NYPD approved handguns

[Krag]

Are there any NYPD officers out there who can tell me what are the approved duty and off duty handguns? What is the issue cartridge? Are .38 revolvers still allowed?

I've been told that the Kahr PM9 was recently dropped from the OD list. How come?

[stantheman86]

I'm not NYPD but the Glock 17 is the issue duty sidearm, with I believe the 19 for women-small handed officers and plainclothes.

I have heard older cops can still carry the S&W Model 10 or 64, or Colt Official Police . I would gather not many still do but older officers can carry the revolvers if they already have been, but new officers can not choose the revolver over the Glock, kind of like the revolvers are "grandfathered" in for veteran cops who had them for years.

There is some confusion over the "NY-1" marked S&W 60's and 64's with DAO hammers, S&W says that these were bought by the NYPD for sale to officers as off-duty weapons, and they were never intended as duty guns. Many were not sold and returned to S&W for credit,S&W then selling them off as surplus..... and still more were sold off by NYPD cops who had bought them. Up until recently the NY-1 64's were pretty easily found, and still are but not as common as they were.The 60's are even tougher to find.They carry no real collector interest except to avid S&W collectors or police revolver collectors (like me). I think J&G sales bought a bunch of them, and I have yet to find one at a gun show.

I have also seen Ruger SP-101's and Service Sixes with DAO hammers marked NY-1, I assume also for sale as off duty weapons.

I do alot of research about police revolvers, but know next to nothing about any semi auto pistols or off duty carry guns.

[Hawgleg44]

The Glock 17 is not an approved firearm. The three duty pistols approved are the G19, DAO Sig P226 9mm, and the S&W 5946. Off-duty, I'm not sure. Revolvers are only approved for those grandfathered in. There was an article many years ago in the NY Post, I think, titled something like "Some City Officer Still Carrying the .38". I just saw a copy of it last week at home. As officers retire, the number of revolvers allowed on duty are getting smaller and smaller by the year.

[Clyde]

Are there any NYPD officers out there who can tell me what are the approved duty and off duty handguns? What is the issue cartridge? Are .38 revolvers still allowed?

I've been told that the Kahr PM9 was recently dropped from the OD list. How come?

Well, if it was Chicago, I'd say somebody didn't get paid off. Come to think of it - I'd tend to figure the same thing in NYC....

[dfariswheel]

I don't think the Kahr PM series was ever approved by the NYPD.
The Kahr K9 was approved, but there was some sort of mysterious "problem" they supposedly had and I heard it was removed from the approved list, but users could continue using them.
The NYPD seems to have some kind of occasional strange problems with guns that no other department has or anyone can duplicate.
There's some inference that department politics may have been involved.

I've since heard that the problem was the NYPD decided the trigger was too short/light. Kahr responded with the heavier "NYPD" trigger assembly and I've heard they were resubmitted for use.
Whether they have authorized them or not, Kahr does sell a "NYPD Model" Kahr K9.

Here's the current NYPD authorized guns list as of two days ago via a recent NYPD academy grad.

On-duty choices are the Glock 19, Smith & Wesson, and the Sig P226.

Off duty choices are the Glock 26, Sig P239, and 2 smith and Wesson pistols.

He didn't say WHICH S&W models, just that they were the same gun, one black, one stainless.

[Blacksmith04]

The reason that it was droped was that it didn't hold enough ammo for a NYPD cop to shoot every one on the street and still miss their target perp.

[stantheman86]

Oh wow, that's interesting info. I had read some ( I guess now) wrong info that the "issue" sidearm of the NYPD was the Glock 17.

I wonder why a mid-size pistol for uniformed carry? For "commonality" among plainclothes and uniform, to avoid having to issue two sizes of Glocks?

This was the same reason the CZ P-07 "Duty" was developed, I guess to get some of the LE market away from Glock in the US and Europe with a mid-size pistol suitable for uniformed cops and plainclothes.

I guess law enforcement, especially in big cities, is a lot like the US Govt. If a weapon is "dropped" or not adopted it doesn't mean anything is wrong with it, it's just that the right people didn't get paid off. Like how the HK-416 wasn't adopted by the Army and Marines because it "costs more than the M4" , never mind it outperformed the M4 in every aspect, and Spec Ops forces all but dropped the M4 in favor of the 416 anyway. More like the Colt Kool-Aid got splashed around, some palms got greased and Colt keeps another multi-million $ contract to keep cranking out M4's. BTW the govt. just placed an order for 10's of thousands more M4's and Colt is currently working on their "next gen" M4 carbine. Money talks and Colt isn't afraid to throw some around,they've been making M16's and then M4's for decades, and will pay off whoever they have to , to stay in the contract weapons business, they've been doing it since the Civil War why stop now?

[selectfire]

The reason that it was droped was that it didn't hold enough ammo for a NYPD cop to shoot every one on the street and still miss their target perp.

Blacksmith04 lol you're killing me with the humor. and it is on the mark.

[Blacksmith04]

Blacksmith04 lol you're killing me with the humor. and it is on the mark.

Well unlike them I don't miss my mark. I spent 8 yrs up at FT.Drum,Ny. I would go shooting where the local cops did there training. I always enjoyed making them look like dog doo.

[Francis]

I'm not NYPD but the Glock 17 is the issue duty sidearm, with I believe the 19 for women-small handed officers and plainclothes.

I have heard older cops can still carry the S&W Model 10 or 64, or Colt Official Police . I would gather not many still do but older officers can carry the revolvers if they already have been, but new officers can not choose the revolver over the Glock, kind of like the revolvers are "grandfathered" in for veteran cops who had them for years.

There is some confusion over the "NY-1" marked S&W 60's and 64's with DAO hammers, S&W says that these were bought by the NYPD for sale to officers as off-duty weapons, and they were never intended as duty guns. Many were not sold and returned to S&W for credit,S&W then selling them off as surplus..... and still more were sold off by NYPD cops who had bought them. Up until recently the NY-1 64's were pretty easily found, and still are but not as common as they were.The 60's are even tougher to find.They carry no real collector interest except to avid S&W collectors or police revolver collectors (like me). I think J&G sales bought a bunch of them, and I have yet to find one at a gun show.

I have also seen Ruger SP-101's and Service Sixes with DAO hammers marked NY-1, I assume also for sale as off duty weapons.

I do alot of research about police revolvers, but know next to nothing about any semi auto pistols or off duty carry guns.

I'm notan NYPD cop but I did live with one for years and drink with a few regulalry. I'm also a former student at John Jay college of Criminal Justice where I was instructed by NYPD cops. YES .38's are grandfathered in on cops who had them before the switch to 9mm's. That grandfathering also allowed cops trained on the 9mm's to carry a .38 off duty as long as they chose the .38 before 2002. Now no new .38's are allowed. The Issue duty side arms for the NYPD are the GLOCK 19, Smith 5946, and the Sig p226 DAO. the Glock 17 IS NOT ALLOWED. Off duty variety of smith .38's grandfathered, Colt Detective special (my avatar is one that I bought off an MOS retiring form the 103 in 2008) Ruger variant, Khar 9mm's used to be allowed, the Glock 26, sig p239 and some varient of the single column Smith 9mm. Right now the Smith M and P is being evaluated. When they become available, my friend who works in Midtown South is checking one out.


The late term revolvers (issued until 1993) were the Smith Model 10/64/ Ruger Six/SPNY

For stanman, the reason the Glock 17 was not authorized was because they wanted all magazines to have no more than 15 rounds. When RAy Pop eye Kelly was first PC in the early 90's he wanted no more than TEN rounds! Bill Bratton brought the Glock 19 first to the NYC Transit Police, then to the Boston PD, then to the NYPD which merged with the NYC Transit PD and NYC Housing PD under his watch.

[Hawgleg44]

I found this on the S&W Forum. It lists the current approved NYPD off-duty handguns:

The current authorized off duty guns are: Smith & Wesson 3914DAO and 3953, SIG Sauer P239 DAO and Glock 26. Again, the M&P 9c is in the works to replace the 3914 and 3953.

I don't understand the "3914DAO", since that should be a 3954, unless NYPD had Smith do something custom for them. Smith is willing to do that if the order is large enough.

[Francis]

I found this on the S&W Forum. It lists the current approved NYPD off-duty handguns:

The current authorized off duty guns are: Smith & Wesson 3914DAO and 3953, SIG Sauer P239 DAO and Glock 26. Again, the M&P 9c is in the works to replace the 3914 and 3953.

I don't understand the "3914DAO", since that should be a 3954, unless NYPD had Smith do something custom for them. Smith is willing to do that if the order is large enough.

Considering that Smith has been keeping the smith 5946 in production pretty much exclusively for NYPD NYCDOC (between both departments 50000 plus UMOS) I wouldn't be surprised.

[Hawgleg44]

Considering that Smith has been keeping the smith 5946 in production pretty much exclusively for NYPD NYCDOC (between both departments 50000 plus UMOS) I wouldn't be surprised.

I was told that, at least pre-M&P, Smith would produce a run of any 3rd Gen auto for a department as long as the order met their minimum. Surprisingly, it was a reasonable amount, somewhere around 35 units. I've owned several LEO trade-ins that were manufactured years after they were no longer cataloged. One of them was a local Chief's 3954 that he traded in for an M&P 40 Compact when they first came out.

[FIVESHOT]

hmmmm wonder why the glock 17 isnt approved

its probably the most reliable pistol ever made.



FIVESHOT

[Hawgleg44]

hmmmm wonder why the glock 17 isnt approved

its probably the most reliable pistol ever made.



FIVESHOT

According to what I've read, it was solely due to magazine capacity. NYPD did not want a pistol with a magazine which held more than 15 rounds, like the Sig P226DAO 9mm and S&W 5946, to keep it uniform. Stupid reason, but most of their weapon and ammunition decisions have been that way.

[Francis]

hawgleg is right. I'd say the G19 is as reliable or nearly such as the 17. Mine has never let me down. They wanted uniform mag capacity at 15 rounds. I have thought this before though. Think of the amount of female hispanic NYPD cops along with alot of Italians and Puerto Ricans. These are all medium sized people at best. A lot of Asians coming on now. THe Irish hairbag MOS is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

[FIVESHOT]

The 17 and the 19 are equal in reliability





fiveshot

[Krag]

Any updates as regards NYPD on and off duty handguns?

[Jonnin]

Not sure, this may be internet rumor, but I heard that the NYPD modifies all their guns to have a very, very heavy trigger. This came from someone who had a glock with a 10lb trigger spring installed, not sure if this is still done or what the story there was. Maybe someone can comment on that?

[Hawgleg44]

Glock has different disconnector and trigger spring options, the heavier ones called "NY-1" and "NY-2", for obvious reasons. They are 8.5 and 10 pound. The 5946 already has a fairly heavy trigger, too. There are no modifications done to their DAO P226's. They have the stock triggers in them.

The rumor is that NYPD is evaluating the S&W M&P. The trigger won't be a problem since they already have the heavier trigger spring/sear block for the 10 pound MA trigger.

[EricOKC]

The reason that it was droped was that it didn't hold enough ammo for a NYPD cop to shoot every one on the street and still miss their target perp.

Can't they reload and kill more innocent people?

[Clyde]

Can't they reload and kill more innocent people?

I think most of them would have to turn the gun in to the Department armorer to get the empty magazine out and a repalcement inserted. They aren't, doncha know, like gun people or anything like that...

[miben]

not too many years ago I saw young officers in Manhatten with ruger semiautos. probably a p89 or p95.

[thundervalley]

The Kahr K9 is the most reliable pistol ever made. The NYPD version has a longer trigger pull, thats all. If they dropped the K9, it was due to politics, nothing more reliable than a K9.

[Hawgleg44]

The Kahr K9 is the most reliable pistol ever made. The NYPD version has a longer trigger pull, thats all. If they dropped the K9, it was due to politics, nothing more reliable than a K9.

Possibly. Or it could be a bad batch they got, or Kahr modifying the trigger specifically for the NYPD could have caused problems.

Consider when Sig attempted to add a magazine disconnect to one of their pistols for a large agency purchase. It caused reliability problems and the contract was cancelled.

Or when Sig sold almost 3000 P226's to the MA State Police with the U.S. manufactured trigger bar instead of the German part. The U.S. part had clearance cuts removed to save money on manufacturing costs, at the expense of triggers locking up on them. MA State Police made Sig either replace all the trigger bars with German parts or cancel the contract.

Even Glock has had some problems which resulted in cancelled contracts or replacement of every pistol sold under that contract.

It happens. The Kahr MK40 I owned was unreliable and had to make two trips back to the factory before it was repaired. No manufacturer is above having problems now and then, and that's what could have happened to Kahr.

[db2044]

Ran into an NYPD guy practicing on my range once. Tried his NYPD Glock. I cried in sympathy for him. Expecting anyone to hit the target with that atrocious NY trigger is unreasonable.
The gun was absolutely horrible and his performance matched.

[jjk308]

I guess law enforcement, especially in big cities, is a lot like the US Govt. If a weapon is "dropped" or not adopted it doesn't mean anything is wrong with it, it's just that the right people didn't get paid off. Like how the HK-416 wasn't adopted by the Army and Marines because it "costs more than the M4" , never mind it outperformed the M4 in every aspect, and Spec Ops forces all but dropped the M4 in favor of the 416 anyway. More like the Colt Kool-Aid got splashed around, some palms got greased and Colt keeps another multi-million $ contract to keep cranking out M4's....

No graft involved. The people who select small arms are just as opinionated and cranky as so many Gunboards members.

The armed forces hate to mess up their logistics and training with new models of anything unless they are forced to, but that's not the primary reason they stuck with the M4. It was the Colt M4 contract that gave them a long monopoly. It kept Colt suppliers even when they had severe problems producing spec weapons and when rifle production was shifted to others. Finally in 2009 the Army finally got ownership of the M4 design and could buy modified M4s like the HK-416 without wasting money on license fees paid to Colt - those fees probably being a lot of the reason the HK-416 cost more.

[Francis]

on duty its still the glock 19 sig p226 and smith 5946. A childhood friend just graduated the academy and had his first posting for times square this new years. I'll ask him.

[gremlin1945]

So Blachsmith 04,selectfire and ericOKC.So I guess you heros could do better than them under pressure.Go on shooting at your paper targets and and milk containers and other inanimate targets that don't shoot back and leave the job of police work to people who volunteer to do it despite the risks.

[Clyde]

So Blachsmith 04,selectfire and ericOKC.So I guess you heros could do better than them under pressure.Go on shooting at your paper targets and and milk containers and other inanimate targets that don't shoot back and leave the job of police work to people who volunteer to do it despite the risks.

I don't know the history of the individuals you seem to dislike, gremlin - but the many accounts of NYPD shootings don't make that bunch seem to be good and disciplined shooters on the average. I have no reason to believe Blackmith04, selectfire or EricOKC are not good shots and able to handle a shooting if rquired.

Me, i'm lucky. I haven't had to shoot anybody since Vietnam (where I was because I had volunteered for service in the United States Army - despite the risk...). I hope I die of old age and the infirmitiesthereof without ever having to shoot anyone else - but i am prepared to is required, and so are a lot of other folks. Possibly including the three you seem to find offensive.

[gremlin1945]

I don't know the history of the individuals you seem to dislike, gremlin - but the many accounts of NYPD shootings don't make that bunch seem to be good and disciplined shooters on the average. I have no reason to believe Blackmith04, selectfire or EricOKC are not good shots and able to handle a shooting if rquired.

Me, i'm lucky. I haven't had to shoot anybody since Vietnam (where I was because I had volunteered for service in the United States Army - despite the risk...). I hope I die of old age and the infirmitiesthereof without ever having to shoot anyone else - but i am prepared to is required, and so are a lot of other folks. Possibly including the three you seem to find offensive.

I don't dislike them per se.What I didn't like was there snide remarks about NYPD officers.You hear from the lefty media about the cases where things don't go well for the good guys
.I know of more than a few cases where they put the lead right where it belonged.
You mentioned your Vietnam service.Be honest and confirm that when you had to pull the trigger that instinct
was the overwhelming factor that made you do what you had to do.I don't think someone in your position would make the assinine remarks these guys did knowing what you've gone through.That's why I called them paper punchers.
I hope you see the reasoning for my post.

[Francis]

I don't dislike them per se.What I didn't like was there snide remarks about NYPD officers.You hear from the lefty media about the cases where things don't go well for the good guys
.I know of more than a few cases where they put the lead right where it belonged.
You mentioned your Vietnam service.Be honest and confirm that when you had to pull the trigger that instinct
was the overwhelming factor that made you do what you had to do.I don't think someone in your position would make the assinine remarks these guys did knowing what you've gone through.That's why I called them paper punchers.
I hope you see the reasoning for my post.

I will say this. NYPD rigs the guns so that they are hard to shoot for officers. My freind TIm just graduated 20th street and he had a G19 as a civilian and could shoot it well (he was from NJ). The 12lbs trigger was killing TIm's accuracy on his dept authorized G19 (and he's a good shot).

Check out Jim Cirillo. He is my primary source on handguns defensively. He has more gunfights to his credit than any police officer in American history and was a NYC PD officer as well as a member of the Stakeout Squad and the NYPD Range training instructors. He used to get hauled out by Jeff Cooper yet rejected some of Cooper's teachings. He liked to use the concept of "metal on meat" shooting where you use the gun as gross sight super imposed on the target at close range. He also advocated using your nose over the gun when you had to fire it from below eye level. He explains that enough shootouts in poorly lit new york made him realize that only training to shoot bullsyeyes with a partridge sight was a mistake. I recommend his books and video highly.

[cpw]

So Blachsmith 04,selectfire and ericOKC.So I guess you heros could do better than them under pressure.Go on shooting at your paper targets and and milk containers and other inanimate targets that don't shoot back and leave the job of police work to people who volunteer to do it despite the risks.

No one knows how they will react under pressure. Having been familiar with police people locally, only a few were accurate with their pistols.

[Clyde]

I don't dislike them per se.What I didn't like was there snide remarks about NYPD officers.You hear from the lefty media about the cases where things don't go well for the good guys
.I know of more than a few cases where they put the lead right where it belonged.
You mentioned your Vietnam service.Be honest and confirm that when you had to pull the trigger that instinct
was the overwhelming factor that made you do what you had to do.I don't think someone in your position would make the assinine remarks these guys did knowing what you've gone through.That's why I called them paper punchers.
I hope you see the reasoning for my post.

No, don't think it was instinct. It was a lot of practice so that it required no conscious thought after the recognition of the threat, just a matter of pulling the gun, flicking the safety down as I was acquiring the target and then back came the trigger. All happened fast and no thinking. Since i have no idea of what life experience either of the individuals had, I find it difficult to describe them as paper-punchers or otherwise. And, I would say that paper-punching (actually more tin can punching) in quantity saved my a$$ on the day it was for real.

[greendevil41]

As a Deputy Sheriff who carries a Glock 22 daily, agency firearms instructor, Glock certified armorer and Special Response Team member, I may be qualified to address a few points made here. Most agencies have limited budgets, limited facilities and an overwhelming fear of law suits. Once an officer or deputy graduates the academy, they may only qualify with their sidearm once or twice a year. Combat pistol marksmanship is an extremely perishable skill. Many times, it is up to the individual to maintain their own proficiency. Even a good shooter will notice slowed reaction time after a very short period of no range time. If a person was weak in firearm handling to start with, the problem increases exponentially over time. Some officers simply don't worry about it, apparently counting on "Divine Intervention" at the critical moment. Given these factors, one concern of any agency administrator is the much dreaded negligent discharge of a firearm. Hence the NY type trigger. During our armorers' course, there was a Glock fitted with this type of trigger. It was horrendous. I can say that any shooting under stress is hard, but with the referenced triggers installed and all of the related psychological and physiological present in a real world shooting event, accurate shooting with a NY Glock would sorely test the most gifted of shooters. Thankfully, our agency actually retro fitted our Gen IV pistols with an even lighter trigger then the now standard issue.

[Francis]

As a Deputy Sheriff who carries a Glock 22 daily, agency firearms instructor, Glock certified armorer and Special Response Team member, I may be qualified to address a few points made here. Most agencies have limited budgets, limited facilities and an overwhelming fear of law suits. Once an officer or deputy graduates the academy, they may only qualify with their sidearm once or twice a year. Combat pistol marksmanship is an extremely perishable skill. Many times, it is up to the individual to maintain their own proficiency. Even a good shooter will notice slowed reaction time after a very short period of no range time. If a person was weak in firearm handling to start with, the problem increases exponentially over time. Some officers simply don't worry about it, apparently counting on "Divine Intervention" at the critical moment. Given these factors, one concern of any agency administrator is the much dreaded negligent discharge of a firearm. Hence the NY type trigger. During our armorers' course, there was a Glock fitted with this type of trigger. It was horrendous. I can say that any shooting under stress is hard, but with the referenced triggers installed and all of the related psychological and physiological present in a real world shooting event, accurate shooting with a NY Glock would sorely test the most gifted of shooters. Thankfully, our agency actually retro fitted our Gen IV pistols with an even lighter trigger then the now standard issue.

thank you for pointing that out. If I was a NYC cop (ALMOST became one four years ago) i would choose the DAO Sig p226. My old roommie from college chose the smith 5946. Think with that horrendous trigger a heavier gun is better. You are dealing with a city without any gun culture. I imagine that in pennsylvania, you at least get a few cops who like to shoot recreationally. That is very rare in NYC. Then you saddle them with a 12lbs trigger on a glock....

[eastbank]

when the local police dept. went to glocks, their shooting scores went up over revolvers, but the reason was they had to use the same ammo they carried on duty, most had been useing 38spl in their 357,s. the blast from a 4 inch 357 with 357 loads was a big factor. i own a glock 22 in 40s&w and like it. but its not my main carry gun as i don,t like to carry it with the chamber loaded. its not that the gun is not safe,but that i don,t trust myself. eastbank.

[Francis]

when the local police dept. went to glocks, their shooting scores went up over revolvers, but the reason was they had to use the same ammo they carried on duty, most had been useing 38spl in their 357,s. the blast from a 4 inch 357 with 357 loads was a big factor. i own a glock 22 in 40s&w and like it. but its not my main carry gun as i don,t like to carry it with the chamber loaded. its not that the gun is not safe,but that i don,t trust myself. eastbank.

Thats fine, believe me. I'll tell you what I LOVE my Glock but for the longest time I felt the same way aout carrying appendix with it. Especially as someone who likes wheel guns. Thats exactly part of the reason NYPD put 12lbs triggers on glocks. They have alot of AD's anyway. Its also part of the reason I bouht a sig p225 with a 12lbs first trigger pull

[Checkman #111]

I'm an Idaho cop. I just observed my 12th anniversary. I carry the Glock 19 and I am a firearms instructor with my department. I've never been in a shooting, but I know officers who have been. It isn't like the range but putting time in at the range helps - a lot. Most of the folks who are so hyper-critical of the NYPD officers ,and other officers, when a shooting happens are usually anti-cop. That's okay. I was never under the illusion that everyone loves the police. I was in the U.S. Army before pinning on the badge and I understood that not everyone loves the military.Hey I've worked with some officers who are real A-holes. Believe it or not they are jerks to their fellow officers as well. And I'm sure you can find folks who will tell you what an A******* I am.

Real world shootings are chaotic. In a city like New york where you have literally tens of thousands of people (at times) within a few city blocks and they are surrounded by steel and concrete you are looking at a chaotic situation. Especially when the bad guy is moving and shooting back - unlike a range. Even a high speed range like Thunder Ranch.

That 12 pound trigger that the NYPD insists on sucks. Many of the NYPD officers are not gun people. They don't shoot much. Here in gun-friendly Idaho many of my fellow officers are not big gun people. Even the guys who hunt only pull out their rifles a few times a year to sight it in and then they tote it around in the woods a few times during the season. I'm considered to be a gun-nut by many of my fellow officers because I collect handguns and enjoy shooting.

However I've never been in a real world shooting so I don't know how I would do either and it won't hurt my feelings if I never find out.

[moosedog]

"The reason that it was droped was that it didn't hold enough ammo for a NYPD cop to shoot every one on the street and still miss their target perp."

There is a huge difference between punching paper and being in a gun fight.

[Clyde]

"The reason that it was droped was that it didn't hold enough ammo for a NYPD cop to shoot every one on the street and still miss their target perp."

There is a huge difference between punching paper and being in a gun fight.

Yes, there is, which is why it is unconsionable for police departemnts to NOT insist on the patrol officers burning a LOT of ammo every couple of months in tactical scenarios.

[Checkman #111]

Yes, there is, which is why it is unconsionable for police departemnts to NOT insist on the patrol officers burning a LOT of ammo every couple of months in tactical scenarios.

Sure, but where will all that money come from? My department has sixty-five officers. Fifty of them carry the Glock 21. If they were to burn up 250 45 rounds "every couple of months" using just Blazer ammo you're still looking at 12,500 cartridges and if they do that every quarter you're looking at 50,000 rounds annually . Then throw in the ten of us who carry the G19 (for various reasons) and before you know it you have expended 60,000 cartridges in a year . Now let us just say that the department has to pay (only) $100 per 1,000 rounds (since it comes to us in 1,000 rounds per case) and you have ............well a whole lot of money. Now imagine spending that much money four times a year. Good grief.

My department's entire annual budget last year was approximately $1,500,000. Out of that money we have to make payroll (and besides the sixty officers the department employs ten non-sworn personnel, gasoline for the cars, utilities for the building, non firearms training (there is more to police work than just shooting) and so on. The department simply can't expend that much of it's annual budget on just ammo. Oh and don't forget we also have 12 gauge shotguns and AR-15 rifles and a couple Remington 700's.

I don't know of any police department that can afford to burn up that much of it's annual budget on ammo alone. Yes it's important and yes it can be argued that it's cheap when looking at the possible expenses that can happen from a civil lawsuit, but we live in the real world - and you can't budget on hypothetical alone. So as a firearms instructor I urge officers to do their own practice on their own dime. I urge them to buy a 22 pistol and at least do training with lower budget 22LR ammo. I urge them to do dry-fire practice. All stuff I do. Some of them do it and others don't.

Oh and incidentally when I was in the Army the situation wasn't any different. We got out to the range maybe four times a year to shoot our small arms. But two of those times was just for qualification and nothing else. No I wasn't infantry (Military Intelligence and Armor before that) but we were still carrying firearms. Face it guys firearms are expensive. The weapons are expensive to purchase and it's expensive to feed them. Police departments are public agencies that use taxpayer money to operate. They have many different expenses and at least here in Idaho we are expected to account for where that money goes. You may not like this (and you may be anti-police/government) and you may say it's "just an excuse", but it isn't. It's a fact and it's always been that way.

[Clyde]

Sure, but where will all that money come from? My department has sixty-five officers. Fifty of them carry the Glock 21. If they were to burn up 250 45 rounds "every couple of months" using just Blazer ammo you're still looking at 12,500 cartridges and if they do that every quarter you're looking at 50,000 rounds annually . Then throw in the ten of us who carry the G19 (for various reasons) and before you know it you have expended 60,000 cartridges in a year . Now let us just say that the department has to pay (only) $100 per 1,000 rounds (since it comes to us in 1,000 rounds per case) and you have ............well a whole lot of money. Now imagine spending that much money four times a year. Good grief.

My department's entire annual budget last year was approximately $1,500,000. Out of that money we have to make payroll (and besides the sixty officers the department employs ten non-sworn personnel, gasoline for the cars, utilities for the building, non firearms training (there is more to police work than just shooting) and so on. The department simply can't expend that much of it's annual budget on just ammo. Oh and don't forget we also have 12 gauge shotguns and AR-15 rifles and a couple Remington 700's.

I don't know of any police department that can afford to burn up that much of it's annual budget on ammo alone. Yes it's important and yes it can be argued that it's cheap when looking at the possible expenses that can happen from a civil lawsuit, but we live in the real world - and you can't budget on hypothetical alone. So as a firearms instructor I urge officers to do their own practice on their own dime. I urge them to buy a 22 pistol and at least do training with lower budget 22LR ammo. I urge them to do dry-fire practice. All stuff I do. Some of them do it and others don't.

Oh and incidentally when I was in the Army the situation wasn't any different. We got out to the range maybe four times a year to shoot our small arms. But two of those times was just for qualification and nothing else. No I wasn't infantry (Military Intelligence and Armor before that) but we were still carrying firearms. Face it guys firearms are expensive. The weapons are expensive to purchase and it's expensive to feed them. Police departments are public agencies that use taxpayer money to operate. They have many different expenses and at least here in Idaho we are expected to account for where that money goes. You may not like this (and you may be anti-police/government) and you may say it's "just an excuse", but it isn't. It's a fact and it's always been that way.

Nope, I am not anti-police. nor am I anti-government, though I have a lot of problems with some things government does.

It is my opinion that IF we are going to give cops guns and the right to carry and use them, then we, as a society, have a duty to insure they (the cops) are properly trained and the training is kept up. Reckon we need to cur some of the frills (school athletic programs, trips for politicals, etc.) and spend the money on ammo.

i spent around a decade on active duty, including a Vietnam tour. I am quite familiar with the amount of shooting most military members do (or perhaps, more accurately, don't do). Unless things have changed (and from what i hear, they haven't) most troops who aren't assigned to Infantry and perhaps armor units fire only for familiarization once they are out of advanced training. i don't like that, and don't approve, but i don't get to make the call.

[Jonnin]

The problem is universal, it has nothing to do with the anti gun 'tude in NY or NYC anyway. I live in TN where probably 30% of the population at least owns a gun, nearly 10% have a carry permit, and loads of people shoot a lot of ammo up as a hobby. Yet one of my friends at the range is a shooting instructor for our local police and he said that around 50% of the officers only shoot enough to qualify and of those, a "too high" number of them have to spend some time with him one on one to get enough instruction to qualify. I have even watched him do the one on one with a guy. The officer in training was fumbling his draws and his target, at a fairly short distance, looked like it had been hit with buckshot at 200 yards. Im sure he is a great guy but I would rather manage on my own than have this guy shoot a perp off me. The instructor, however, can empty 15 into the vitals at an alarming rate of fire, the man is GOOD.

[Checkman #111]

Clyde I didn't think you were anti-cop, but I did get that impression from a few of the other posters. I am just tryng explain things. I really don't have a solution for the situation. I like to shoot and I enjoy collecting firearms. That right there is important. But many of my fellow officers just aren't into firearms. They are into other aspects of law enforcement. for example I am not the UFC type. I can handle myself, but it isn't my area and I train in it when I have to train in hand to hand. I practice now and again, but some of my fellow officers do it two and three times a week. But I don't see them at the range. Other officers live for the weight room and they have fearsome strength. I work out by swimming, eliptical machines, walking (I have a bad back so running hurts) and the rowing machine. I'm fit, but I'll never mistaken for a bodybuilder. Anyway it is a dilemma and one that has been around for a long time.