Results 1 to 44 of 44
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default Vz.24 P Series stock characters

    Guys,
    Picked up a nice P series from a buddy here, and the characters on the stock are below. Non import, matching rifle. I believe this stock paint has been observed before, except 53/11. My guess is Chinese. The rifle shows carry wear, but no shooting at all. Any help is appreciated.
    Regards,
    Hambone
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Lucky you! The painted number over a number is known to be a Japanese Navy marking on Type I rifles and I think on Japanese VZ24 rifles too. It seems the Navy got the short end of Arisaka distribution and had to buy rifles from Italy and Czechoslovakia. The marking, I'm guessing, means something like ship #11, rifle #45 but that is not known for sure.

    Both the Japanese and Chinese bought and used P series VZ24 rifles. The Japanese captured a lot in China from the Chinese (before delivery?) and used them, only to give them back at the end of the war. The Chinese often stamped the stocks. Japanese P series VZ24 rifles are sometimes identified only by the Japanese characters painted on the original sling.

    The two small stock stamps are first and third, or inspector #1 and inspector #3. The large stamp is as yet unidentified. I suppose it could be a Japanese rifle that was stamped by the Chinese after the war but there seems to be no way to prove Japanese ownership or use. That is, unless your serial number is P49938 or P49940. My receiver and stock serial number is P49939.

    Yours looks like a vet bringback. I heard a story that a lot of them were found in new condition in a warehouse in the Phillipines. Mine has no import marks but could have missed being stamped by the importer. Or, it could be a Korean War vet bringback.

    Here's my Chinese P series:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese VZ24 1.JPG   Chinese VZ24 2.JPG   Chinese VZ24 3.JPG   Chinese VZ24 4.JPG   Chinese VZ24 5.JPG   Chinese VZ24 6.JPG  

    Chinese VZ24 7.JPG   Chinese VZ24 8.JPG   Chinese VZ24 9.JPG   Chinese VZ24 10.JPG  
    Last edited by geladen; 03-14-2010 at 11:47 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    Thanks Geladen, that explains it. I have a c series too and it had the Vz.24 Kanji sling on it. Cool stock markings on your rifle. More pics:
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    You have a VERY nice Looking Japanese rifle. 513XX is not that far from 499XX, but who knows where mine has been?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Arizona Moutains
    Posts
    1,000

    Default VZ 24 "P"

    Nice gun Ham.I posted this picture of this early "P" block sometime back but it was lost in the program changes. When these things are nice, they are nice. No sling or stock markings on this gun, though I have had them with marked slings before.JH
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails vz24p3361 007..jpg  

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    Tks Geladen, great rifle as well. Haak, you are right. What is unusual is all I have seen, both my c and p, seem to have that wear or age to the receiver top, just like yours. Like sweat or handling or carrying wore the blue there. What is your serial range Haak?
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Arizona Moutains
    Posts
    1,000

    Default

    Ham this particular rifle is P-3361. There is evidence if you look at a lot of these rifles that they were stacked on their sides, perhaps on pallets or something. Most of the staining on the "C" block guns runs down the sides of the stocks and metal parts. Some will show signs of drip stains,that would not have happened if they had been stored vertically.The new internals and bolt faces of some rifles suggest they were fired little if at all. Much of the wear being abuse after the war in the USA. The guns that made it to China did not fare as well. JH

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Arizona Moutains
    Posts
    1,000

    Default VZ24 "C"

    Ham, most of the "C" blocks I have owned have had the worn/rust or "patina". This one (C57794) does not however, having a near factory new finish on the receiver. The bolt body has a bit of "patina" though. Again no sling or stock markings on this particular rifle. JH
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCF1014..jpg  

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    That's a beauty Haak. My c looks exactly like the p. My best is moisture, as you ID'd, probably from palletized rifles stacked outside or something, wet. That will do that on finish and the points of wear or oxidation are where they would be handled. This p depicted shows evidence of water or something dripping on it. My bet would be as you say. These were moved and palletize/stacked at some point, stored poorly or in humidity. This p shows no evidence of firing, no firing ring on the bolt face, bore is mint.
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Arizona Moutains
    Posts
    1,000

    Default

    "This p shows no evidence of firing, no firing ring on the bolt face, bore is mint." Just the way we like them! JH

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,113

    Default

    That rifle was Carried by Yamamoto at the battle of Okinawa !!! And it's documented!! No really, I'm the bud who sold him the rifle... I'm curious as well to what the markings mean..

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    CT, South Florida
    Posts
    592

    Default P Series

    Here's mine. Really nice condition & was supposedly brought back from Japan. The only Czech proof is on the bolt knob. No Czech acceptance on the receiver. Looks to have very little use. BW, BB

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jap VZ 24 005..jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	117.4 KB 
ID:	295648Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jap VZ 24 001..jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	23.2 KB 
ID:	295649Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jap VZ 24 002..jpg 
Views:	25 
Size:	18.1 KB 
ID:	295650Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jap VZ 24 004..jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	109.2 KB 
ID:	295651Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jap VZ 24 003..jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	24.6 KB 
ID:	295652
    Always buying & trading for pistols w/capture papers!!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,437

    Default

    Nice!
    I am still looking for a P or C code asian contract export rifle. They are probably the single best source of excellent bored matching vz-24's in the US market. They commonly have original slings with them also! some of the P codes were snatched up by the Czech army and ultimately saw service in nazi hands. I looked at one last year in an Alaska gunshow that had a badly bent, and ever worse restraightened matching bolt. ; < { I would have bought the rifle for the pristine bore at the price($245.00) but for the what I believe to be a fake german swastika stamped in the stock. the rifle had been german hands no doubt, but the imprint of the kraut eagle was much too crisp for the condition of the wood. I knew the seller well and he would have never have defaced it. (his feeble attempt at restraightening the bolt brings into question wether just anybody should be allowed to work on a welder) sadly somebody else bought on the second day of the show before i had the chance to barter or negotiate the price.
    gil
    Last edited by gil; 03-14-2010 at 07:16 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    It's interesting but most of these are in the same condition. They look to be nice, used little, perhaps stored poorly. I think they were policed up, I have heard multiple times, Philipines, then were souveniered in large numbers. Probably stacked in a warehouse where they sat, brought home by troops. Over the last 25 years I've seen many more of these p and c series Vz.s than straight up Czech lion crest rifles in nice matching original shape.
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Arizona Moutains
    Posts
    1,000

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    It's interesting but most of these are in the same condition. They look to be nice, used little, perhaps stored poorly. I think they were policed up, I have heard multiple times, Philipines, then were souveniered in large numbers. Probably stacked in a warehouse where they sat, brought home by troops. Over the last 25 years I've seen many more of these p and c series Vz.s than straight up Czech lion crest rifles in nice matching original shape.
    Agreed.Three line address VZ-23/24 rifles have always been a lot easier than straight up lion's. Most really nice lions seem to be reworked in some way or another by the Germans,though they do exist.I have owned a fair number of the E/Lion/38 "P" series 1937 guns that came back from the European theater that were quite nice as well, on par with the upper crust of 98k rifles in condition, as well as a number of different German reworks. I have posted these pictures of this well worn Lion before the purge here. It is very thin on finish but a "jake" gun in every way with a near mint bore. I just love the 24's! JH
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Picture 305..jpg   Picture 306..jpg   Picture 310..jpg  

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Austn Tx
    Posts
    4,182

    Default

    I've got P/49999 - matched metal, perfect bore, NIM, bubba'ed (now repaced) stock...
    "There is no pleasure in having nothing to do. The fun is having lots to do and not doing it'"

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    60 numbers after mine! Did your original stock have any stamps or indications of Chinese or Japanese use?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Austn Tx
    Posts
    4,182

    Default

    The stock was sanded about 1/4 deep per side and then it was glooped with polyurathane..I kept it just because it sort of belongs with the action, but it's toast, the recoil lug bolt and nut stick out of each side it was sanded so bad.
    No interal numbers or any other markings anywhere.
    I've got a German altered stock I display it in, and a shooter grade stock I use on it for range work.
    It's a stone tack driver BTW...my most accurate Mauser, and that's saying something as I've had some German BCD4's that were VERY good, but the Czech is almost hole in hole on a calm day..my problem is the rear sight notch is microscopic.
    I had to install a scout mount and LER scope to find out how it shoots..
    In a way I'm glad the stock was toasted because now I feel no guilt shooting an otherwise matching rifle..
    "There is no pleasure in having nothing to do. The fun is having lots to do and not doing it'"

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    368

    Default

    Here’s one I picked up a couple of years ago. The seller had this and another rifle (matching pre-war 98k) that supposedly came out of the closet. It is a p series, but it does have the E Lion Czech acceptance. However, it isn’t import marked and it is matching. It also has the kanji marked sling. When I took it apart to clean I couldn’t get the sling of fit was so fragile so I just left it.















  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    SE Kansas
    Posts
    125

    Default

    Hmmmmm, I was lead to believe the P indicated Police use. I will have to go through my notes again to see where that information came from. My recent SOG VZ24 in 7mm has the P and another number other than the serial number on the left side of the receiver. There is also a rather long number on the right side of the stock that I still have no explanation for. The rifle itself has proved to be a keeper with a solid stock, no pits in the exterior of the metal and a bright shiny bore after repeated firing and cleaning cycles. And it shoots minute of aim groups at 100 yards with Chilean surplus ammunition. I am very pleased with the rifle. I wish I could learn more about it's history.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sgthurley View Post
    Hmmmmm, I was lead to believe the P indicated Police use. I will have to go through my notes again to see where that information came from. My recent SOG VZ24 in 7mm has the P and another number other than the serial number on the left side of the receiver. There is also a rather long number on the right side of the stock that I still have no explanation for. The rifle itself has proved to be a keeper with a solid stock, no pits in the exterior of the metal and a bright shiny bore after repeated firing and cleaning cycles. And it shoots minute of aim groups at 100 yards with Chilean surplus ammunition. I am very pleased with the rifle. I wish I could learn more about it's history.
    Your rifle should have a bent bolt and a flat bottom to the bolt knob. If so, it is a VZ24JC, a lightened version of the VZ24. The were ordered by China but the order was not paid, then rebarreled and sold to Brazilian revolutionaries in 1930. The shipment was captured by the Brazilian government and at some point they were marked with a PM prefix number on the right side of the receiver, supposedly for police use. The long number on your stock is some kind of Brazilian number.

    The P prefix serial number (on the left side of the receiver) standard VZ24s, made in 1937, were sold to China and Japan with some being retained for Czech use.
    Last edited by geladen; 03-15-2010 at 10:14 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 3371940 View Post
    Here’s one I picked up a couple of years ago. The seller had this and another rifle (matching pre-war 98k) that supposedly came out of the closet. It is a p series, but it does have the E Lion Czech acceptance. However, it isn’t import marked and it is matching. It also has the kanji marked sling. When I took it apart to clean I couldn’t get the sling of fit was so fragile so I just left it.
    This is an example of a Czech Army rifle being 'borrowed' by ZB to fill a contract. ZB had one big advantage in the competition with Mauser and FN. Being a government owned company, ZB could (and did) borrow rifles from Czech Army inventory to fill a contract and make more rifles to replace them. Mauser and FN had nowhere near as many rifles available for quick shipment and had to make them to fill large orders, which took time. Want your rifles right away? Dial 1-800-ZB-CZECH. Your sling shows it was sold to the Japanese Navy.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    2,517

    Default

    This is certainly not a Brazilian contract, problem is with the serial letter, it was destined for contract, but as 1938 was hard year it were accepted in Czechoslovak army and after 1938 send to other contract country, the China is out in this case.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    This is certainly not a Brazilian contract, problem is with the serial letter, it was destined for contract, but as 1938 was hard year it were accepted in Czechoslovak army and after 1938 send to other contract country, the China is out in this case.
    Andy, the Brazilian rifle I referred to was introduced in post #20. The P series rifle with the E3 (lion) 38 acceptance was introduced in post #19. They are two different rifles.

    The P series with the E3 acceptance was dated 1937 on top of the receiver but dated 1938 with the E3 (lion) 38 acceptance marking. That puts an approximate date on at least one shipment to Japan. It (P69830) went to Japan as did P51313, which makes me wonder if my Chinese P49939 went to Japan before it went to China.

    Regards,
    Bill

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    So. Fl.
    Posts
    1,620

    Default

    Hi guys,
    Here's one I picked up about a dozen years ago. All matching no import marks and in very nice condition. The fellow I got it from said his Marine uncle acquired it in Korea but whether in '45 or '50-53 he didn't know. There's an unusual "V" stamp in the wrist area and I've wondered if this is a Czech marking or Japanese? I've seen a similar looking stamp on the grip of a Japanese modified Dutch bayonet.

    Len
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P series VZ24 002.JPG   P series VZ24 003.JPG   P series VZ24 004.JPG   P series VZ24 005.JPG   P series VZ24 007.JPG   P series VZ24 008.JPG  

    P series VZ24 010.JPG   P series VZ24 009.JPG  
    ..of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants. -Alexander Hamilton , The Federalist Papers

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    2,517

    Default

    Hello thanks for correction me on the 19 thread, problem is that i dont know exactly what for Japan contract were used a C range or P? Is great possibility that Japan captured the China contract post 1939?

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Andy,

    What we don't know, as usual, is more than what we do know.

    We know that ZB sold rifles to both Japan and China.

    We know that some C series and some P series were used by Japan.

    We know that some P series were used by China.

    We know that Japan captured large numbers of Chinese VZ24 rifles and used them as a substitute standard.

    We know that Japan surrendered rifles to China after the end of WWII.

    We know that China used VZ24 rifles in Korea.

    Maybe the C series was an earlier contract for Japan and rifles from the P series were later sold to both Japan and China. We have an approximate sale date of 1938-9 for one P series rifle sold, the one marked 1937 and E3 (lion) 38.

    MMRW says 40,000 were sold to Japan in 1938 and 195,200 were sold to China in 1927-1938. That suggests any C series used by Japan was captured from China.

    A serial number survey sticky would help.
    Last edited by geladen; 03-16-2010 at 02:38 PM.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    There is no V in the wrist on my P49939 Chinese stock. I do find a very faint 0 on the wrist of my Lion Crest VZ24 stock but I can't read the stock serial number. I find no markings there on two other VZ24 stocks, one 06060 (stock does not match Iraqi used action) and the other a Romanian CR.

  29. #29
    John Wall's Avatar
    John Wall is offline Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,243

    Default

    Geladen,
    Your statements contain many factual errors:


    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Andy,

    What we don't know, as usual, is more than what we do know. No, we know a great deal more than you think we know, :-)

    1. We know that ZB sold rifles to both Japan and China.
    Incorrect. Only the Gemans sold Czechoslovak rifles to Japan

    2. We know that some C series and some P series were used by Japan.
    Correct

    3. We know that some P series were used by China.
    Correct

    4. We know that Japan captured large numbers of Chinese VZ24 rifles and used them as a substitute standard.
    Disagree Strongly. Please cite a primary source to substantiate this statement.

    5. We know that Japan surrendered rifles to China after the end of WWII.
    Agree. The large scale surrender of Arisaka rifles is well documented

    6. We know that China used VZ24 rifles in Korea.
    Disagree. Again please cite primary sources....for the use of more than 10 or 20 Vz.24.s

    7. Maybe the C series was an earlier contract for Japan and rifles from the P series were later sold to both Japan and China. We have an approximate sale date of 1938-9 for one P series rifle sold, the one marked 1937 and E3 (lion) 38.
    And maybe not. We have substantiated dates of 1938-1940 for the Japanese Navy sale. No other sale to Japan has been documented. See Otakar Franek's history of CZB export orders, "Arms for the Whole World", published in Brno in 1971. The German sale of Vz.24's to the Imperial Japanese Navy was the only one contract with Japan

    8. MMRW says 40,000 were sold to Japan in 1938 and 195,200 were sold to China in 1927-1938. That suggests any C series used by Japan was captured from China.
    Incorrect. It suggests nothing at all other than the Japanese had C-series V.24's. For what its worth, the only C-series Vz.24 with a known, documented provenance is one with US Army export papers was from the Phillipines dated in 1945. I and many other collectors have examined many dozens of ex-Chinese Vz.24 rifles and none were ever noted with the receiver and stock markings of a C-series rifle. Indeed, most Chinese Vz.24's have the three line address "Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka Brno".

    9. A serial number survey sticky would help.
    It would be pointless since several Vz.24 serial number surveys exist for thousands of Vz.24's. The best survey was done here on Gunboards over the past 8 years. The other survey examined Vz.24 imports from China and was published in Banzai around 20 years ago. The surveys convincingly indicate that rifles were shipped to Asia by random numbers. No three-line or P-series Vz.24 were sold or shipped in large consecutive serial number blocks.
    Last edited by John Wall; 03-16-2010 at 09:59 PM.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    John, what's your take on the painted stock numbers on my P?
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  31. #31
    John Wall's Avatar
    John Wall is offline Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,243

    Default

    Hi HB,
    This is the first of this type of marking I have ever seen. I have seen kanji images on ex-IJN rifles on a few occasiions, and the typcial brand marks on Chinese rifles, but nothing like this. The paint appears fragile and fading. Is that the case? It's great that you have been able to locate and second rifle with similar painted numbers. So many of these surviving "1937" rifles have had their stocks refinished, etc. It's great to see an authentic one as it was brought back.
    Regards,
    John

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    Tks John. The other one was described, not depicted, but it sounded close:
    http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/.../t-109287.html

    However, mine is a 45 over an 11

    The paint on it is fragile and faded, definitely old period, but not really coming off. I'm not messing with it. The stock, typical of these when unmessed with, has a thin type of varnish/flaxseed oil (linseed oil) protectant/sealer that looks damaged by water dripping or humidity.
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Thanks, John, statements I post like that are meant to foster discussion and are of course subject to correction.

    Rephrased in red:

    1. We know that VZ24 rifles were sold to both Japan and China.

    2. We know that some C series and some P series were used by Japan.

    3. We know that some P series were used by China.

    4. MMRW says that Japan captured large numbers of Chinese VZ24 rifles and used them as a substitute standard (not a primary source).

    5. We know that Japan surrendered rifles to China after the end of WWII.

    6. We know that China used Mauser rifles in Korea. With the huge numbers of VZ24 rifles posessed by China, it seems reasonable that some Mausers used in Korea were VZ24 rifles.

    7. The Japanese contract contained C and P series, and possibly other small batches. According to John Wall, no C series Chinese rifles are known.

    8. MMRW says 40,000 were sold to Japan in 1938 and 195,200 were sold to China in 1927-1938 (not a primary source).

    9. A serial number survey sticky posted in the Czech Weapons Board or The Military Mauser Forum would help since there apparently is no currently active survey and the information from past surveys does not seem to be available to Gunboards members. Hopefully a new survey would start by incorporating the information from past surveys.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    2,517

    Default

    hello i have looked to my sources, certainly John W. have added very interesting points, but i would disagree with the point nr.1 Brno signed the first contract with Japan in early 1939, so the contract was signed with Czechoslovak Armory, the delivery was maybe realised with germans already in Czechia, but as the Japan was ally with german this contract were not stopped.
    The China contract of 1938 were of about 75000 rifles, which certainly corespond with the P serial, so i believe this contract have a one serial string with 1937 marked reciever.
    The C range i believe was destined for other country but was probably realised lately for Japan contract, as the 40000 range is in the range extended, there are samples here about 54xxx so the string probably not started by zero. best regards,Andy

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Thanks for the correction, Andy. It's always good to hear from the man on the scene.

    Regards,
    Bill

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    SE Kansas
    Posts
    125

    Default 7mm SOG VZ24

    It does indeed. Interesting information. I think I have finally figured out how to post pictures. Let me give it a try.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails SOG VZ24 7mm 003..JPG   SOG VZ24 7mm 001..JPG   SOG VZ24 7mm 002..JPG  

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sgthurley View Post
    It does indeed. Interesting information. I think I have finally figured out how to post pictures. Let me give it a try.
    For comparison, my numbers are:
    2359
    PM03752.9
    4201 000168047
    no number by spring

    And if that is not far enough off topic, yesterday I received an SVT40 repro cleaning rod to replace the Chinese SKS rod in my SVT40.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Back on topic - I was doing a search to try to find a photo of the Type I rifle with the painted number over a number on the stock. I did not find it but I did find this on Gunboards about Type I rifles:

    Some of the above serials have additional data as follows:

    A4834 has Japanese Kanji & sling also Nagoya proofed on bottom of stock.
    .
    B5887 has a Mum, under buttplate carved in wood " PT. RUNYAN 1st MARINE DIV. PELELIU 1938 MADE IN TERNI ITALY".
    .
    C5118 is a Chinese Import to the U.S.
    .
    D356 has" Type 45" in paint vertical on stock.
    .
    D3440 (SAG inside a diamond on top of rear sight ladder).
    .
    E184 short stock variation, came with Japanese bayonet
    .
    E5914 has metal painted black and has a sporterized stock.

    F7240 has a 1"x3" (silver) plaque on the left side stock above triggerguard.
    .
    F8359 has Japanese sling with Kanji.
    .
    G925 (88 over 17 separated by a horizontal line painted in white paint on right buttstock).
    .
    G1507 has Japanese sling, Okinawa capture 1945.
    .
    G986 has Japanese sling.
    .
    G5835 has Japanese sling with white Kanji.
    .
    G6601 has Japanese sling with Kanji.
    .
    I849 "2" behind trigger guard.
    .
    I1196 "2" behind trigger guard, from "Sabu Nagaski Japan"
    .
    I5205 has Japanese Naval Anchor (ToyoKawa) on stock behind triggerguard tang.
    .
    I5206 GB in an oval on stock behind triggerguard tang, and six black Kana characters on the right hand buttstock.
    .
    J2433 is sporterized, from Burma.
    .
    K1594 has Japanese sling
    .
    K7593 has Japanese sling with white Kanji
    .
    K 8932, sling w/kanji, remnants of Kanji on underside of stock, below rear band. Receiver has original purplish coloring to finish No history.
    .
    L3434 (has an anchor under the serial number).

  39. #39
    John Wall's Avatar
    John Wall is offline Diamond Member with Oak Leaves and Swords
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyB View Post
    hello i have looked to my sources, certainly John W. have added very interesting points, but i would disagree with the point nr.1 Brno signed the first contract with Japan in early 1939, so the contract was signed with Czechoslovak Armory, the delivery was maybe realised with germans already in Czechia, but as the Japan was ally with german this contract were not stopped.
    The China contract of 1938 were of about 75000 rifles, which certainly corespond with the P serial, so i believe this contract have a one serial string with 1937 marked reciever.
    The C range i believe was destined for other country but was probably realised lately for Japan contract, as the 40000 range is in the range extended, there are samples here about 54xxx so the string probably not started by zero. best regards,Andy
    Andy,
    I have to disagree. The Czechoslovak Armory at Brno effectively lost control of its destiny, exports and strategic corporate management in September of 1938 when the Germans occupied the Sudetenland. One of the many results of this was that the Germans took physical control of the Skoda Works where all of Brno's barrel steel was fabricated. It's simple: no barrels, no sale. When Brno signed the contract selling rifles to China in 1939, they were already a dependent arm to the 3rd Reich. After March of 1939 of course, Bohemia and Moravia (and Brno) were absorbed into Germany completely.

    Regarding the C-series rifles, the known range is vey limited, and we simply don't know what happened to rifles outside this range other than imperical data that a small number ended up in Japanese service.
    Regards,
    John

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    2,517

    Default

    [QUOTE=John Wall;1269489]Andy,
    I have to disagree. The Czechoslovak Armory at Brno effectively lost control of its destiny, exports and strategic corporate management in September of 1938 when the Germans occupied the Sudetenland.
    -The Muenchen agreement was signed on 30.9. 1938, the occupieng of parts of Sudetenland started 2-3 X.1938

    One of the many results of this was that the Germans took physical control of the Skoda Works where all of Brno's barrel steel was fabricated.
    -wrong info, since 30 ies Zbrojovka used various sources of steel, in last years mainly the slovakian plant Podbrezova which was a part of Zbrojovka
    It's simple: no barrels, no sale. When Brno signed the contract selling rifles to China in 1939, they were already a dependent arm to the 3rd Reich. After March of 1939 of course, Bohemia and Moravia (and Brno) were absorbed into Germany completely.
    - i didnt wrote that last China contract was signed 1939, it was signed in first half of 1938 and delivered prior the end of 1938, the components in this contract were second quality as Czechoslovak army will not these weapons.
    The piece with E3 lion 38 is a exception in the rule.
    From this i assume the last China contract was in one string of serial numbers, and P range with sampled about 69xxx corespond with the 75000 bunch

    Regarding the C-series rifles, the known range is vey limited, and we simply don't know what happened to rifles outside this range other than imperical data that a small number ended up in Japanese service.
    - Japan contract was signed early 1939 before the Protektorat Boehmen und Maehren
    - You forgot one important thing in the 1938/39 period, germans didnt capture the area similar to victories like by Poland or by France, they accepted a concern of Skoda or ZB as independent private investment and they overrun the concern with legal ways, with buyin stocks ect. in 1938 they dont have majority about Skoda Plzen, because there was french and english capital there, the full incorporating of the plants to German arms industry were realised in early 1940 not earlier. T.
    One way to confirm this is the Czechoslovak reciever stamp on rifles made in 1939 like the romanian ones marked 1939.best regards,Andy

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    Regarding the C-series rifles, the known range is vey limited, and we simply don't know what happened to rifles outside this range other than imperical data that a small number ended up in Japanese service.
    Regards,
    John
    It seems that the P series Japanese rifles can fit neatly into the 1939 contract. The C series Japanese rifles are still a mystery. Perhaps they were purchased earlier by the Japanese in small quanity (trials?) or perhaps there were a small leftover batch that got included in the 1939 contract.

    Andy, or John, or anyone, is there reason to think the C series rifles were made long before the P series? Can anyone put an approximate date of manufacture on the C series rifles?

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Slovakia
    Posts
    2,517

    Default

    As the reciever is marked only with serial number, i believe the C range was stamped later as the P block, and is totally independent from the P block. There si no sing of link between this too serial strings.best regards,Andy

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Wall View Post
    Geladen,
    Your statements contain many factual errors:
    6. We know that China used VZ24 rifles in Korea.
    Disagree. Again please cite primary sources....for the use of more than 10 or 20 Vz.24.s
    MBR (Olsen) page 171: ". . . China also adopted the CZ Model 24 7.92 mm. short rifle . . . and it was used during the Korean War." Not a primary source, but Olsen is authorative nonetheless.

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    8,308

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Len S View Post
    Hi guys,
    Here's one I picked up about a dozen years ago. All matching no import marks and in very nice condition. The fellow I got it from said his Marine uncle acquired it in Korea but whether in '45 or '50-53 he didn't know. There's an unusual "V" stamp in the wrist area and I've wondered if this is a Czech marking or Japanese? I've seen a similar looking stamp on the grip of a Japanese modified Dutch bayonet.

    Len
    Hello Len,
    That's a beauty! That is a Czech marking, an inspect of some kind, and the letter varies. It shows up on G.24(t)s as well.
    Regards,
    HB
    http://k98kforum.com/
    K98k Research and Reference Forum
    "You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. " -
    Sir Winston Churchill

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •