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Yugoslav Mauser rifle (post WWII) crest study

80K views 71 replies 43 participants last post by  P_Krammer 
#1 · (Edited)

Yugo Crest Study​

I snagged this carving image off an auction site. It sold for a pretty fair amount. I've no idea who the winner was. If you're here and object to my using it, lemme know and I'll yank it. If you just would like recognition, sing out!:thumbsup:
Many here are aware I have been trying to run a study on the various crests stamped upon the receiver rings of Yugoslavia's post WWII military Mauser rifles. I was invited to post it here for a sticky some little while ago.

My apologies for not getting it posted sooner but, I have been much occupied otherwise. It has become clear to me that I cannot get this all posted at one time so I'm going to make this an introduction, present what I'm trying to do, hope to accomplish, and give some idea what I have learned so far. I will present the bare bones here now so we can get this anchored, and then I will build on it as I can. Then with your help, maybe we can learn more about these rifles and perhaps how to better judge when and where they were made/reworked.
Thank you and the owners of this forum for extending me this opportunity.
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I've observed that there is a wide range of variety in the crests applied to post WWII Yugoslavian Military Mauser rifles. This is due to the fact that the tools used to make these impressions were individually hand cut by different artisans. The many variations come, in part at least, from the difference in skill levels and the whim of the maker. There may have been a difference in available patterns as well because there are one of two major design characteristic visible in every crest.
reference: I had this comment in an email from Branko (Bogdanovic- Author of "Serbian & Yugoslav Mauser Rifles," Zastava Historian and researcher for the Milkitary Museum- Belgrade) ... First of all, the crest design itself was not strictly regulated. Separate tools were made in each factory and workshop and crest shape depended on toolmaker's skill. The same applies to the inscriptions as well. They were all either engraved or stamped. (As in Hadzici's TRZ.5) Elektropenciling only started to be applied for the first time on the semiautomatic rifle PAP M1959. (sks) Branko
The crest design under discussion is the Post WWII Communist crest applied to the receiver rings of Yugoslavia's Mauser rifles. It is basically well known- 5 torches (a 6th was added in 1963 but this version will not appear on our Mausers) w/in a wreath of wheat stalks crossed at the bottom. These wreath stems should officially (I believe) be crossed left over right. But the ends can be seen either way about equally on the stamps. Whether this is the result of carelessness or perhaps dyslexia on the part of the tool makers or variations in available patterns is unknown.
Concerning patterns, there appears to have been, as noted above, two distinctly different design variations available to the tool makers. Details may change: whether the crest be crude or refined, the number of grain seeds represented, the size and consistency of the star, the wreath, the arrangement of the torches and their flames, all details may vary. But, there will consistently be one of two features. The crest will either be circular, round as a circle or, ovoid as in an elongated circle or 'egg shaped.'

So far, I have only identified a few crests as being specific to certain shops. One example is the small, refined crest seen on the earlier Kragujevac (factory 44) rifles. These are notable by being smaller than most crests seen and very finely made. This crest is seen on 24/47s marked 3AVOD 44 which was replaced with the familiar Serbian Cyrillic ПРЕДУЗЕЋЕ (PREDUZECE) 44 stamp in Sept 1947 so we know it was used prior to that date. I have not seen another crest on the 3ДVOD (ZAVOD) 44 rifles but that crest does appear, with others, on later rifles produced there. It is my guess that this finely made stamp was the first in use at Kragujevac. So far, I have not been able to catalog the other Kragujevac crests. Another factor affecting time of use there would be when the use of the Latin script "PREDUZECE" first began to be used. I cannot say for sure when that was. If any here can say, please do.

There are other crests unique to a specific shop. These are some particularly crude crests seen on Hadzici's TRZ.5. By association, there's a crest identified with shop TR137 (location unknown) while not identical to a TRZ.5 crest, was undoubtedly made to the same drawing and perhaps may reasonably be believed to have been made by the same hand. In either case, that may also suppose a nearness in geographical location to each other.

There's a well detailed crest soundly identified with shop RADIONICA 124 (location unknown). So far it is the only one so identified with that shop. But this same crest appears on a RAD 145 rifle.

I also have two apparently identical crests but on a PRED 44 and RAD145 rifle, respectively. There are a number of crests cross represented. Each tool was cut by hand. Can two tools be so nearly identical? Considering the roughness apparent in the details- look at the stars, wheat stalks, especially the grains representation, banner, torch base and flames, date--- none are exactly or even remotely consistent--- I would say not. So I don't think we can say we have a number of identical tools provided to different shops by the same maker, except perhaps in the case of the three similar crude TRZ.5/TR137 crests (so far).
My best guess about that is that a rifle was first reworked, and crested, at one shop, and then later reworked at another who then placed there stamps upon the rifle. I'm open to suggestions. Any and all information is welcome. I do intend working this into an article to be presented for publication. If any are concerned about information being so presented, or want recognition for any images used, please let me know.

So it appears we have a lot of cross comparing to do and determining what it may mean. Each tool was cut by hand. Can two tools be so nearly identical? Considering the roughness apparent in the details- look at the stars, none are exactly or even remotely even and square- I would say not. So I don't think we can say we have a number of identical tools provided to different shops by the same maker, except perhaps in the case of the three similar crude TRZ.5/TR137 crests (so far).

Below I will post some crests I have so far cataloged. Then some I have not pegged.
A note on my images. They have come, often, from you and members of other forums, some were lifted from auction sites and some are/were my own. I will not try to identify each owner of the crests. Y'all know who you are. Feel free to sing out if you want to claim credit. If someone recognizes their crest and does not want it posted, contact me and I'll take it down.

Why do this? One, I have an "enquiring mind" and just want to know. To add to our knowledge base. To maybe help identify otherwise unknown details about a rifle. By example we can now surmise, if not positively state, that two rifles with no manufacturer's code well may have been done at TRZ.5. Maybe we can, in time, narrow a crest to period of use such as the 3AVOD 44 stamp to help date rifles. Maybe to track a weapon through it's refurb/repair course. By example, we know a lot of 24/47s went through (at least) a second rebuild before going into final storage. Maybe we can say where both operations were done? Who knows. I can say Branko has little interest or no info to share so we're pretty much on our own here. That's ok. We found TRZ.5 on our own, didn't we?:crossfingers:

These are identified RAD 124 crests on different rifles. I have more identical so identified.


This is on a block font, hyphened TRZ-5 mod 98. I believe this seldom seen shop identifier to be a very early type. This may be one of the first crests applied to post war Yugo Mauser rifles. It is notable by its crudeness and roughness. The Block font, hyphened TRZ-5 stamp is, I would say, extremely rare. I only have two examples. "Moconfed"s below makes a third. Each has had this same crest.


The top of this group of three (below) is on an identified script font TRZ.5. The bottom two are from rifles unmarked as to manufacturer. Close examination will reveal variations in each crest indication each was from a different tool. They are crude or perhaps merely simplified. Were these made by the same maker? The bottom two appear to be a little for finely made than the top. Could it be that the drawing used was what was crude and not the tool maker's skill?


The left crest here (below) is on a TR137 rifle. It is similar but not identical to the one on right or any of the others of the three above. Clearly crudely made. By the, or one of the, makers above? Or perhaps simply to the same drawing? Were these crests made in close geographical location to each other? Other than TRZ.5, none of these other shop's locations are known (or the knowledge restricted).

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This is all for now. I'll add to it as time allow. Please add anything you can. Even if you merely have a crest already represented, plurality matters. The more crests we can ascribe to a shop, the greater the weight of evidence that it belonged to one shop or another. That could help explain the cases of isolated duplicated crests attached to different shop marked rifles.
Thanks for your help.
'nug (Jim)

PS: PRED 44 coming soon...
(having difficulties with this new fangled image manager... :sorry::confused: :mad)
 
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#2 ·
Fantastic work Nug, it is now a "sticky" as promised, thanks for making the information resulting from all of your hard work available here. Okay everyone, start dragging out the Yugos and posting any information you can add, Nug deserves a lot of applause (as well as a helping hand) for his efforts. :)
 
#3 · (Edited)
Gonna throw this out there...

I have been collecting the 24/47s for a few years now and I have several variations in my collection... additionally (over the last few months) I have kept an eye on rifles I have seen pop up from time to time. I have noticed a trend that I think warrants mentioning... I have been keeping notes on the serial #s that pop up on the Rad 145s and the Rad 124s...

Of the seven I have been able to photo document, all have had an 'N' prefix...
N 5** Rad 145; N 11** Rad 145; N 13** Rad 145; N 16** Rad 124; N 21** Rad 124; N 22** Rad 124; N 33** Rad 124

This almost looks like they were made at the same location... at some point between rifle N 13** and N 16** the Rad number was changed from 145 to 124... I dont know if this observation would hold if Yugo converted K98s with Rad 145 and Rad 124 markings were thrown in, but I'd like to find out.

Additionally, I have noticed a similar pattern with the TR137 and Trz. 5 rifles... they seem to start with the "R" prefix
R05** TR 137; R10** TR 137; R13** TR137; R20** (unmarked); R27** TRZ-5; R29** TRZ-5

I know there are a lot more of these rifles out there than the 13 rifles I have referenced here, and I would like to see if anyone can find examples that contradict these suggestions. We know that the Zavod 44 marking was changed in 1947, maybe then or at some other time the others were changed too.
 
#65 ·
Gonna throw this out there...

I have been collecting the 24/47s for a few years now and I have several variations in my collection... additionally (over the last few months) I have kept an eye on rifles I have seen pop up from time to time. I have noticed a trend that I think warrants mentioning... I have been keeping notes on the serial #s that pop up on the Rad 145s and the Rad 124s...

Of the seven I have been able to photo document, all have had an 'N' prefix...
N 5** Rad 145; N 11** Rad 145; N 13** Rad 145; N 16** Rad 124; N 21** Rad 124; N 22** Rad 124; N 33** Rad 124

This almost looks like they were made at the same location... at some point between rifle N 13** and N 16** the Rad number was changed from 145 to 124... I dont know if this observation would hold if Yugo converted K98s with Rad 145 and Rad 124 markings were thrown in, but I'd like to find out.

Additionally, I have noticed a similar pattern with the TR137 and Trz. 5 rifles... they seem to start with the "R" prefix
R05** TR 137; R10** TR 137; R13** TR137; R20** (unmarked); R27** TRZ-5; R29** TRZ-5

I know there are a lot more of these rifles out there than the 13 rifles I have referenced here, and I would like to see if anyone can find examples that contradict these suggestions. We know that the Zavod 44 marking was changed in 1947, maybe then or at some other time the others were changed too.
Here , sir, is my (hicksjim7) contribution: My PAUNOHNUA 145 Mod.98/48 has s/n N1130.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Not that one MoConfed. I'd remember that "5".

Interesting observation on the serial numbers. Unfortunately, I hadn't tracked those with my crests. As for changing the shop identifier, I don't know. Kragujevac changed their code name, yes, but there number- 44- remained the same.
Branko gives these shops, TRZ.5, VR.69, RAD124, RAD145, & TR.137 time of service as 1945 - 1991 and location unknown. We've located TRZ.5 and know it, at least parts of the complex, were in operation well past 1991. Exactly when the TRZ.5 designator was dropped I can't say. (don't know).
So we really know nothing of the other shops. I'm hoping we can turn up something on them.

Btw. Xygorak? My TRZ.5 rifle's serial prefix is the letter "R".
 
#6 ·
I'm a yugo newbie so I'm not up to speed on the location of all the ID marks. Were would I look for the shop ID? I have a M48 , A76133. Crest is different than any posted so far. The crest has the number "29X11943" in the banner below the flames. It appears to be very well done. I'll dig out my macro lens and post a photo.
 
#7 · (Edited)
If it is an M48 it will probably have the same shop ID as all the other M48s and most of the M24/47s Preduceze 44 (which may appear as ПРЕДУЗЕЋЕ 44) If you look on the left side of the receiver you should see that stamped into the metal. The "29XI1943" is a date... November 29, 1943 and this refers to the establishment of the new Yugoslav state (Democratic Federal Yugoslavia).. later this name was changed to Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia (both names referenced in wikipedia article)... I believe the latter is the name referenced on your rifle, it is to the left of the workshop stamp... and is shown in abbreviated form as ФНРЈ (I think this could be more directly translated to Federal National Republic of Yugoslavia (Federativna Narodna Republika Jugoslavija) 'narodna' referring to 'nation' or 'national' rather than 'people'... and this seems to be the translation Branko used in his book...I'd go with the latter over the wiki info.
 
#8 ·
I purchased a Yugo 8MM several years ago. It is a 44. The M24/47 is stamped on the left side of the bolt ring. The crest is very lightly stamped on top of the bolt ring. (only the top of the crest appears and fades to nothing torward the bottom of where the rest of the crest should be) On the right side of the bolt ring the serial number is stamped starting with a large number 3 then some space and the smaller numbers 6121. The same number is stamped on top of the straight bolt handle. The left side of the stock near the butt is stamped 1.TRZ, and beneath that 6121. This gun appears new and unissued due to the pristine condtion of the stock and finish of the metal and stock.
 
#11 ·


Figured I would join in and let you take a gander at my 24/47. My wife bought this for me for Christmas a few years ago. If you look closely at the picture with the model designation you can just barely make out a bit of the original markings to the left of the M in M.24/47. This is one of my favorite rifles, it just has a good feel to it.
 
#14 ·
Thanks! I only have one other TR 137 crest. (alas, not my rifle) it looks as if it could well be the same stamp. I hadn't recorded the owner's name in this case. It ain't your rifle too, is it
The one on the left.
 
#22 ·
#24 ·
Thanks for the VR 69! That one is different, distinct unto itself.

These crude ones are driving me bonkers.

We have not seen (that I know of) any such from Kragujevac (factory 44). We also know they had a finely made one from the earliest 3AVOD 44 examples.

The crude ones (noted so far IIRC) come from TRZ.5 (Hadzici), TR137 & rifles with no manufacturers mark. I have maybe 5 different tool stamps of this type which I refer to as the "ovoid." I have one crude stamp of the round type on a block font TRZ5.
I'll get together a group pick of the different stamps of this type. What I cannot make up my mind about and have no evidence of any kind is whether these crude stamps are the work of one tool make of limited skill or one crude drawing distributed to the different shops. I do not include these as a separate type since they closely, if crudely, follow the one. I still believe (again, wholly unsupported) that these crude crests represent the earliest crests used. I base this on the belief that more refined tools would have been desired as soon as makers of sufficient skill could be found.
 
#25 ·
Hey Nug heres a pic of my two TR 137 rifles side by side..The top is R0595 and the bottom is R1265..Both quite diff from each other..Most notable among many differences is the left over right Vs right over left of the Wheat stalks and the number of Wheat heads or "seeds"
 

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#27 ·
Another unusual feature of them is that the "M24/47" is stamped on top of the receiver ring beneath the crest instead of on the lower left side of the receiver ring.

 
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