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Thread: Needle Rifles

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by G. A-R-West View Post
    Do any members know if 'The Gun Report' is still publishing?

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Due to non-appearance of issues a compatriot telephoned GR yesterday and spoke with George Hoyem, who said that GR "has closed its doors." RIP; a good source for many years.

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    During a private visit to the Dutch army museums store rooms I managed to play with a Russian Karl/Carl/Karle needle gun. It is beautifully made, neat and selfcontained, with a rubber obturator ring behind a flat bolt head similar to the Chassepot. The bolt is also self cocking unlike the Dreyse, Chassepot and Carcano. Gods knows how they got hold of one, the rest are probably in a warehouse in deepest coldest Russia awaiting redeployment because I have never seen one for sale.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FABIAN23 View Post
    .. I managed to play with a Russian Karl/Carl/Karle needle gun...
    Fabian,

    Did you manage to take a picture of the cartridge? I have only seen drawings and poor B&W photos. The Russians claim that Karle's round gave much better obturation than Chassepot's.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

  4. #49
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    There was no cartridge, just the rifle. Did the cartridge have an obsturating base as well? If so I guess that the combination of the obturator ring plus the cartridge obturating base could combine to make a very good seal, with perhaps less stress on the rubber of the obturator ring than the Chassepot.
    Last edited by FABIAN23; 08-10-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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    IIRC, the cartridge had a thick cardboard base. I will check Fyodorov's books when I get home.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

  6. #51
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    Scans from Fyodorov's book "Evolution of Small Arms", Vol. 1 and from George Hoyem's "The History & Development of Small Arms Ammunition", Vol. 2:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karle 1 (Fyodorov).jpg   Karle 2 (Fyodorov).jpg   Karle (G Hoyem).jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    For members interested in shooting the Dreyse needle-ignition, there is short footage of a Dreyse M.60 Fusiler-Gewehr with its Fusiler-Seitengewehr fixed on YouTube.

    G and L A-R-West

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    Default Shooting Dreyse Fusilier M/60 and Jagerbuchse M/65 with fixed bayonets

    Captured video frames of a Dreyse Fusilier M/60 and a Jagerbuchse M/65 with their respective bayonets fixed to evaluated how fixed bayonet effected ballistics.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse 65 bench rested with fixed bayonet.jpg   Dreyse 60 bench rested with baynet fixed 2.jpg  

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    Default Caracano needle ignion video

    Gentlemen,

    Downloaded short video of an Italian Carcano Modello 1867 needle ignition rifle with a duplictate of the 'Nessler Palottola adottata nel 1867' (square cavity bullet).

    The cartridge is self-obturating, meaning that there is no breech seal. It is similar to the Dreyse Patrone M/72 for the Beck system, in that the base of the cartridge seals the breech. On ignition, the base of the cartridge is left to be forced out by the next round, thus lubricating and sweeping the bore of any residual fouling.

    Next video evaluation, featuring bayonet fixed and rifle's accessories.

    G and L A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Carcano muzzle flash bench rest.jpg  

  11. #56
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    Downloaded part 2 Caracano needle ignition with bayonet.

    G and L A-R-West

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    We are tentatively looking for a publisher to collate our work into book form on needle ignition systems featuring the Dreyse, possibly including the Mle 1866 Chassepot rifle and carbine plus M/67 Carcano if need be.

    The work covers all Dreyse military arms commencing with the M/41 Infantry rifle, M/54 Jager rifle, M/57 Carbine, M/60 Fusilier rifle, M/62 Infantry rifle, M/65 Jager rifle (Beck and standard) and the last In the Dreyse system, the M/69 Pioneer rifle. All associated bayonets, sidearms, accessories, tools, cartridge construction including the experimental sabot-less cartridge intended for the M/49 Jager rifle and ballistic performances (with and without bayonet attached) revealed. Cartridges covered: M/41, M/47, M/55 and M/55 carbine and finally M/72 for the Beck conversion. All cartridges mentioned have been faithfully reconstructed and evaluated.

    The work includes cross-sections of various actions, line drawings, colour plates of soldiers and their equipment (slings, ammuntion pouches, brass muzzle and leather rear sight protectors) and battle scenes, photographs and colour illustrations of all the issue models and some prototypes.

    Attachment: Dreyse M/65 Jager rifles and some associated items.

    G and L A-R-West FHBSA
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse 65 collage HBSA.jpg  

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    I hope you find one and if I were you would also take the other needle fire rifles into the book.

    I will buy your book ! at least one customer found

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    I'll get a copy too w/o a hint of hesitation!

    Cheers,

    JH

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    Thank you Mezigot and Feuerwerker for your kind comments,

    It is a pity that this work will probably end up unpublished.

    It could be that there is not enough general interest in these pre-metallic cartridge bolt action breechloaders to warrant publication.

    Best regards,

    G and L A-R-West

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    I'd pick up a copy without a doubt! might get more interest if you were to publish a german language version as well

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    Well, in France there are some publishers that would definitely put something like that out. And even it it was to fail to come out as a book (which I doubt), it is the kind of work that would come out as a "hors-serie" edition in one of the gun magazines such as La Gazette des Armes.

    Best of luck in your endeavours to get it published, I will get a copy regardless of the format.

    Best regards,

    JH

  18. #63
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    I have 2 needle guns that I'm trying to return to the world of shooting:

    German Dreyse 1862 - missing needle & needle guide sleeve
    Italian Carcano 1867 - missing everything inside the outer bolt sleeve/handle

    Does anyone have leads to parts, or at least drawings of parts so I can have them made?
    I do have photographs of the parts needed.

    Thanks much.

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    its not allowed to make the link here but on a well known german gun auction site there is a rare Doersch & v. Baumgarten replica needle rifle now. the original rifle will be impossible to find and no, its not mine.
    Last edited by feuerwerker; 01-25-2013 at 08:39 AM.

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    Default Exhibit your needle ignition rifles and carbines

    Gentlemen,

    We thought this might be a good opportunity to exhibit your needle ignition rifles, carbines, associated accessories and bayonets for an exchange of information on these increasingly popular systems.

    Starting off with Mle. 1866 Chassepot Cavalry (marked for the 1st Hussars) and Gendarmerie carbines which had been featured in the collectors forum.

    G and L A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Martini collage definitive.jpg  

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    Default Exhibiting Needle-ignition rifles and carbines

    Sorry wrong picture slipped in whilst downloading (Martine carbines).

    Computer gremlins!

    Here are the correct ones.

    G and L A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chassepot carb 3.jpg  

  22. #67
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    Default Book on the Dreyse system, covering cartrige construction and range evaluation

    Gentlemen,

    To all those interested in the Dreyse, an update regarding publishing our research on the Dreyse needle ignition system. We have received some response, and when completed shall be sending a draft to be approved by an interested publisher.

    Attachment: The last military Dreyse of the system, the M/69 Pioneer rifle with its saw-back bayonet. To be ballistically evaluated chambering the M/55 Patrone as soon as the weather warms up.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse 69 with bayonet.jpg  

  23. #68

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    Hello everyone! I have just purchased a Chasseport Needle rifle. It has not yet arrived. However, I am trying to get a head start on my hobby! I've acquired some parts (sans a Needle, the original evidently works but I am NOT going to shoot with it). I have cartridge paper but I want to acquire original bullets and/or an original mold. Also, I would like to purchase several needles. I found a French website but they want almost 60 euro a needle!!!

    I will post pictures and post when the gun arrived. I got it relatively cheap because a previous owner (a museum I believe) got it reblued unfortunately.

  24. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by repman View Post
    .. I found a French website but they want almost 60 euro a needle!!
    If you mean Le Hussard I am afraid that's the only game in town...
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

  25. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    If you mean Le Hussard I am afraid that's the only game in town...
    NO they are closed! I meant here http://www.galeriedemars.fr/

  26. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    If you mean Le Hussard I am afraid that's the only game in town...
    No it is a different website. The forum will not let me link here. Le hussard is closed

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    How about these guys?
    http://www.rh-custom.se/product.php?id_product=16

    Barring that, if it is a simple piece I may be able to turn it on my lathe.
    I'd at least be willing to give it a try.
    Will trade a German used and marked, all matching (by the Germans), good condition, M95M with original German added French sling for a M95 sniper.
    Looking for unusual, Czech, and 1913 or earlier M95s and early Czech 98/22s (Vz 98).
    Just running along ... at a tortoise pace. I'm just too busy and too slow.
    You can view pics of my collection here.

  28. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreenMan View Post
    How about these guys?
    http://www.rh-custom.se/product.php?id_product=16

    Barring that, if it is a simple piece I may be able to turn it on my lathe.
    I'd at least be willing to give it a try.
    I have sent them emails for the past week to no avail. Hopefully I can get a response soon! I was referred to a book that evidently has exact specs for the Chasseport so hopefully I can construct the dang thing ha.

    Part of the fun of this gun is getting all the pieces! When I get the specs I may take you up on your kind offer ha!

  29. #74
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    Repman,

    If you send a PM, we shall post you the exact needle and obturator dimensions.

    G and L A-R-West

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    Repman,

    I have found two sources of information on the Chassepot needle and obturator. First is an image with dimensions. Don't ask me from which site I have obtained it, I can't remember. Might be even from a previous post on Chassepots on this forum.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The second picture gives you a DIY hint. Some guy is building the Chassepot needles from TIG welding rods (if I recollect correctly, it was the stainless steel rods). They have to be the right diameter and the retainer bit needs to be soldered/welded onto one end. If you have access to the right tools, you could build your own needles.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Chassepot Needle.jpg 
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  31. #76
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    Default Chassepot needle and obturator dimensions

    Dimensions copied from engineering drawings. (enginering drawings taken whilst at Châtellerault arsenal).

    Note: When not in use, obturators must be stored free from oil, if not this causes rapid deterioration. Also before shooting, check that no oil residue remains in chamber as the obturator will not function efficiently.

    The life of the obturator if correctly maintained was in excess of 100 rounds, the front being shielded by a mobile bolt-head (tête-mobile) and only a small portion of its periphery exposed to the flame.

    Never use worn needles as this will allow fouling to enter the bolt-head and make cocking difficult and slow down needle strike.

    G. and L A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chassepot obturator and needle scan.jpg  

  32. #77

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    Much appreciated guys! This is a great hobby and I cannot wait to take her to the range. We will see how effective I am with all of these drawings.

    I'm on to the cartridge making step....... and that is intimidating!

    This is a great forum!

  33. #78

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    .459 round ok to use in this weapon?

    Making my own cartridges and its working. reading through this thread and others has really helped me so much.

  34. #79
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    Gentlemen,

    Reproduction packets and cartridges ready for a shooting demonstration.

    G and L A-R-West

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    Default Chassepot cartridges

    Download of picture failed, so substituted this one instead.

    Cavaly carbine, some accessories, reproduction cartridges and packet.

    One cartridge is a blank.

    G and L A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chassepot carbine collage.jpg  

  36. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by G. A-R-West View Post
    Download of picture failed, so substituted this one instead.

    Cavaly carbine, some accessories, reproduction cartridges and packet.

    One cartridge is a blank.

    G and L A-R-West
    Extremely impressive. You need to publish a magazine or book so we can all learn your hard tested secrets!!! ;-) Those look like they came straight from an Edouard Detaille work!

  37. #82
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    Default Shooting Dreyse M.69 Pioneer short rifle with Pioneer bayonet fixed

    If any board members are interested, there is short footage on Youtube, shooting a Dreyse M.69 Pioneer short rifle with its saw-back pioneer bayonet fixed. Cartridge used is a facsimile Patrone M.55.

    The M.69 was the last military model to be adopted before issue with the Mauser M.71 system.

    A couple of accessories are also featured, such as the brass muzzle and sight protector and its correct leather sling with steel buckle for use with pioneer rifles.

    Access can be had by keying in: Guy and Leonard A-R-West, Shooting Dreyse M.69.


    G and L A-R-West
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dreyse 69 with bayonet.jpg  

  38. #83
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    Astonishingly well preserved! Thank you for sharing these rarities with us.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

  39. #84
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    Thank you Nick,

    Always a pleasure to share information with board members.

    Locating a Dreyse M.69 Pioneer short rifle with its bayonet is extremely rare, we were very lucky!

    The Pioneer saw-back bayonet is very heavy, making a cumbersome combination.

    Guy and Leonard A-R-West

  40. #85

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    Thanks again! Beautiful rifles!!!

  41. #86
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    Could anyone tell me the OAL and length of the brass sleeve for the complete needle for the M60 füsiliergewehr?
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
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    Link below may be of intrest.
    Regards
    David

    http://www.naturabuy.fr/Aiguille-Dre...m-1180862.html

  43. #88
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    He is the guy that makes them for me and he made one but I have a feeling the length of the needle protruding from the brass sheath is too long. The original needle in my rifle was cut off at the sleeve so I have no way to check. With the bolt fully open and back the new needle still pokes out a fair bit from the bolt-face.
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
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  44. #89
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    I have a book by John Walter it shows the Bolt for the M1841, 1860 & 1862 as being the same length 23cm.
    Please see pictures attached showing needle length & method of checking needel length by mark on side of receiver.

    There is 2 pages about the M1860 "in English" I can scan them if you want them.

    David

    Click image for larger version. 

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  45. #90
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    David

    Thank you very much for the picture. It is exactly what I needed!

    Fabien
    My own virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back!
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