Gunboards Forums banner

Remington mod. 700 controversy?

9K views 47 replies 22 participants last post by  cousinkix1953 
#1 · (Edited)
CNBC aired this expose-type documentary yesterday about a number of lawsuits involving Remington Arms and the mod. 700 trigger mechanism. The show didn't strike me as your typical antigun, media hit-piece. It seems like there may be a problem.

There are company memos going all the way back to the development stage that mention a "theoretical" unsafe condition. The original designer actually proposed a solution but it wasn't implemented for decades. Police and military snipers have complained of problems. And most of all, it may have contributed to two dozen civilian deaths (along with lack of muzzle discipline and failure to adhere to the rules of safe gun handling).

At the heart of the decades-long controversy over the Remington 700 series is a piece of metal that is roughly the length of a paper clip.

It is called a “trigger connector,” and it is an integral part of the firing mechanism patented by Remington engineer Merle “Mike” Walker in 1950. The so-called “Walker trigger” was a breakthrough in firearm design, allowing the smooth, crisp action favored by expert shooters at an affordable price.

The connector is mounted on a spring inside the firing mechanism, sitting between the trigger and the sear—the metal bar that holds back the firing pin. According to Walker’s patent, the connector not only smoothes the action of the trigger, but also eliminates “trigger slap,” where the trigger bounces back slightly after the gun is fired.

To this day, Walker calls his invention “a perfect trigger.” But multiple lawsuits against Remington allege the design is flawed. They claim small amounts of rust, debris, or even a small jolt can push the connector out of alignment, separating the trigger itself from the rest of the firing mechanism. Then, the complaints allege, the gun can go off when other parts are operated, such as the safety or the bolt.
Full article describing the mod. 700 trigger design and accusations of safety issues:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39743024?__source=usatoday&par=usatoday

What do the snipers and sniper aficionados think? If you watch the video at the above link, you can see law enforcement snipers demonstrating how the rifle can be made to fire without touching the trigger. I think everyone can agree that isn't a good thing.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
In my book, this is a non-issue. This is an old, typical anti-gun story, dug up and reprinted on the front pages two weeks before elections.

None of these rifles would have killed anyone had a round not been chambered in them and the users not relying solely on a mechanical safety to prevent the rifle from firing. A round should only be chambered if you intend to destroy something. If you are walking around with any weapon's chamber loaded 'just because', be prepared for an inadvertent discharge. 'Nuff said.

Keith
 
#3 ·
In my book, this is a non-issue. This is an old, typical anti-gun story, dug up and reprinted on the front pages two weeks before elections.

None of these rifles would have killed anyone had a round not been chambered in them and the users not relying solely on a mechanical safety to prevent the rifle from firing. A round should only be chambered if you intend to destroy something. If you are walking around with any weapon's chamber loaded 'just because', be prepared for an inadvertent discharge. 'Nuff said.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a firearm to not fire when you take the safety off, or touch the bolt handle. This is the first I've heard of any potential safety issue with the 700s. I don't own one, that's why I ask.

The USMC sniper school has confirmed they've had multiple incidents where their militarized 700s discharged unexpectedly on the firing line.

If this is what's happening, to me it's worth discussing.
 
#4 ·
I reread my post. I didn't mean to come off sounding hostile towards you. The issue of inadvertent firing with these rifles is a relevant one to discuss, and setting the triggers too light seem to be the major culprit. There was a rather lengthy discussion about the timing and the politics of this story in relation to the upcoming elections on another site and my passion carried over to this one.

I'd be interested to hear what others who have an extensive background with this rifle design have to say about this issue. I do not, other than a general 'turn the key and drive' type of knowledge.

Keith
 
#6 ·
Remington triggers going all the way back to the 721-722, and maybe before, can be screwed around with as far as adjustment to the point that these discharges will happen. The thing to do is read thge instructions and know what your doing before you start messing with them. Usually its the overtravel screw .
 
#7 · (Edited)
Most shooters are lucky if they can print 3moa at 100meters (95%) with a 700. Why in the world would they play with the trigger pull. Better yet , what kind of reasoning prompted Remington to put an adjustable unit in their main line of rifles. It would have been much safer and smarter to use a non adjustable unit and then to sell a adjustable drop in as an aftermarket unit
to limit liability.. It was probably a trial lawyer suggestion.I agree with srinde , the design probably goes back a number of decades prior to thee trial lawyer era. They just never recognized that the world of liability had changed. Just poor management.
 
#10 ·
This problem has nothing to do with trigger adjustment. It is a design problem. My Rem Mod 700 in a .270 discharged a few times when safety was disingaged. I was able to recreate this malfunction alot over the years. Several pants shitting situations happened with that rifle and I am not happy about it.
 
#14 ·
I see that they (Rem) in the past have put the blame on faulty "friction plates" inside the trigger mechanism. I still am willing to bet that a large number of accidental discharges are due to people messing with the adjustment on them. I have learned about them myself. I also have to agree with the above comment on organizational armorers.
 
#15 ·
I would have to jump on board with the "inexperienced adjuster" thought process too. The 700 triggers, both walker and x mark pro's are quite adjustable, problem is that if you don't know what you are doing you can screw up your sear engagement and cause them to discharge upon closing the bolt. Anyone who has spent much time around guns would realize this is possible.
Secondly, I am a former law-enforcement and military sniper. I 100% agree with mjmd's comment above. The military frequently (if not always) has some good hands servicing their weapons. Law-enforcement very rarely does, and to throw a bit more fuel on the fire, most law-enforcement officers (that I have had the pleasure of knowing) don't know their butt from a hole in the ground any more with firearms.
I have seen some terrible cleaning procedures and some terrible modifications and maintenance performed on LE weapons over the years. The last police sniper shooting in the video on that link could very well have come about from a cruddy trigger job and improper cleaning technique. I know for a fact that many LE agencies will do their trigger work in house or have a local "gunsmith" do the work for them...and if you have been around the block a little you know how that can end up.
 
#16 ·
I placed this link in a previous post - but seems to have been lost

It was on the NBC national news as well

edit: http://www.nbc.com/news-sports/msnbc...-deadly-flaws/

I owned, operated and had NO problems with several mod 700 remingtons. Seems like a crock of shirt to me, looking for the needle in the haystack.

So be it with the chief - uh - anti-gun person in charge.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I have seen "adjustment problems" as a similiar cause for everything from old-style muzzle-loader rifles and pistols (with adjustable sear faces) to modern adjustable triggers in ALL weapons. People love to dick with things, then they wanna cry foul. Sks's...I've had people bring them in firing F/A because they "slicked-up the sear" a bit. SAME theory. Same result. The cause.....idiots with guns!

I do thimk the military Snipers are actually having issues from the weapons being worn. They are fired more. Military armorers, especially those assigned to bravo 4's, are a little bit above average, if I may be allowed to say so. After all, there is a bit of pride involved, in that case....
 
#19 · (Edited)
In the final analysis, firearms companies are like ladder companies. They get sued ten times a day. We have a major problem with the number of lawyers chasing ambulances these days and the Democrats just keep making it easier every year in Washington for them to bring an action.. The solution is simple, manufacture overseas beyond the reach of their litigation. There is no personal responsibility here anymore for anything. I dicked with my trigger and blew my leg off but it was not my fault. I am unsucessfull in life but that is someone elses fault. Time for remington to leave the U.S. Let zastava build everything or better yet the Chinese. They would appreciate the work .
 
#20 ·
i dont know if this is related but saw 2 different hunting shows recently where Remington rifles failed to fire.Both places were cold ,one was in Alaska the other in Mongolia or Russia but in both instances the rifles failed to fire.I dont know if any one else has seen either program.The shows did not get into the cause of failure and backup rifles were used in both cases.If I see them again I will make a note of which programs they are.
 
#24 ·
I personally think that the only thing Remington might be guilty of is sending rifles out of the factory with "lawyer weight" triggers, which gives people a temptation to screw with them.
 
#28 ·
The problem with companies policing themselves is that greed in upper management outweighs common sense and safety concerns every time. If you have ever worked in American industry you already know this. The design may or may not be sound...but how many corners have been cut in the last decade or two to keep the rifle "affordable". How many people assembling these don't care...etc.
Remington is stupid to continue manufacturng something with this many issues; especially dating back to 1948.
Thanks, Smak
 
#30 ·
I have had customers bring rifles in that were doing exactly that, FTF, then boom when they touch the bolt. What usually has happened is that the triger bar (forgive a possible nomenclature goof here, I don't know Rem's names for ALL of those little parts) has almost released the sear, but is still touching it by a few thousandths. The jarring (even tho it is slight) of turning the bolt or even touching the handle, causes the sear to be released by the bar. It's an adjustment issue, 99% of the time. We often adjusted them before the customer even left with the new rifle, just because of this issue. Often times, an ounce of prevention cures a ton of oh shit! Know what I mean?

As a former Military EM, Off, and LEO, who is a graduate of the Army's Armorer Course, I realize the issues with those having "give-a-shit" attitudes, and you see that in all areas, just less in the military. Often LE agency amorors are not trained anywhere but self-training thru experience. Nothing wrong with that, if you have a good base and are willing to read some instruction manuals. Today's (and the past 3-4 decades of) training budgets are centered around legalty issues and defeating possibilities for law suits. Armorers are usually the guys who "know a bit" and can get the job done, as far as basic needs.

Our "run them down ad sue them" society is not without it's drawbacks, fellas.
 
#37 ·
Same here. I returned to my vehicle after a day hunting and went to unload my Remington 700 BDL and when I pushed the safety it fired. My first thought was "it shouldn't do that". Gave me quite a start. That was in 1986 and hasn't happened since. But it does happen as many can attest. Still a damn good rifle except it has a defect that must be watched. No way around it as the safety must be disengaged to open the bolt to unload. I still use it but am well aware that it can and probably will discharge when the safety is disengaged. And yes, I had it new from the factory since the early 1970s and never adjusted the trigger.
 
#32 ·
Most likely CNBC is on a witch hunt for gun companies. That's what the liberal media does. Remington just got in the crosshairs because of aledged problems.

Based on all of the facts to date, it looks like Remington has had a lot of problems with the 700 and failed to adress them because of corporate greed. Now, naturally they aren't going to fess up to anything.

The real truth is probably somewhere between the CNBC and Remington stories.

All I know is that in the past 15 years I have had 6 problems with Remington products. In each case their customer service responded OK and supplied replacement products. The very last time I refused a replacement and demanded my money back, which I got, but only after a lot of hassle.

I don't need hassle. I don't need to have to do things over. I resolved about 5 years ago that I would never again use a product labeled Remington, even if I got it for free. I worked for a company that knowingly shipped crap, but then bent over backwards to replace it to those that caught them in the act. I believe that was Remington's philosopy as well.

I don't know what the truth is about the 700, but you would never have found me shooting one even before the CNBC story. But now, I'll go one step further - nobody alowed to come on my property with one either!
 
#33 ·
I have had two 700bdl ,s that fired when the bolt was closed,one was a 243 itonly did it once while I had it. The other was a 3006 it was very dangerous . they were both stolen befor Icould have them fixed. Remington at one time had directions on how to adjust the trigger. they nolonger incloud this.
 
#34 ·
Not that I am jumping on the Anti -Remington bandwagon as I own zero 700's ,BUT ,a gunsmith friend of mine replaces about 20 Remington 700 extractors a year in his shop( 40 being the highest as he actually keeps score) I have fired probably 100's of thousands of rounds downrange in the Marine Corps and as a civilian with M-14's ,M-16's,Various automatic weapons, Mausers,Mosins and SAKOS and have never had an extractor fail or break.Imagine that
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top