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  1. #1
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    Default Non-union made firearms/ammo?

    Are there any firearms manufacturers producing weapons within the United States whose workers are not unionized?

    I know that Colt, Remington, and Winchester are all union shops.

    Ruger?
    Henry?
    Smith & Wesson?
    Others?

    What about ammo manufacturers? Winchester and Remington (see above) are union shops, but what about CCI and Federal?

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    I guess as far as I go, I'd rather know which makers are union so I can avoid them. The UAW did their best to shut Colt down for good, the main reason they lost out on the M16a2 contract in the 90s to FN. Pretty hard to bid a govt contract with your line shut down for a year due to a strike.

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    I suppose the question could be sliced either way. Colt, Remington, and Winchester are all on union "do-buy" lists targeted towards "look for the union label" types.

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    Mainly due to labor problems, Winchester closed it's plant down in 2006. Most of the new guns are made in Utah by Browning, who is owned by a foreign conglomerate. Model 70s are made by FN in SC. Google "Items made in the USA (with non-sweatshop labor)" Ruger makes the list. When I did some checking I found that they were slapped with some fines by OSHA about the last time they had any labor problems. Remington has been bought by the same company that owns Bushmaster in the last few years.
    Last edited by srinde; 03-22-2010 at 10:09 AM.

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    Thanks srinde,
    I posed this question on this and one other forum. On the other forum I was informed that all Winchester products are now being made in a non-union plant in South Carolina. Ruger is also non-union.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffy View Post
    Thanks srinde,
    I posed this question on this and one other forum. On the other forum I was informed that all Winchester products are now being made in a non-union plant in South Carolina. Ruger is also non-union.
    Good reasons to buy Winchester or Ruger. Unions started out as criminal conspiracies, and as best I can tell, haven't changd since. The main (but hardly only) victims are the poor suckers on the shop floor the union is supposed to be taking care of.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    As a former GM employee and member of the United Auto Workers in the 80's, the only surprise that I had from the recent GM bankruptcy was that it took so long to happen. That any company could run itself profitably while being so hag-ridden by a union as GM was by the UAW simply beggars belief!

    Unions are an idea whose time has come and gone. Modern managers, if they want to stay competitive, have learned to treat their employees with decency and respect, as that has been proven to improve productivity and make the most money for the company in the long run. Do you think Microsoft or Google would have succeeded if their employees had all joined the SEIU?

    I still keep my UAW union card as an object lesson of how NOT to run a company.

    The Expert
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    Member since Gunboards v1.0

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    Could also help you with the current administration. (Since the unions seem to have the inside track.)
    Charlie

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    CPW...... you got that right. and if FN makes 70's, that's good enough for me.
    " Dude with a pencil is worse than a cat with a machinegun"... Bo Diddley

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    Very interesting thread.
    I emailed Kel-Tec and they replied that they are non union.
    Жить стало лучше, товарищи. Жить стало веселее.
    Life has improved, comrades. Life has become more joyous!
    I.V.S, 1935

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    Quote Originally Posted by srinde View Post
    I guess as far as I go, I'd rather know which makers are union so I can avoid them. The UAW did their best to shut Colt down for good, the main reason they lost out on the M16a2 contract in the 90s to FN. Pretty hard to bid a govt contract with your line shut down for a year due to a strike.
    From Wikipedia:

    In 1986, Colt's workers, members of the United Auto Workers went on strike for higher wages. This strike would ultimately last for four years, and was one of the longest running labor strikes in American history. With replacement workers running production, the quality of Colt's firearms began to slip. Dissatisfied with Colt's production, in 1988 the U.S. military awarded the contract for future M16 production to Fabrique Nationale.

    Some criticized Colt's range of handgun products in the late 1980s as out of touch with the demands of the market, and their once-vaunted reputation for quality had suffered during the UAW strike. Colt's stable of double action revolvers and single action pistols were seen as old fashioned by a marketplace that was captivated by the new generation of "wondernines" - high-capacity, 9 mm caliber handguns, as typified by the Glock 17.

    Realizing that the future of the company was at stake, labor and management agreed to end the strike in an arrangement that resulted in Colt being sold to a group of private investors, the State of Connecticut, and the UAW itself.

    The new Colt first attempted to address some of the demands of the market with the production in 1990 of the Double Eagle, a double action pistol based heavily on the M1911 design which was seen as an attempt to "modernize" the classic Browning design. Colt followed this up in 1992 with the Colt All American 2000, which was unlike any other handgun Colt had produced before.

    The Colt All American 2000 was a polymer framed, rotary bolt, 9 mm handgun with a magazine capacity of 15 rounds. It was everything that Colt thought the civilian market wanted in a handgun. Unfortunately, the execution was disastrous. Early models were plagued with inaccuracy and unreliability, and suffered from the poor publicity of having to be recalled. The product launch failed and production of the All American 2000 ended in 1994................



    By 1992 Colt was forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The reorganization included a new York investment firm, Zilkha & Co., took over 85% of the company ownership in exchange for an investment that rescued the company. This means the state and UAW took a beating. Tough.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    By 1992 Colt was forced to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The reorganization included a new York investment firm, Zilkha & Co., took over 85% of the company ownership in exchange for an investment that rescued the company. This means the state and UAW took a beating. Tough.
    Thanks for the history jjk308, that was interesting and informative.

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    Does anyone know what companies are now making our military ammo while we are engaged in two wars? I've heard that South Korea and Israel supply large qauntities of small arms ammo. Is this true? I also believe Winchester is now manufacturing fotr the military, maybe has been all along. Has the US military been buying up surplus ammo from private sources, explainingh the recent scarcity and high prices of military surplus ammo? Are there any US arsenals still in existance and producing ammo/weapons? I know there have been foreign takeovers of old US companies, though US plants may be producing, but what happens in a new military emergency (such as an attack on Israel or South Korea)? Where will our supplies come from??
    T0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    Good reasons to buy Winchester or Ruger. Unions started out as criminal conspiracies, and as best I can tell, haven't changd since. The main (but hardly only) victims are the poor suckers on the shop floor the union is supposed to be taking care of.
    I like Rugers, and this gives me another reason to like them. Lots of folks didn't like their support for the AWB though. I still think it was more a case of seeing the writing on the wall and trying to survive economically, so it doesn't bother me much.
    Keep your mouth shut
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebohunk View Post
    I like Rugers, and this gives me another reason to like them. Lots of folks didn't like their support for the AWB though. I still think it was more a case of seeing the writing on the wall and trying to survive economically, so it doesn't bother me much.
    That (support for AWB) was pretty much a Bill Ruger, Sr, decision - and Bill ain't running things anymore.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Talking

    RUGER buys some of its wood from the same place my friend gets his high grade woods. NON UNION FAMILY BUSINESS.
    we get a truck of two full each year.
    RUGER lost its credit line with this old timer who goes all over the state and keeps tracks of individual trees buying old growth farm trees from families. FOR Win-Rem- MARLIN who buys wood that has a lot white colorless sap wood showing but the pressurized staining covers it well.
    now do you want to do business with these guys?
    when Ruger would place large orders for blanks mostly standard grades and order was filled, ready to ship they only wanted half or none at all.
    putting the old man in a real bind, having to find a buyer to pay his incurred bills for this work already done. then maybe unpacking stacks to arrange orders to new spec ts. all losses of time and money again.
    they have to pay cash on order now last 4 years.
    the old wood man said the children had gambled heavily after dad died on stock market.( the first crises) and were hurting for liquid assets at times.
    as far as buying union or non-union- i buy what i want - when i want to no regards for politics, unions, nationality, just my unbiased wants.
    years of seeing what big business- politics- unions did to my state, county, country------------ i wont go there..
    "a deal is a deal" my friend i can't/won't research old guns for CORRECTNESS and see if Colt or Smith was unionized back then or careless about it today!
    if i buy an old GUN I DON'T THINK-- RUSSIAN Communist, a French Nationalist, BRITISH Socialist OR AN American Idealist of any party.
    a deal is a deal- just try to buy the best at the least price.

    but again i don't buy iceberg lettuce or Michelin tires since Vietnam.
    this left over from my protest days when i was an American idealist too!
    NOW since we have opened the subject.
    we all buy from Walmart THAT practices HAS ACTUALLY HELPED TO DISPLACED MANY AMERICAN TEXTILE WORKERS PRODUCTS.
    we buy CHEEP NON UNION SLAVE LABORED, UN-FARE TRADE STANDARDS, (COMPARED TO OUR STANDARDS) because the American dollar cant doesn't have high perching value before Clinton rein of sale offs.
    LETS START THEIR FIRST.
    FIRST BATTLE THE WIFE!
    BUT GUNS I THINK WE ARE WAY TOO LATE- LOOKING IN MY SAFES <><dk
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 03-23-2010 at 07:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    RUGER buys some of its wood from the same place my friend gets his high grade woods. NON UNION FAMILY BUSINESS.
    we get a truck of two full each year.
    RUGER lost its credit line with this old timer who goes all over the state and keeps tracks of individual trees buying old growth farm trees from families. FOR Win-Rem- MARLIN who buys wood that has a lot white colorless sap wood showing but the pressurized staining covers it well.
    now do you want to do business with these guys?
    when Ruger would place large orders for blanks mostly standard grades and order was filled, ready to ship they only wanted half or none at all.
    putting the old man in a real bind, having to find a buyer to pay his incurred bills for this work already done. then maybe unpacking stacks to arrange orders to new spec ts. all losses of time and money again.
    they have to pay cash on order now last 4 years.
    the old wood man said the children had gambled heavily after dad died on stock market.( the first crises) and were hurting for liquid assets at times.
    as far as buying union or non-union- i buy what i want - when i want to no regards for politics, unions, nationality, just my unbiased wants.
    years of seeing what big business- politics- unions did to my state, county, country------------ i wont go there..
    "a deal is a deal" my friend i can't/won't research old guns for CORRECTNESS and see if Colt or Smith was unionized back then or careless about it today!
    if i buy an old GUN I DON'T THINK-- RUSSIAN Communist, a French Nationalist, BRITISH Socialist OR AN American Idealist of any party.
    a deal is a deal- just try to buy the best at the least price.

    but again i don't buy iceberg lettuce or Michelin tires since Vietnam.
    this left over from my protest days when i was an American idealist too!
    NOW since we have opened the subject.
    we all buy from Walmart THAT practices HAS ACTUALLY HELPED TO DISPLACED MANY AMERICAN TEXTILE WORKERS PRODUCTS.
    we buy CHEEP NON UNION SLAVE LABORED, UN-FARE TRADE STANDARDS, (COMPARED TO OUR STANDARDS) because the American dollar cant doesn't have high perching value before Clinton rein of sale offs.
    LETS START THEIR FIRST.
    FIRST BATTLE THE WIFE!
    BUT GUNS I THINK WE ARE WAY TOO LATE- LOOKING IN MY SAFES <><dk
    I agree, but theres nothing wrong with putting your money into businesses that are on your side. To this day, I refuse to buy Heinz ketchup.
    Keep your mouth shut
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    That (support for AWB) was pretty much a Bill Ruger, Sr, decision - and Bill ain't running things anymore.

    Right, but it seems to have left a bad taste in alot of people's mouths. Not mine, I grew up on Rugers, and I still like them.
    Keep your mouth shut
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    It wasn't a rational business decision, just Bill Ruger's cranky old prejudice against rifles with big, clunky magazines. He just didn't think that any civilian needed more than 10 rounds. It really was just an antiquated survival of the pre WWII military's prejudice against magazines that stuck out of the bottom of a rifle, that resulted in the M1 Garand's 8 round clip.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    Funny how so many people have forgotten that Colt and S&W were both talking about getting out of the private gun business at one time.

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    I just got a reply from Smith & Wesson. They are not a union shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jjk308 View Post
    It wasn't a rational business decision, just Bill Ruger's cranky old prejudice against rifles with big, clunky magazines. He just didn't think that any civilian needed more than 10 rounds. It really was just an antiquated survival of the pre WWII military's prejudice against magazines that stuck out of the bottom of a rifle, that resulted in the M1 Garand's 8 round clip.
    I'm told that Bill Sr could indeed be a right cranky and opinionated rascal. From a source that would know about that. The source also said he was a truly good guy.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    He built his own car too, no way he could be all bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srinde View Post
    He built his own car too, no way he could be all bad.
    Yep, one off (AFAIK) that was modeled after the big Bentleys from the late 20s/early 30s - think Speed Six ("fastest lorries in the world" Ettore Bugatti).
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Lightbulb clue less? BUT FOLLOW THE MONEY

    Bohunk ----I gotta ask why Heinze? missed that one.
    i feel that the way to get to any company is buy THERE STUFF cheep not retail.
    buy in bulk ammo and other supplies. you both win a little.

    but to single out "unions" or non-union companies even hoping they fail in the long run is cutting our on throats.
    take gun companies that build guns in the most restrictive anti gun states, what's up with all that?
    why not build in a state that's mostly pro gun?
    the answer is simply we don't see the big picture- CUT DEALS---
    everyones in bed with everybody!
    just like Tiger's "Wood" .

    MONEY IS MONEY .
    BLEEDING HEART CAUSES MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD ----ONLY LIKE THE LETTUCE, KETCHUPS ? ,TIRES AND CHANGES ALMOST NOTHING . HEALTH CARE Bills the LAW now ! MONEY IS MONEY NOT THERE TO HELP ANYONE smoke and no fire! may accidental benefit common people or hurt others?
    IF A GUN FACTORY CLOSES, GOD FORBID MORE USA WORKERS ARE OUT OF JOBS.
    TAXES, UNEMPLOYMENT PICKED UP BY US.
    IMPORTED DUTIES / TAXES ON THESE GUNS COMES INTO PLAY.
    REMINGTON SHOTGUNS RUSSIAN, RIFLES MARK X A GOOD GUN THAT I HAVE OWNED AND WOULD BUY AGAIN, BUT NOT THE 700'S.
    THE MONEY MAKERS BUY INTO ALL THIS ACTION AND LOSES NOTHING REALLY DOESN'T HURT THEM JUST THE WORKERS.

    RUGER MAKES GOOD SHOTGUNS, SOLD THEM , OWN MOSTLY HIGH GRADE ITALIAN.
    RUGER PISTOLS AND RIFLES AIN'T UP TO MY ACCURACY STANDARDS YET. <><DK
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 03-24-2010 at 08:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    Bohunk ----I gotta ask why Heinze? missed that one. <><DK
    Think Teresa......

    Which is a shame because John Heinz was the best senator from Pa. in my lifetime thus far, and I`m 47......
    Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
    gewehrpatrone

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    Quote Originally Posted by DK PHILLIPS View Post
    i feel that the way to get to any company is buy THERE STUFF cheep not retail.
    buy in bulk ammo and other supplies. you both win a little.

    but to single out "unions" or non-union companies even hoping they fail in the long run is cutting our on throats.
    Yes - BUY WHOLESALE! I wish to hell I'd bought a boxcar of those 1893 Turkish mausers when they were 3 for $100!

    As for the unions, I think a lot of us have a prejudice against unions because they often deliberately foment labor problems, like strikes for unrealistic contracts, etc... just to keep the members dependent on them. The officers often really do not seem to care if a company goes down the drain, because the national will keep THEM employed, even when all the local members are gone. The UAW had a big part in Colt's decline and eventual bankruptcy, for example.

    I had a first row seat for the extermination of the garment industry in the USA by the ILGWU - my father was a member before he became a foreman. If their actions weren't deliberate, to make as much trouble as possible and drive production first to non-union plants in Georgia and S. Carolina, then overseas, then they were either pure idiots or delusional, or they were getting some kind of payoff.

    They not only had slowdowns, constant grievances and threatened strikes and refused to negotiate new contracts seriously, but they supported politicians who pushed free trade agreements with countries where the same company they were striking against was building plants and setting up subsidiaries to supply them!
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srinde View Post
    I guess as far as I go, I'd rather know which makers are union so I can avoid them. The UAW did their best to shut Colt down for good, the main reason they lost out on the M16a2 contract in the 90s to FN. Pretty hard to bid a govt contract with your line shut down for a year due to a strike.

    Heck yea!!!! +10000
    "Would you die in your sleep like an ailing pet?" - Serenity

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    There are no Ruger family members that own any substantial stock in the company. Hence Rugers AR platform and other inovations.

    Many years ago I took an amorer's course at the factory and had a tour of the old mans house including the two "Ruger" automobiles. They were something to see. His house and gun collection was out of this world also!

    As far as unions go, There is absolutely nothing good to say about them, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gewehrpatrone View Post
    Think Teresa......

    Which is a shame because John Heinz was the best senator from Pa. in my lifetime thus far, and I`m 47......
    Beat me to it.
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    Red face union who me? well it can happen in the blink of an black eye!

    I'M not a union type person but in my part of the country a person could get hurt just expressing thoughts against unions.
    when teacher went on strike i didn't- sister did same county-dad's a union man too retired from railroad. mad for weeks.
    STRIKING teachers damaged my $400 BLACK SPRAY PAINTED DODGE 3 SPEED STATION WAGON. ruff when all together------but i rode up to three of the turfiest individuals houses 8:00- 9:00 pm.
    just asked them to step out side on their porches for conversation or confrontation. over my property. told them all what if i was the kind of man to burned their 10,000 dollar cars at 12:00 am- would that help the strike or hurt it?
    i protested the VN wars ideology supported the troops., helped organize strikes, dealt in crowd control too--but didn't think it was wrong for people to stand up for what they believed with out violence incurred.
    they were very angry men but wouldn't come out the doors- wifes behind them! only one came out plainly to talk saying he warned them?
    i told them all i was going to more houses the next night when the were by themselves- the phones were ringing!----no more trouble!
    was i right wife didn't think so. would i do it again? <>< changed man--can you walk over me- try it will both see if i changed!

    much later accidental i became Vice president at my local level aft union-? i was signed up by the wife!, voted in when i was absent!,- and they all new how i felt and what i did and i lasted a couple years uncomfortably.
    it was a steam roller effect out of control? i didn't even fit in but hide it.
    but no one wanted the job, or could run again and well it was embarrassing internally but i did what was right!
    later faded out, dropped out, all faded away----- for its hard to pretend passion.
    I'm an individual in nature and actions-- so if i have a problem- work on it my way for me.
    being restricted from personal actions or having to consider representing groups isn't me.
    when young and strong- once i had a coordinator put his finger in my face, GD this and that-- i tried to leave he blocked the way.
    i told him i would wipe him right then and lose two years seniority but his twenty would be his loss cause i would say he swung first. he got out of my way. had no need for unions in that time of my life.
    told a principle he may write me up wrongly, but i would wipe his ass at the gate at 2:30 and the whole county would know! paying the fine is just the ticket price for the show- he backed off very fast with his unfounded gossiping threats..
    much, much calmer now unless???????? still very fast with my fist and strong,
    but grandchildren have a way of giving you second thoughts of having to explain the non explainable. unions well good for the rule players.<><dk
    Last edited by DK PHILLIPS; 03-25-2010 at 07:08 PM.

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    Fact is union leadership is generally the most corrupt group in the USA. However there is not a single worker in American, union or non-union, that doesn't benefit in decent wages, benefits, work hours, protections from abusive employers, and many more unappreciated freedoms from oppression that were fought for and won with the blood and guts of good decent union members. I wish I could magically make all unions disappear then give it about ten years. I'd wager everything I have that most of you "union haters" would be screaming for protection from employers run amok with the power to treat you like they really want to but can't get away with now. Stop blaming decent hard working folks that only want to have some sort of assurances that they aren't subject to the ever changing whims of some boss that is only interested in his own bottom line. They ARE out there and there are many more who would abuse their employees if they could.

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    Unfortunately today the great majority of union workers are government employees. Most of that is because the corruption and unrealistic demands of unions have driven may manufacturing jobs out of the USA and unfortunately you can't do that with service type government jobs! And those government jobs come with civil service protections stronger than most union contracts, but the unions like them because of the political power it gives them.

    That "abuse" MCQueenie talks about is now ancient history, and today for every worker abused by an employers there is at least another one, maybe 2, who are abused by unions, who are really just another business, and all too often a corrupt one..

    I speak from experience having once tried to form a union local. Called and wrote 3 unions, got one phone call back in reply. I described the situation, the large number of employees who felt they needed protection for their positions, and he replied "I don't think that's worth our while." and hung up on me.
    I swear by Jupiter Optimus Maximus .... in the army of the consul Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and for 10 miles around it I will not steal anything worth more than a sestertius in any one day.

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    Ancient history? Not really. Still doesn't change history itself. I've worked non-union and union jobs. Non-union...suck-asses and family members get the promotions, good days off, extra hours, ect. No matter if they are worth a sh*t or not. Union jobs are at least more fair for everyone....whether they are worth a sh*t or not. Yeah, union rules are often idiotic and interfere with getting the job done but so are useless suck-asses and "Cousin Larry". Given the choice I'd pick a union job most every time. Union benefits and union politics are separate issues to me. Being a retired govt. worker (Ill. Dept. of Corrections) I know how it would have been working for them without a union. Intolerable and DANGEROUS to my life and my co-workers! Maybe a necessary evil but absolutely necessary without a doubt.

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    lived in WVa all my life.
    watch how everything evolved into a "representational look" of protection for the common man. but not letting that same common individual decide if he wants to join or not?
    you are forced into protectionisms of the union.
    the historical ideology and benefits are well noted and benefited everyone aether indirectly or directly.
    I'm for the right to choose in any job. not a hater of unions a realest.

    Unions, Edsel's, Packards, ENRON, banks------ even FEDERALISM have a history of importance.
    but as surely history is written, so shall it be re-written as time reviles truths and on going markets change..????
    MOSTLY unions are LESS TALKED ABOUT OR IMPORTANT to the over all picture. <><dk

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    You are all right about the Unions today. I am a IAFF member . And I despise the back room deals they worked with osama and his commie buddies. See they made sure that I don't pay a dime for this BS health insurance. That means the guy /girl who is nota IAFF member pays. I should remove my IaFF sticker before someone launches a brick through my window. Time to get ALL the Corrupt A_Holes out. But Yes I buy what I want where I want, Charlie
    If your not going to be smart--You'd better be tough!

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    Make no mistake. I despise union leadership as much as anyone. Its kind of like Congress and POTUS. Corrupt, greedy, thieves, robbers, and worse. But you don't paint all Americans with the same brush as you do our leadership in DC, do you? Once again, I know from experience how it was and how it would soon become without employees being able to organize against management when necessary. Most won't admit it but without unions, non-union folks would NOT be enjoying the benefits they now enjoy. Thats a plain and simple fact!

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    I think the whole premise of this thread is a serious mistake... I've never been in a Union, that said, I know a bunch of Union guys, they are Pro Freedom, Pro gun, Pro life and don't get all that much say in who the Union supports politically .. their main thing is being Pro Family.. and very Pro providing for their Family. They vote conservative, the vote pro gun and pro life.. they made a difference ( perhaps the difference) in electing Reagan and Bush against Gore. Folks, most the rank and file are our natural allies.

    It is better, IMHO to keep jobs stateside, than to force them overseas by not buying "Made in the USA"... We have already forced alot of our firearm and ammo production overseas by buying Communist and Facist made milslurp firearms and ammo at super cheap prices that US made stuff can't compete with. You worry about Presidential orders banning ammo imports.. but who forced the production overseas.. Ammo Consumers.. you and me.. that only buy the cheapest ammo available.. most of it only suitable for plinking at best... thats called shooting yourselves in the foot. And working to shut down any US Industry or drive it overseas, is shooting yourself in the foot, while you foot is in your mouth.

    You shut down or drive out industrial production from the USA because you don't like Unions , you will end up regreting it and we will have more threads about import embargos, Executive orders, hard to find expensive ammo, and firearms with crappy quality and poor customer service, and foreign goverments making enough ammo for US Military Forces because we can't do it for ourselves.

    IMHO, you need to draw a bright line between the Union Bosses and the rank and file.... IMHO, all that really needs to be done is to get a law that lets the rank and file vote on Union Dues spent on political contributions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    I think the whole premise of this thread is a serious mistake... I've never been in a Union, that said, I know a bunch of Union guys, they are Pro Freedom, Pro gun, Pro life and don't get all that much say in who the Union supports politically .. their main thing is being Pro Family.. and very Pro providing for their Family. They vote conservative, the vote pro gun and pro life.. they made a difference ( perhaps the difference) in electing Reagan and Bush against Gore. Folks, most the rank and file are our natural allies.

    It is better, IMHO to keep jobs stateside, than to force them overseas by not buying "Made in the USA"... We have already forced alot of our firearm and ammo production overseas by buying Communist and Facist made milslurp firearms and ammo at super cheap prices that US made stuff can't compete with. You worry about Presidential orders banning ammo imports.. but who forced the production overseas.. Ammo Consumers.. you and me.. that only buy the cheapest ammo available.. most of it only suitable for plinking at best... thats called shooting yourselves in the foot. And working to shut down any US Industry or drive it overseas, is shooting yourself in the foot, while you foot is in your mouth.

    You shut down or drive out industrial production from the USA because you don't like Unions , you will end up regreting it and we will have more threads about import embargos, Executive orders, hard to find expensive ammo, and firearms with crappy quality and poor customer service, and foreign goverments making enough ammo for US Military Forces because we can't do it for ourselves.

    IMHO, you need to draw a bright line between the Union Bosses and the rank and file.... IMHO, all that really needs to be done is to get a law that lets the rank and file vote on Union Dues spent on political contributions.
    You have nailed the reason I don't like unions - just read your first paragraph. And think about the implications. And - you can't (or won't) have unions without union bosses who will live well off the earnings of better men.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    You have nailed the reason I don't like unions - just read your first paragraph. And think about the implications. And - you can't (or won't) have unions without union bosses who will live well off the earnings of better men.
    Big difference between not likeing Unions and not likeing employed Americans.... I think some of the comments on this thread are going to do a lot more to drive off and alienate Union Members from the RKBA Community than actually do much about Unions themselves. IMHO, and it is just an opinion, given the political climate, that we would probably be better off and better able to defend our Rights by welding together all the various groups and individuals that support RKBA , than taking out Hits on jobs of the folks that support us, which, if you think about it, could send them over to the other side.... I just don't get the part about declaring people, because of their Union membership, as enemies and trying to organize or inspire forlks to threaten their jobs to get back at them for SOME of the stuff Unions do, and reduce the number of industrial jobs in America and send them overseas to communist or socalist countries like China, Veitnam, or Honduras... How does that help anybody except the enemies of this country?

    We need to reform and change the Unions and how they operate for sure.. but we don't need to further weaken the US or alienate pro RKBA Union Members in the process. This political purity stuff be declaring anybody and everybody an enemy of the conservative movement because of a few differences is going to make the conservative movement a powerless poitical minority with more enemies than Friends... especially in this case, when you know the Rank and File have been up to now, on our side.

    Cut the nuts off the Union Bosses by forcing them to put political spending to a vote by our Allies, the Rank and File... don't make enemies out of the Rank and File by broad brushing everybody in the Unions as an enemy and try to take down American Jobs, hurting the Nation itself.... Just my opinion.

    General undirected thoughless anger has never accomplished anything worthwhile... Identify the real problem and the real fix and focus on it... lot of Union guys are a helluva lot more pissed about their Union political Activity than you or I will ever be.. tap into that, and strengthed the RKBA movement at the same time. And try not to ruin this Nation and it's industrial capacity in the process... just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmoSgt View Post
    Big difference between not likeing Unions and not likeing employed Americans.... I think some of the comments on this thread are going to do a lot more to drive off and alienate Union Members from the RKBA Community than actually do much about Unions themselves. IMHO, and it is just an opinion, given the political climate, that we would probably be better off and better able to defend our Rights by welding together all the various groups and individuals that support RKBA , than taking out Hits on jobs of the folks that support us, which, if you think about it, could send them over to the other side.... I just don't get the part about declaring people, because of their Union membership, as enemies and trying to organize or inspire forlks to threaten their jobs to get back at them for SOME of the stuff Unions do, and reduce the number of industrial jobs in America and send them overseas to communist or socalist countries like China, Veitnam, or Honduras... How does that help anybody except the enemies of this country?

    We need to reform and change the Unions and how they operate for sure.. but we don't need to further weaken the US or alienate pro RKBA Union Members in the process. This political purity stuff be declaring anybody and everybody an enemy of the conservative movement because of a few differences is going to make the conservative movement a powerless poitical minority with more enemies than Friends... especially in this case, when you know the Rank and File have been up to now, on our side.

    Cut the nuts off the Union Bosses by forcing them to put political spending to a vote by our Allies, the Rank and File... don't make enemies out of the Rank and File by broad brushing everybody in the Unions as an enemy and try to take down American Jobs, hurting the Nation itself.... Just my opinion.

    General undirected thoughless anger has never accomplished anything worthwhile... Identify the real problem and the real fix and focus on it... lot of Union guys are a helluva lot more pissed about their Union political Activity than you or I will ever be.. tap into that, and strengthed the RKBA movement at the same time. And try not to ruin this Nation and it's industrial capacity in the process... just my opinion.
    Did a decade of growing up in a heavily unionized town (Texas City - IBEW, Operating Engineers, OCAW, mainly). Most of my friends had dads who worked in the plants and were union members. Saw a lot of what sort of men hold union cards to get and keep a job (even though Texas is a right to work state and closed shops are a no-no, almost all the worker bees carried cards) . Don't hold anything against the average union member - but unions are enemies general of mankind - including most certainly their own members. Union shops have done far more to drive business (manufacturing jobs) out of the USA than any other single factor i can name. But we ain't gonna get rid of them or their corrupt officers and practices.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCQueenie View Post
    Make no mistake. I despise union leadership as much as anyone. Its kind of like Congress and POTUS. Corrupt, greedy, thieves, robbers, and worse. But you don't paint all Americans with the same brush as you do our leadership in DC, do you? Once again, I know from experience how it was and how it would soon become without employees being able to organize against management when necessary. Most won't admit it but without unions, non-union folks would NOT be enjoying the benefits they now enjoy. Thats a plain and simple fact!
    100% true.

    But theres a big difference between collective bargaining and collective extortion. I think Unions have outlived their usefullness by about 40 years.

    Clyde is also 100% true, union activity has driven a ton of industry away from America.


    Just my 2 cents.
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    And carry a big stick

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebohunk View Post
    100% true.

    But theres a big difference between collective bargaining and collective extortion. I think Unions have outlived their usefullness by about 40 years.

    Clyde is also 100% true, union activity has driven a ton of industry away from America.


    Just my 2 cents.
    ...and, if you look at the average RKBA track record of the political candidates that unions support, I'll bet it would be pretty poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MCQueenie View Post
    Most won't admit it but without unions, non-union folks would NOT be enjoying the benefits they now enjoy. Thats a plain and simple fact!
    At last a little sanity.
    Some people seem to think that employers are all a bunch of softies who only have their employee's interests at heart. In reality most of them will exploit employees as far as they are allowed to, and if they can pick off individial employees who don't have any collective voice, so much the better.
    Unions are the one thing that provides a little (and only a little) balance to the robber barons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Austen View Post
    At last a little sanity.
    Some people seem to think that employers are all a bunch of softies who only have their employee's interests at heart. In reality most of them will exploit employees as far as they are allowed to, and if they can pick off individial employees who don't have any collective voice, so much the better.
    Unions are the one thing that provides a little (and only a little) balance to the robber barons.
    Unions would provide a LOT (and not un-needed, either) of counter-balance (and without destroying jobs) IF the leadership didn't take care of itself at the expense of the rank and file.

    Look at the end of the Rock Island Railroad, where the leadership led the rank and file (of some but not all brotherhoods) into a strike because the (bankrupt, in receivership) couldn't pay the "national agreement" wages they demanded. Result: All the jobs, at any wage rate, disappeared with the railroad. It is to be noted that the Rock Island had committed what Samual Gompers called the "one unforgiveable sin" of management: Failure to make a profit.... Modern "labor leaders" don't seem to understand what Gompers (one of the greatest heroes, organizers and leaders in all American union history) did. He understood that (a) even though Labor always wanted "more" (and he sure tried to get it), (b) you always had to leave a profit for the other (management/capital) side and (c) you didn't steal from the rank and file or betray them.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

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