Chinese Origin Mauser Stock Engraving ID - Page 3
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  1. #91
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    It could be read either way depending on where and when it was written. This was discussed off and on here over the years. There is a Henan Province, but the Chinese authorities organized militias locally, not at the province level. One or more counties named Nan He was/were noted.

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    can anyone identify this marking??
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails chinese mauser.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby00000 View Post
    can anyone identify this marking??
    From top to bottom
    cao lian 'drill' or 'practise'


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  5. #94
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    ahh man your saying this was just used as a drill rifle for training. no wonder the barrels shot out

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    It could be read either way depending on where and when it was written. This was discussed off and on here over the years. There is a Henan Province, but the Chinese authorities organized militias locally, not at the province level. One or more counties named Nan He was/were noted.
    A quick search turns up a Nanhe County in Guizhou and in Hebei. Yes, you're probably right, that's most likely the case given that the mark on the otherside if the stock is read left to right. This probably dates it to after the mid-50s and the standardisation of the written language.

    Having said that, while militia units were organised locally, they would have had some higher level of organisation for supply and logistics purposes, through the PLA and maybe the Public Security Bureau, given that the militia was tasked with similar public security duties now tasked to the People's Armed Police. But I've never seen markings that indicate PLA Military Region or a very clear reference to a province (Public Security Bureau).

    It would be nice to see more organisational markings like these, to get a better idea of the range of styles and content, but online examples are very few and far between.


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  7. #96
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    Looks like a standard "Keep and Utilize"





    Then another brand on the right side, along with painted characters.



  8. #97
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    The painting is probably the last owner's name, I read "Li De Cai". The symbol has a char in it, probably "Gi"-luck? that is just a guess.

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    Thank you.

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    Here is another one needing translation. It is on a Lowe gew 88.

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    It is "Kweizhou Huang Ping County" and "People's Militia".

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    It uses another word to mean "militia"? That is not Min Bing. Interesting.

  13. #102
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    Well, direct translation would be "Armed Forces".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    It uses another word to mean "militia"? That is not Min Bing. Interesting.
    You're quite right, it's not 'Militia' (Min Bing) at all. It says Ren Min Wu Zhuang, which is short for Ren Min Wu Zhuang Bu, the 'People's Armed Forces Department'. It could be described as 'military services department'.

    The Wu Zhuang is a committee at the local government level (municipal government, small towns, rural county) jointly staffed by the civilian government Communist Party leadership and People's Liberation Army officers, which works in co-ordination with central authorities in the People's Armed Forces Committee. At the local government level, the Wu Zhuang does 'military work', in that it administers and supervises (in political and military terms) the People's Militia (Min Bing), military training at junior and senior high schools and universities, peacetime recruitment into the PLA, wartime mobilisation, maintains administrative lists of reservists, veterans etc.

    A rifle marked like this might be a training rifle assigned to the Wu Zhuang, issued to end users for training and then returned to armoury. Maybe for high school and university training.


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    This Hanyang 88 rifle supposedly came back from Korea.

    "I'm not really certain but it may be 貴州 黄平縣 (Guizhou Province, Huangping County) on the top, and 人民武装 (People's Armed Police) on the bottom." - Edokko
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails hanyang88.JPG  


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    The People's Militia & People's Volunteer Army are different concepts. It can be just either one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kablam View Post
    This Hanyang 88 rifle supposedly came back from Korea.

    "I'm not really certain but it may be 貴州 黄平縣 (Guizhou Province, Huangping County) on the top, and 人民武装 (People's Armed Police) on the bottom." - Edokko
    The marking is the same as the Hanyang 88 a few post previously, (the rack numbers are quite close) and I commented on the marking of that one. Edokko is close, but no cigar. Guizhou Huangping Xian(County) and Renmin Wu Zhuang 武装 (People's Armed Forces Department). It's not possible for it to be a Korean bring back. The People's Armed Forces Department was organised around 1958, so the marking probably dates to around that time or later.

    It's not the People's Armed Police either, which was established in 1982 as the Renmin Wu Zhuang Jingcha 人民武装警察 , but normally referred to as the Wu Jing 武警, well into the Type 56 SKS and AK as standard issue.


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    Thanks for the translation. That's why I added "supposedly". Do you know if these rifles were actually being fired in training, or were they mostly carried?

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    Hard to say, but the training organised by the People's Armed Forces Dept was more military familiarisation and introduction. Some range shooting and drill might have been the general level of use in this context.


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    The first picture is the reciever, the second two are on the right side of the stock.

    On the reciever, it also says very faintly: 34-9
    The serial number is N6687

    The first mark on the stock is a six pointed star with a 1 inside it. The second is very faint. It's hard to make out in the picture, but maybe it is a common mark. If not I can try to rub it onto paper with a crayon, so that it can be read. My camera is really bad, and these were the best it could do.
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    The last of the first arsenal ZZS. Receiver with Gear mark & Bow/Arrow (Ordnance Marking), banner with ZZS in it and a 5-point star(the first arsenal mark) on top. S/N is in line with that period. The marking on the last picture may be "Inspected", really too faint to be 100% sure.

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    So, this rifle was made during the 1940s? I'm not very knowledgeable about Chinese weapons.

    Also, is the six pointed star on the stock indicating First Arsenal, because it has a 1 inside it?

    I'll also try to get a rubbing of the final marking, not sure if I have crayons!
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  23. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puska 35.M View Post
    So, this rifle was made during the 1940s? I'm not very knowledgeable about Chinese weapons.

    Also, is the six pointed star on the stock indicating First Arsenal, because it has a 1 inside it?

    I'll also try to get a rubbing of the final marking, not sure if I have crayons!
    Add 11 to the year date to convert to western calendar. (34-9) + 11 = 45-9 or September 1945.

    For stock markings, keep in mind that the stock may not be original to the receiver unless they both have matching serial numbers. I don't recall seeing serial numbers on a Chinese stock.

    With Chinese rifles, almost anything goes. If rifle "A" had the stock replaced with stock "B", early stock markings would not be original to the rifle - but later militia stock markings could be original to the "A/B" combination rifle.
    Last edited by geladen; 05-28-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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  24. #113
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    Here is a Hanyang type with an unfamiliar crest:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  25. #114
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    Yes, this is not a Mauser but a Lee Enfield No4Mk1 (corrected). It does have a Chinese stamping, so hopefully not too OT:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I might add the calligraphy is very elegant.

    Another odd thing: it was made by Savage and dated 1942, but the usual lend-lease "U S PROPERTY" stamp is gone or missing.
    Last edited by ryg; 05-29-2012 at 10:14 PM.

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    That just goes to show that the Chinese used at least one of everything. I'm still looking for a Chinese marked 1847 Colt Walker.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

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  27. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    Here is a Hanyang type with an unfamiliar crest:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Hanyang1_6.jpg 
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ID:	551059Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	551061
    This one said made in Shanxi but I don't think it was made in Shanxi Arsenal because they're making T38 copies there. The militia unit marking was also in Shanxi, it stayed local.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    Yes, this is not a Mauser but a Lee Enfield No4Mk1 (corrected). It does have a Chinese stamping, so hopefully not too OT:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	No4Mk1Chinese 01.jpg 
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ID:	551067Click image for larger version. 

Name:	No4Mk1Chinese 03.jpg 
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    I might add the calligraphy is very elegant.

    Another odd thing: it was made by Savage and dated 1942, but the usual lend-lease "U S PROPERTY" stamp is gone or missing.
    Supposedly these were brought back from India by the Chinese Expedition Forces. The stock said "For Education Purpose". These were supplied by the Brits. but I think it should still have the "US Property" marking unless they're early British purchase?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms View Post
    This one said made in Shanxi but I don't think it was made in Shanxi Arsenal because they're making T38 copies there. The militia unit marking was also in Shanxi, it stayed local.
    Note the date: 32-12 (December 1943). Didn't the Taiyuan Arsenal in Shanxi get dispersed and stopped making T38 Arisakas when it was overrun by the Japanese in about 1937? Could this have been made under the Nanjing collaborationist regime?

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    Right, the Shanxi Arsenal evacuated already by then. Shanxi province fell under the juristiction of the Northern China Expedition Forces, not Nanjing (Southern China Expedition Forces). There were a lot of resistance units operated in the area, this probably was made by one of there.

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    here is a 1888 i got not to long ago...

    I think i got the one in the middle figured out, but I am lost with the others...


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    Quote Originally Posted by YellowSled View Post
    here is a 1888 i got not to long ago...

    I think i got the one in the middle figured out, but I am lost with the others...


    here is a few more pics
    here is a few more pics..
    First pic is the top cartouche


    Next 2 are of the other side.



    Last one is a m1930 FN contract chinese Mauser i have

  33. #122
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    YellowSled,
    your pics are not showing.
    Firearms

  34. #123
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    I recently saw a Hanyang rifle with Henan Militia branded on the stock. The other side of the stock is branded with a county unit and that county is in Henan province. Therefore, I'm settling the mystery that Henan Militia indeed indicating the ownership of Henan Provincial Militia.

  35. #124

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    Hi az, I've been reading through this thread and saw that you mentioned a 5 point star stamp on parts of a rifle. Would you be able to send me a picture with an example of this star on a part? I have a Banner Mauser with a small 5 pointed star stamped over German proof marks for example on the metal disks in the stock etc. Mainly the metal pieces on the stock. I have not been able to find an example of this stamp anywhere, thus my curiosity if it is the same type of stamp.

    Thanks.

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    Hi guys, this is a 1936 Gongxian ZZS, passing to Taiwan, with some stock markings I can't figure out.

    The first looks like the Chinese gong 工 above the number 101. Any ideas what this means?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is a circular marking on the butt, which is so heavily sanded that it really isn't intelligible, but I wonder if this rings a bell at all, or looks like it maybe something known?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have a mauser from China, with a symbol on the stock same as the 2nd picture in #15 posting: a cross next to lines, all in a circle. any one know what it may represent?

    It was made in Germany with the Repulican star (12 tips) stamped on receiver. The bolt is bent matching the stock. I recall the numbers of the stock and on the metal parts match.

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    I believe that's the unit marking, most likely the 12th Army, there were several units under that designation under ChiCom and Nationalist.

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    Updated May 10, 2013

    Responses received to my postings on both the Military Mauser and Japanese forums, for assistance in the translation of markings on the stock of my 1871/84 German Mauser, tend to suggest the markings are in fact Chinese. It is interestingly noted that while the script reads better in Chinese, most responders find the cartouches themselves as either unusual or Japanese looking.

    I would appreciate any information that can be provided as to what Chinese military or governmental unit and sub unit, possibly in the late 1890's or early 1900's, may equate to the mauser's three stock imprints of 昌 北常 and possible (parital imprint of 北関 or 拱北关 or 瑛 地開 ). Thanks for your assistance.



    Military Mauser Forum -

    These are Chinese characters, but I can't figure out what they mean on this rifle. The first is stylised, it could be anything. The second is 地常 which doesn't mean a lot to me. The third is possibly 瑛 followed by 地開 which taken together might be a name. I would guess that these might be Japanese inscriptions - which might make sense in the light of the Japanese occupation of Thailand?


    Japanese Forum -

    Member - Those cartouches are very unusual to say the least. From the markings I am unsure whether they are of Japanese origin or not, as they are not the usual words I could associate with locations in Japan or other Japanese origin IDs. The rectangular brand looks to read either 北常 or 比常. The oval is a difficult one as the branding is not complete, especially the top most character is tough to make out. What ever it is the last two characters "seems" to be 北関. The stylized character within the circle looks to be 昌. Again, none of these words gives any good hint on a Japanese origin at this time (yet).

    Member - I'm going to go with Chinese on this one. Both 北常村 (Běi Cháng Cūn) and 北関 (Běiguān) are two areas only separated by 200 miles or so in north-central China. The cartouches certainly look Japanese, but most Japanese cartouches indicate the destination and purpose of the weapon, usually a school and/or for training, et cetera. Following the same logic, my interpretation is that this rifle changed hands between both locations (which are fairly close apart), and were stamped accordingly. The 昌 meaning "prospering" or "beautiful" just doesn't give off a Japanese vibe when stamped on the weapon's stock. Being a 71/84 Mauser, it would seem to be more appropriate in Chinese hands, and made its way down to Siam.

    Member - These are Chinese characters, the word in circle is 昌, maybe the mark for a certain large military unit, the two words in the rectangular are 北常,maybe a branch unit, and the oval ones are 拱北关,indicating a military pass (usually a historically important place where armies were stationed and defended their land), now a customs pass (customs office/location which administrates the import and export affairs) in Chinese Zhuhai City.

    Member - His interpretation is probably the most accurate. The "old" characters are formed/written the same way in Chinese and Japanese, but usually have totally different meanings, and pronunciations. The mainland Chinese stopped using them after WWII and went to simplified characters; though the Taiwanese kept the old characters. Just to make things more complicated the dialects from north to south and east to west are not understood by all Chinese, and the characters have different pronunciations and meanings. I think you have Chinese markings and can go with the interpretation that the rifle is marked with unit, sub-unit, and named to a military check point in Zhuhai City.


    04-27-2013, 09:01 AM#1
    ventres2004

    Translation help

    Originally Posted by ventres2004
    Awhile back I purchased a German 1871/84 Mauser with various markings. It was manufactured in Spandau in 1887 with its buttplate reflecting the marking of what I have been told is the German 85th Infantry Regiment. The mauser also bears a Siamese (present day Thailand) "Charkra" imprint (government acceptance stamp) which suggests its later export to Siam, with my speculating this was done in the 1890's or early years of 1900. Interestingly, the rifle also bears what I believe are Chinese imprints on its stock that would suggest that some years after its arrival in Siam, it made its way from Siam/Thailand to China for possible use by the Chinese military. I was wondering if anyone on the forum could confirm the mauser's stock markings as Chinese and possibly a time period if they have such meaning. This would further allow me to track the mauser's travel and history. Thanks.


    Attached Thumbnails

    Last edited by ventres2004; Yesterday at 08:30 AM.



    The mauser's receiver is stamped with the Siamese Charkra as shown below. It is the same style Charkra as on my 1903 Springfield Mark 1.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Charkra.jpg  

    Chahkra.jpg  

    Last edited by ventres2004; 05-14-2013 at 03:34 PM.

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    I have added several clearer pictures of the second and third markings.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails SANY3819.JPG  

    SANY3820 - Copy.JPG  

    SANY3958.JPG  

    SANY3959.JPG  

    SANY3961.JPG  

    SANY3974.JPG  

    SANY3976.JPG  

    SANY4005.JPG  

    SANY4008.JPG  

    mau-3.jpg  

    mau-4.JPG  

    Last edited by ventres2004; 06-04-2013 at 05:06 PM.

  41. #130
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    Gong Bei Guan (拱北關) is place name located in Zhu Hai (珠海) City, Guang Dong provice.
    Bei Chang (北常), I'll venture to guess it means the regular troops/garrison troops stationed in Gong Bei Guan.
    The one letter is Ming (明, Sun & Moon), I'm not sure the significance. Maybe it is the short name of the unit of above.

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    Firearms: Thank you (and all others who can translate) for offering your services. I recently got this 1888 commission rifle and submit these pictures for translation. The stock markings in the first and the barrel shank/receiver characters are of good qulaity. additional characters on the stock just above the main marks are hard to see an I suspect may be someone's name, but? they may be to faint to translate. the same is true for the mark from the left rear of the stock. whatever you can provide is greatly appreciated. In particular, can any of these marks be associated with the red guard period or any periodClick image for larger version. 

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  43. #132
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
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    Phoenix, AZ
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    The big oval brand is the "He Nan Militia", that's an easy one. The name above it said "Lai Chi Tang", not clear to me, probably an organization or a gangster organization, the interesting thing is that was written in simplified Chinese, contradict with the time frame when it was introduced. The 4th pic I can only make out the first char said "Bo", looks like someone's name. The 3rd pic I can't make out anything although there are some writting there.

  44. #133
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    Mar 2011
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    new mexico
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms View Post
    The big oval brand is the "He Nan Militia", that's an easy one. The name above it said "Lai Chi Tang", not clear to me, probably an organization or a gangster organization, the interesting thing is that was written in simplified Chinese, contradict with the time frame when it was introduced. The 4th pic I can only make out the first char said "Bo", looks like someone's name. The 3rd pic I can't make out anything although there are some writting there.
    This is awesome to get so much information. thank you. This He Nan Militia mark, does this date to that militia in Henan province in the 1920s to 30s, or to a later date or even into the time after 1949? Since the other writing may be an organization or a gangster organization could that reference the private militias in the mid 20s? What time frame is contradicted by the simplified Chinese in "Lai Chi Tang" compared to the He Nan Militia mark? What do you make of the characters in the 2nd photo cut into the barrel/receiver shank? This Chinese made 1888 rifle seems to be full of many histories. Your translation has opened up new research and book purchases. thank you again. FYI It is not import marked, the receiver is unmarked and the bolt is correct but mismatched.

  45. #134
    geladen's Avatar
    geladen is online now Platinum Bullet Member and Curmudgeon-in-Training
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    Apr 2009
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    Your first book purchase should be China's Small Arms of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) by Firearms (Bin Shih).

    Regards,
    Bill
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

    Regards,
    Bill


    All my Mausers are here (Index is in post #1):
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers

    III, GOA Life





  46. #135

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    Good suggestion Bill.

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