System Carle
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Thread: System Carle

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    Default System Carle

    Has anyone here ever actually seen a Carle rifle? (I'm sure JPS will jump in here) Apparently just over 200,000 were made. I guess just not that many survived the last 140 or so years?

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    Russian needle gun?

    for about 20 years someone offered me on oft these, but i don't buy it...

    yes i know, I'm a stu*#$ /%§%&

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    I love and hate this forum when you guys start doing that. Somebody pulls out a wierd prototype and a couple lines of description, and I've never heard of it, but someone always shows up with meticulously cited sources and an example...

    I used to be baffled by the variations of Mauser, but since I got the hang of that, this is the place to be for the real neat odd stuff.

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    A "weird prototype"? Although short-lived as most needle rifles, the Carle (Karl) was made in large quantities and saw battle use against the Turks at the Caucasus front.

    And yes, I do have several books, describing this system.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Nick,

    What other books have info on the Carle rifle? I know Das Zundnadelgewehr does (still trying to find a copy for sale).

    http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj20...op_Carle_Rifle

    Perhaps now that I have a needle rifle it's time for a new holy grail?
    Last edited by wyowillys46; 12-07-2007 at 12:04 PM.

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    On the one hand I'm fascinated, the other I'm now disappointed I want yet another gun I'll never see or be willing to afford. And here I thought a Werndl was an obscure want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyowillys46 View Post
    What other books have info on the Carle rifle?
    One of the books I have is listed in the bibliography of the article - "Evolution of Small Arms" by Fyodorov. All drawings in the article are taken from this book. Another Russian book that I have is written by Markevich. In English the rifle is mentioned in J. Lugs' book "Firearms - Past and Present" (original is in Czech). I have a few more books briefly describing the rifle.

    The article by Stan Zelinski sums it up pretty well (except for the spelling of the Caucasus Mountain :D )
    Last edited by Nick; 12-07-2007 at 04:55 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    I did a quick inventory of my library for books on the Carle/Karl 1867 and found five books describing it. Here are scans from two of them in English. Sorry for the low quality on one of them, but the 300 kB size limit is killing me...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karl 1867.jpg Carle 1867.jpg
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Default Russian Karle needle ignition

    Gentlemen,

    Incidentally we are looking for a Model 1867 Karle as a future project after completion of our Fucile da Fanteria Carcano M/60-67 to conclude handloading of all needle ignition weapons of the major powers.

    The Carcano cartridge is a challenge as it is self-obturating.

    Our ultimate goal is the British copy of the Dreyse rifle.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

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    Mr. West,

    I've been talking to a couple of gentleman in Germany regarding Needle Rifles and one of them mentioned your name regarding the article you wrote on the Zundnadel-Jaegerbusche M/54. Great work.

    Would you happen to have any of the dimensions on the 1855 bullet? I've got some rough dimensions (diameter and length) and plan on having a mold made.

    Thanks,
    Morgan

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    Default Dreyse bullet dimensions

    Morgan,

    You requested bullet dimensions of the M/55. There were two types of M/55 bullets. We have created CAD drawings and can send you dimensions of one of them if you supply your e-mail address.

    Out of curiosity, which model Dreyse do you own?

    The great one to shoot is the M/57 Karabiner - plenty of muzzle blast and flash.

    We have captured interesting footage of shooting our Dreyse F/60, due to the clever mating cone arrangement it reveals direction of gas flow directed upwards well away from the shooter's eyes and dispels all the incorrect myths that the system was dangerous to shoot. Furthermore, have one muzzle view of the M/55 bullet leaving the sabot. Can send to you along with dimesions??

    Regards,

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

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    Bump.

    Guy and Leonard,

    Just wondering if you're still ok with sending a CAD file of the 1855 bullets.

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    Default M/55 bullet dimensions

    Sent CAD drawings a few days ago with attachments of Dreyse F/60 shooting showing direction of breech gas flow, also captured frame of bullet (Langblei M/55) separating from sabot just leaving muzzle.

    Very surprised you have not received them.

    Shall check your address and send again.

    Regards,

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

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    Default Dreyse bullet CAD drawing

    Morgan,

    Have sent everything to your latest address.

    Regards,

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

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    There's a full page reference to the Carle rifle in Military Bolt Action Rifles 1841-1918 by DB Webster. ISBN 0-8855-004-9 published by the Museum Restoration Service in 1993.

    A handy volume, if a bit slim.

    Peter

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    gentleman

    the carle rifle is a rare bird, in the last 20 years I remember only one italian carcano needle rifle in germany. it stands for +/-2000 DM but not for a long time.
    around 1997 we have seen here a small lot M 1868 krnka rifle , the successor of the carle and a made from the same muzzle loading gun as I remember rigth.
    the dealer told me that it was an import from russia, you may have heard this story's about depots there.
    I was playing with magtech 24 gauge brass, cut to 40 mm in one this rifles but the extractor dont work very well. the original round had a very large rim.
    coming back to this problem: some times later I talk with an austrian colector with a rare krnka carbine and he told me he found it in finland on a hunting trip and they where used by finish national guard in the 19. century.
    maybe finland is worth a closer look.
    Last edited by feuerwerker; 01-17-2008 at 07:14 AM.

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    I think there are molds for several of the German needle rifle projectiles offered from time to time on: www.egun.de; search: zündnadelgewehr

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    Currently a rifle is for sale at egun Germany

    http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=1989622

    Carle was a businessman from Hamburg/germany. This ex austrian rifle was converted in Suhl/germany.
    In the war of 1866 a lot of austrian M/1854 rifles where captured. This was a conversion trial.
    Last edited by genkideskan; 11-19-2008 at 02:47 PM.

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    I'm completely speechless. And sorely tempted to try bidding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wyowillys46 View Post
    Has anyone here ever actually seen a Carle rifle? (I'm sure JPS will jump in here) Apparently just over 200,000 were made. I guess just not that many survived the last 140 or so years?
    apparently they were exstensively used by the caucasian forces in central asia

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    Hello Gents,

    Interesting thread with lots of excellent input. Years ago figuring that I had to draw a line somewhere, and based on the fact that most black-powder cartridge rifles saw some type of service in some form during WWI, I drew the line in the sand right after needle-rifles. The only exception I have made in the last 30+ years of collecting has been a single Chassepot I purchased with bayonet that was priced extremely low.

    During that same period I have come across or been offered one (K)Carle and two Carcano needle-rifles for sale. (I have sources that spell the name with a C or a K?) During the same time frame I would estimate approximately a half dozen Dreyse needle-rifles? So while I could have acquired one, I passed. The price was high enough at the time that I didn't want to buy it strictly as an investment.

    There's not much more I can add in terms of input with Nick and others providing the source info above. The sources I have regarding the Carle have been covered above. I also have a couple of sources that mention the use of the Carle as a front-line weapon, but am not at home right now.

    Another interesting thread about a little known weapon!

    Warmest regards,

    JPS

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    I have handled one it the Dutch army museum depot. I can tell you it was very difficult to place it back on the rack. The conversion is extremely well made and the self cocking action is handy and compact compared to its contemporaries.
    My own virtual museum http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

    Check out our Youtube channel "Bloke on the Range", guns done the British way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FABIAN23 View Post
    I have handled one it the Dutch army museum depot. I can tell you it was very difficult to place it back on the rack. The conversion is extremely well made and the self cocking action is handy and compact compared to its contemporaries.
    fabian can you explain the bolt manipulation? you push the handle forward which cocks it, the work like a normal bot action. but why doesnt the bolt handle fold back down when you are drwaing it back to insert the cartridge?

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    Here is something from a very rare 19-th century Russian manual... The actual drawings are rather large size.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karle 1.jpg Karle 2.jpg Karle 3.jpg
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    I'm trying to remember exactly how it worked. I have a funny feeling it was actualy cocked when the bolt was closed after inserting the cartridge, with the handle being initially folded out just to be able to work the bolt back and forward, I think it was retained folded out by the leaf spring we see in Nick's drawing.
    My own virtual museum http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

    Check out our Youtube channel "Bloke on the Range", guns done the British way.

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    You cock the rifle as you raise the handle.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    You are the expert :D I was trying to figure it out from your parts diagram.

    I'm guessing it only stays cocked when the bolt is opened due to the handle, and likewise the bolt handle is held raised by the spring tension from the stricker assembly. The sear then holds back the stricker as normal once the bolt is closed and the handle lowered. I was amazed that the system was contained in such a small assembly.

    It's my holy grail too......
    My own virtual museum http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/

    Check out our Youtube channel "Bloke on the Range", guns done the British way.

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    Oh, no! Not an expert by any means, I haven't even held the rifle in my hands... only in my wet dreams...
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    here is a picture of an actual surving karle cartridge
    http://1.1.1.1/bmi/i381.photobucket....MALI/1-186.jpg

    courtesy of fede on the iaa forum
    Last edited by cyten; 07-07-2012 at 09:37 AM.

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    Link doesn't work. Could you post the picture here, not just the link?
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Click image for larger version.

Name:	1-186.jpg
Views:	23
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ID:	562916

    here ya go.

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    Very nice, thanks!
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    no problem! nick, any chance you have any pics or drawings on how the cartridges were packed?

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    No, I only have an old drawing of the cartridge itself.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karle Cartridge (2).jpg
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Click image for larger version.

Name:	IMG_0014.jpg
Views:	55
Size:	324.8 KB
ID:	1776833
    Always try to find new "Militairy Bolt-action rifles (Europian/blackpowder)"

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    Man! This is torture! Show us more, tell us more!
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Hi Nick, bougt this one last week from a man who needs money for te repair his car. Never thougt he wil sell this one to me. Think a good find? :-)

    Tommorow i wil make more and better photo's.
    Always try to find new "Militairy Bolt-action rifles (Europian/blackpowder)"

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    No, that's a bad rifle and you should dispose of it by selling it to me.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Ha ha, yes maybe a good idea? (NOT!)

    Im glad to have this one in my collection now, must eat dry bread for a while.
    Always try to find new "Militairy Bolt-action rifles (Europian/blackpowder)"

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    you've also bought yourself a responsibility of taking many photos and videos of the piece for us all to enjoy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaarok View Post
    On the one hand I'm fascinated, the other I'm now disappointed I want yet another gun I'll never see or be willing to afford. And here I thought a Werndl was an obscure want.
    I always think that way too, and yet:
    Click image for larger version.

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    It's not pretty but it's a Werndl...
    Next free day I hope to have ammo for it too.
    Turning relics into near-relics since 2005.

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    Here a few pic's of the Carle. Maybe someone know about the regiment stamps?


    Click image for larger version.

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ID:	1779610Click image for larger version.

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ID:	1779650
    Last edited by Peter96; 12-08-2016 at 01:54 PM.
    Always try to find new "Militairy Bolt-action rifles (Europian/blackpowder)"

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    I will post your pix on the Russian forum and will ask.

    Would it be possible to show the bolt disassembled?
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не п'є - то вiн або хворий, або падлюка." - Невідомий українець

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