a round, but the cleanup process was like starting all over again every time you shot that gun.

    When you know the bore is heavily pitted, then you have nothing to loose by going with an abrasive process, as your last resort. I use scotch brite wrapped over the end of a worn out brass brush, with ATF (one of the base components of ED's RED).

    The first pass through the bore is very tight, and sometimes you have to push it through and remove and reinstall the brush, repeating this several times before you can actually pull the rod back through the bore. A stainless steel brush will also work.

    These are desperation measures and should never be tried as anything but a last resort when you KNOW the bore is badly damaged. I got rid of both of those guns I had with trashed bores. I would suspect they had very nice clean and dry bores, that some previous owner fired a fairly good amount of corrosive ammo through then left them uncleaned in a fairly humid environment for several years.

    That kind of damage is irreversible, cured only by a re bore or a reline, that can not be justified by the cost and value of the gun.

    regards
    badger

  10. #10
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    http://www.davidtubb.com/finalfinish.html Final Finish bore conditioning system
    Requires hand loading for 7.62x54R
    Bore needs to be "extreme cleaned and conditioned" prior to using.
    These bullets will polish out the bore and yield the best possible accuracy it is capable of. I've done quite a few guns with them and they work as advertised.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger View Post
    The other ,coincidentally, was a Polish M44.
    It's not a coincidence. Many of them are like that.


    I would suspect they had very nice clean and dry bores, that some previous owner fired a fairly good amount of corrosive ammo through then left them uncleaned in a fairly humid environment for several years.
    Not in the case of a Polish M44; this is a common problem. Many of them seem to have been stored by the Poles with some godawful crud in the barrels, that hardened into the most clean-resistant garbage I've ever encountered.

    My own was unissued, and essentially a brand-new gun on the outside. It wasn't pitted, thank God, but the final five inches or so from the crown were plugged with vile, rock-hard black and brown sewer-pipe filth that took me three hours of hard work to remove. I started with bronze brushes of varying sizes, then moved on to bore cleaner and CLP, over and over. Eventually I reached the point of desperation and did the unthinkable: I ran several patches of #600 emery cloth through the affected area, followed by crocus cloth, followed by more bore cleaner and CLP. At long last, cloth patches would pass through without dragging. So I finally did get the bore clean and smooth, but for a while I was seriously wondering if I'd done the right thing in buying it.

    Next day I took the gun to the range and shot a few rounds through it. As others have said, the hot gas, pressure and the bullet itself took care of any remaining crud. Today, the bore is perfect and mirror-bright, and the gun is the most accurate Mosin I own. But be warned by my experience. Before you buy a Polish Mosin, always check the bore, even if the gun is pristine and unissued. Not all of them are like mine was, but I've heard from enough other shooters to know that many of them are, and that they came that way right from Poland.

    That kind of damage is irreversible, cured only by a re bore or a reline, that can not be justified by the cost and value of the gun.
    In the case of an entire bore that's in the condition I described above, you're right. But if it's only partially cruddy, you may be able to clear it using the methods I've mentioned here. Whether you consider it worth the effort or not is your call.

  12. #12
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    Mine was pitted, period. Easily visible from the muzzle end. Not much in the way of any material or preservative will not melt almost instantly when slathered in lacquer thinner.

    You are not talking about a patch shredding PITTED bore, which is what the original poster stated he had and what I saw in my own two examples.

    I also do NOT advocate shooting any bore that has "crud" in it. Pressures rise dramatically and can be dangerous. The coefficient of friction of the bullet and bore is a critical factor in the pressure curve encountered during powder combustion.

    It's called a bore obstruction, and while you may get away with it, the mechanical stresses you place on the firearm could create a failure at some time in the future to someone you may not even know.

    To the OP, you should also be VERY VERY careful to not shoot and soft pointed reloads from such a bore. ONLY military ball ammo could withstandf the stresses involved in any increased bore friction for any reason. Its very easy to have a jacket separation, leaving the jacket in the bore. If the shooter does not realize this then the next round will be one you will never forget.

    I guarantee it.

    regards
    badger

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger View Post
    You are not talking about a patch shredding PITTED bore, which is what the original poster stated he had and what I saw in my own two examples.
    You are correct. I was talking specifically about my own, and similar, Polish M44s. My apologies for not making that sufficiently clear.

    I also do NOT advocate shooting any bore that has "crud" in it. Pressures rise dramatically and can be dangerous. The coefficient of friction of the bullet and bore is a critical factor in the pressure curve encountered during powder combustion.
    Correct again. You will notice that in my posting, I did not shoot the gun until the obstruction had been cleaned from the bore.

    It's called a bore obstruction, and while you may get away with it, the mechanical stresses you place on the firearm could create a failure at some time in the future to someone you may not even know.
    I understand what it's called. Which is why I do not -- and did not -- shoot my M44 until the bore was clear. Nor do I advocate anyone else doing so.

    Again, my apologies for not making myself sufficiently clear.

  14. #14
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    Konstanty I also must apologise for the forcefulness of my previous post.

    Over the last several years I have read on numerous occasions about bore obstructions due to jacket separation, when using commercial hunting bullets in reloads.

    Combined with the experience of shooting milsurp ammo and a novice learning the fine art of reloading, it can become a deadly combination of individually innocent circumstances.

    I may tick off a lot of people with this warning, but if I can save one shooter from the potentially disastrous consequences then it is worth it.

    A rifle is a machine that has a specific range of design tolerances that all combine to produce a controlled explosion and a projectile downrange.

    The sad thing about jacket separation is it gives you very little evidence of the occurrence. You get combustion, a projectile downrange, and recoil. Many people blast away and the small difference in the report and recoil, can easily go unnoticed.

    When that happens, the next round will be an event that you will remember to the day you no longer wake up in the morning.

    If you are shooting and the report seems different, or your projectile keyholes, or misses the target completely, that may be all the evidence you will get of the danger of firing the next round without a bore inspection to check for the jacket left in the bore.

    THE POTENTIAL FOR VERY SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH CAN NEVER BE UNDERESTIMATED.

    WHEN IN DOUBT, CHECK IT OUT.

    regards
    badger

  15. #15
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    well i got this m44 for 150$ so im not really complaining about a slightly pitted bore
    Keep your guns close and your Bible closer...

    a gun is a tool the same as a hammer, chainsaw, wrench etc.... its only as dangerous as the person holding it.

  16. #16
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    i really like foaming bore cleaner. sometimes it takes two or three uses do really get all the gunk out, but it does work.

  17. #17

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    Quite a co-incidence. Just took my Enfield out today to fire-lap the bore (my first time with that) that was pitted. That fire-lapping DOES work. I used bottles of Sweet's and tins of JB Bore Paste, but it didn't help the pittiing on that rifle (SMLE No1 Mk III - 1916). I even tried the over-night soakings with 4 or 5 different products, and used foaming bore scrubbers and lots of Hoppe's N0 9. After following the instructions for the 50 rounds - the barrel looked MUCH better. At least 50% better. There is still pitting, but the bore is not nearlly as dark as it was.

  18. #18
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    can you please elaborate to what "fire lapping" the bore is? thanks
    all i have tried so far is solvent with an 8mm brush and that helped some
    Keep your guns close and your Bible closer...

    a gun is a tool the same as a hammer, chainsaw, wrench etc.... its only as dangerous as the person holding it.

  19. #19

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    Sure. Fire lapping is a process that uses bullets inpregnated with abrasive powder. The set I bought from Midway is 50 bullets. There are 5 different groups of bullets (10 each) that have progressivly finer abrasive powder. You load these bullets up with a low level (starting charge) of powder, then fire them in your rifle.

    You have to scrub the bore after each 10 round shot string really well - at least two solvent patches and two dry patches, then fire the next string. Don't shoot for accuracy - it means nothing here. Clean it after you are done and I think you will be as pleased as I was. There is still pitting, but not nearly as bad as it was. Good Luck.

  20. #20
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    i wish i could do this but i dont know anything about reloading or own any components
    Keep your guns close and your Bible closer...

    a gun is a tool the same as a hammer, chainsaw, wrench etc.... its only as dangerous as the person holding it.

  21. #21

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    I tried sending a private message, and it didn't work. If you don't reload, if I were you I would take 50 military rounds and those bore lapping bullets to a SMALL gunshop in your area and have them pull the miltary ammo, dump the powder and reload the lapping bullets into those cases with a STARTING LOAD powder charge of any listed powder. Chances are that either the shop or somebody they know would do this for a very small fee.

    You'd have to provide the bullets. They are $34.99 (Item#513-887) from Midway. I wouldn't waste my time with the bigger gun shops because usually they are snobs and are going to treat you like dirt. Try to find a small, old gunshop. I'd say to find a place who would load these bullets first before you order the bullets.

    Again, this won't make your barrel new, and if it's REALLY bad it may not help much. My guess is that it will help some. It's worth a try. Again, good luck!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by assaultrecon28 View Post
    can you please elaborate to what "fire lapping" the bore is? thanks
    all i have tried so far is solvent with an 8mm brush and that helped some
    What kind of solvent are you using? Some are no good for rust/pitting at all. You want a good penetrating oil, not a solvent.

  23. #23
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    i used some potent smelling stuff called butches bore and some hoppes elite
    Keep your guns close and your Bible closer...

    a gun is a tool the same as a hammer, chainsaw, wrench etc.... its only as dangerous as the person holding it.

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