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LLama Serial Number Database - Please Add Yours!

235K views 280 replies 153 participants last post by  cemorse 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Not much is known about the Llama serial number sequencing, so we are attempting to do a database spreadsheet. For all practical purposes, we are looking at the handguns produced under the "Llama" name, and not the earlier Gabilondo y Cia products. I strongly suspect that Gabilondo y Cia started a continuous one-ascending number system from the point where they adopted the Llama name (the early 1930s?). To start, these are some numbers I have. Please list model name/number, caliber, year code (if available), and serial number.

"Extra" 9mm Largo - 1940 - 45680
"Extra" 9mm Largo - 1940 - 46306
"Extra" 9mm Largo - 1940 - 46883
Model II - 380 ACP - 1943 - 70989
Model I - 32 ACP - 1943 - 72994 (German GECO marked)
Model II - 380 ACP - 1944 - 78290
Model I - 32 ACP - 1944 - 84482
"Extra" 9mm Largo - 1944 - 89123
Model IIIA - 380 ACP - (don't have year handy) - 739813
 
#55 ·
Welcome to the forum!
You will find this group to be as nice and helpful as any out there.
They will help you with any question you may have.
It sounds like you "found" a beautiful pistol.
Some day soon you need to post some pics, cosmoline and all if you wish to keep it as it is.
You may also wish to clean it up and shoot it because it is a beautiful pistol and shoots very well.
Keep us posted about what you decide to do with it and don't be a stranger!
 
#56 ·
Hello! I had to register, this place has so much information. :)
Just this weekend I acquired two Spanish pistols, an Astra and a Llama.

The Llama is an XV Especial, 1956, serial number 1X0707. We think that second digit could be a 9, but it is poorly stamped so it could be a 3 or 8 too.
Has light rust all over, is missing the extractor, very worn wood grips with the yellow metal Llama name stamp.
This gun is an adorable little thing, and looks like my other two pistols had a baby. Ruger MarkIII .22 crossed with a Kimber 1911 .45.

I've been doing a lot of reading already, and I am hopeful to find a compatible extractor for the Llama, although it sounds like it may function without it.
Sounds like the recoil spring is a weak area and hard to get, but then I saw that a few springs were available last year or so, so I am hopeful of finding a spare spring also.

I greatly appreciate the resource of such a large gun collectors forum! I'll have plenty of reading to do, there is a lot to learn here.
 
#61 ·
Hello,
I am a new member after just finding this forum.
I have a LLAMA Especial 32 Caliber that I purchased in December 1964.
I believe it to be some version of a IIIA. (but I am not sure)
On the right side it says: "LLAMA" ESPECIAL
with serial number 314008 just over the trigger
On the left side it says: GABILONDO Y CIA ELGOIBAR (ESPENA) {Some of these letters may be incorrect; they aren't well struck}
plus CAL - 7.65 m/m (32)
with 2 markings and J1 just over the trigger.
It has 3 rib vents and an 8 round clip that fits into the handle.
The handle has brown bakerlite ? grips with a small round metal insert that says LLAMA on each side.
It looks exactly like a miniature M1911 Colt .45
Please add S/N 314008 to your database.
Any information on my LLAMA model would be appreciated
Thanks
 
#75 · (Edited)
I have a Llama Extra I inherited from my dad in the late l980s. Don't know how long he had it.

Markings on left side are: (top line):Gabiiondo Y Cia elgoibar(ESPANA). (bottom line): CAL 9 m/m 38 "LLAMA"

Markings on right side are: (slide): "LLAMA" EXTRA (receiver): SN# 35975 (below and slightly left): "gc" in an oval which apparently is the trademark of Gabiiondo and Cia.

I don't know if my dad ever fired it. It is in excellent condition and since 1992 I have fired about 5,000 rounds of .38 Super standard and +P loads with no pressure problems whatsoever. When I first started shooting it, it fired about four inches high and four inches to the left at 25 feet. I corrected the left strike by adjusting the rear sight. It now shoots about four inches low but dead center. Several weeks ago after shooting about 60 rounds loaded with 3.1 grains of Bullseye powder and a 153 grain Lee LRN cast bullet, I was able to score 93 out of a possible 100 with three bullseyes by compensating for the drop in my sight picture. Shortly after that, I changed to a Fiocchi commercial load with a 129 jacketed round nose bullet and fired 10 shots into a 2-inch circle...the best grouping I have ever had. Ordinarily the extreme spread of a group has been about 8-inches.

When I originally started reloading for this pistol, I selected the Lee 153 grain bullet because my research said the .38 Super was developed to have the same impact as a .45 without the heavy recoil. Using that information, I determined, rightly or wrongly, that the heavy bullet would be appropriate to meet that objective. But I always had accuracy problems. This summer I spent hours working up loads to finally get to the load mentioned above. After my experiece with the Fiocchi, I started working on loads with a 125 grain Lee LRN cast bullet and I'm getting pretty good accuracy with Winchester 231 powder at 4.7 grains. Interestingly, Fiocchi does not specify what powder it is using but I took one of their bullets apart and weighed the powder. It came in at 4.7 grains but the texture, while similar, did not match the texture of the W231. Plus, their bullet is 4 grains heavier than the Lee bullet.

Recently I replaced the original barrel with a stock 6-inch roto barrel from Sarco. The barrel fit perfectly and the stock barrel bushing from Sarco was very snug as it should be. The original barrel bushing is quite loose. On first firing of the new barrel, I had to hit the slide with the palm of my hand to get it to close but after firing about 30 rounds, it started functioning as well as it had with the original barrel. This was expected and is normal in breaking in new parts. However the new barrel still fires about four inches low. I have now replaced the original slide stop pin with a stock .45 slide stop, again from Sarco, which also fit perfectly and much more snuggly than the original slide stop. It has also been recommended that I replace the rear sight with a taller one or with an adjustable sight to obtain a zero adjustment and I am looking into that. Midway has a tall profile sight that should fit the dovetail for $14 and also has a Springfield Armory adjustable rear sight with a Novak cut dovetail tenon for $44. I would rather have the adjustable sight but I've been told I will have to file the dovetail groove significantly to get the Novak tenon to fit and I'm hesitant to do that. I'm gonna continue looking to see if I can find an adjustable rear sight that will fit the standard miltary dovetail.

There has been some mention here and other websites that .38 Super should not be fired in this pistol citing that it was designed for the much lower pressures of the .38 Auto. However, this thinking ignores the fact that the specifications of the 9mm Largo, which the Llama was also deslgned fo,r very closely match the specs of the .38 Super on the lower end. In working up loads for the 153 grain bullet I had some muzzle velocities that exceeded 2000 fps with no pressure problems. However, when I exceeded 1500 fps, I quickly stopped firing those loads because I was uncomfortable with both the sound of the shot and the recoil. I have attempted to keep muzzle veolcities at about 1100 fps which is where I am getting my best accuracy and where pressures are more in keeping with the specifications of the .38 Super standard loads. I do not load +P loads and have not chronographed any of the commercial +P loads that I have fired but I have encountered no pressure problems with commercial +P and the gun functions well when I use them.

There has also been information related on various websites that standard replacement parts for the military Colt .45 may or may not fit the Llama Extra, My experience so far is that every part I have purchased from Sarco has fit perfectly. This would indicate that replacent parts that fit any military M1911A1, regardless of supplier, should fit the Llama Extra,

There has also been speculation that the Llama Extra could be converted to .45 by changing out the barrel, bushing, magazine and slide. The new barrel that I installed has the same outside diameter as the Sarco .45 barrel and with the Sarco bushing it fits the Llama slide perfectly. This being the case, it should be possible to replace the Sarco .38 Super barrel with the Sarco .45 barrel and using the Saeco bushing, completely convert the weapon to .45...assuming that a .45 maqazine will work in the Llama...without the major expense of replacing the slide. I have tested a .45 Commander magazine in the Llama and it seemed to fit properly but the commander slide would not work so I was unable to cycle the weapon to check feed. At the time, I did not think to check the function with my slide in place. I also cannot speculate on how extraction and ejection will function without testing.

Once I complete my accurizing project, I may move forward with a .45 conversion. Since it appears that it would not be necessary to replace the slide, it appears the conversion could be done fairly inexpensively.

I don't know the age of this pistol but I've been told that if it has no date proof it is pre-1929. In any case, it has become my favorite pistol of half a dozen that I own and the one I shoot most. It's a great gun in beautiful condition and far better than the U.S. Government .45s I trained with when I was in the army.

This information is provided for the benefit of those who have questions about the Llama Extra and are based solely on my personal experience with this specific pistol. No recommendations are made or implied as to whether these experiences and procedures will work with any other Llama Extra. Any modification or changes made by any individual to their own weaon based on this information should be done at their own risk and with extreme caution.

I realize that this is the serial number thread and if this is too much information here, I would ask the moderator to move it to a better location.

Thanks

Len
 
#76 ·
Hi Len,

Welcome to the board and thanks for a nice write up. It sounds like you know what you're doing with the 9mm Largo/.38 Auto/.38 Super setup. Llama did come out with a 9mm largo/.38 Super barrel/gun a little later. If you have the proper recoil springs and you now have a correct barrel I see no problems with your shooting setup.

As for converting it to a .45 ACP, it has been done with the M1911 models with the proper extractor and ejector. In the M1911 platform, there are dedicated extractors for the 9mm rounds and you can swap out the ejectors and get the longer and shorter 9mm installed. In the Llama Extra, the ejector is not replacable and you cannot find the extractors... anywhere. If you know a good gunsmith or someone who can work with hard steel, you should have a couple of extractors made because if yours breaks or chips, you will have a nice paperweight. If you know someone, he may be able to make a 9mm extractor as well. IMO, you'd be better off getting a .45ACP upper and see if the ejector fares well enough to make it work for you. A Llama .45ACP upper may work the best but if you have the proper equipment you should be able to modify any .45ACP slide to fit on your frame. In my experience, the frame rails and the slide rails do not line up properly when going from a Llama .45ACP to a mil-spec .45ACP slide but with some fine tuning you can get it to work. The ejector is the only issue and if you break it, the gun is useless as the ejector is built into the frame, not a separate part added on.

You have a great handle on reloading for it. If you stay at 1100fps, you are in 9mm Luger range and should be fine. The only commercial .38 Super I see for sale is +p rated and that was where issues with frame battering and a different sized chamber could have come into play but you seemed to have overcome that.

Good luck and keep us posted!
Pictures are always welcome.
It sounds like you have a beautiful gun.
 
#77 ·
Thanks for the comments

Larry -- I truly appreciate your comments and insight. The last thing I want to do is convert my Llama to a paper weight. You provided me with some important information that I had not found in my research...that being the fact that the ejector is not replaceable and that a standard 1911 extractor will not fit the Llama.

When I ordered the new barrel, I did not order a new bushing because I thought the Llama bushing might fit. It did not. So I then ordered the Sarco bushing but I had to add some stuff to the order to hit the $19.00 minimum and I threw in a firing pin and extractor, neither of which I have tried. Based on what you say, it looks like I'll find that the extractor doesn't fit. I wonder about the firing pin as well.

After getting your comments, I took a close look at the ejector and now understand what you're talking about. The ejector is machined into the frame so if it breaks, you're done. Maybe. If you have a good machinist capable of making an extractor, I believe that person would also be capable of grinding off the original ejector and machining a replacement which would pin onto the frame like the ejector on a government model 1911. That, of course, would be an expensive fix but I think it could be done. Unfortunately, I expect the cost of that repair would far exceed the real value of the gun and would simultaneously destroy the historical value. Further, it would be far cheaper to buy a new pistol than to undertake those kinds of repairs and modifications. At this point the ejector appears to be in great shape with just a little normal wear on the lower right corner. And, it's kicking cases out 10-15 feet behind me when I fire it. The extractor also shows nominal wear on the face but the edge is crisp and sharp so assuming reasonable care and nomal loads it should be OK as well.

At age 75, this Llama Extra should far outlast me, though I may try to pick up a Rock Island Armory in .38 Super as something else to tinker with and to save wear and tear on the Llama. One I get it shooting well enough that a stranger can take it to the range and get somewhere close to the bull on the first shot, I think I'll be done tinkering with this gun.

Thanks very much for your comments. They were really helpful.

Len
 
#78 · (Edited)
Llama .45 cal

I'm told it's a Llama IX-B from 1982.

I have a .45 caliber Llama that looks like the photo on the LlamaPage.html on www.carbinesforcollectors.com



It has SN B39037, imported by Stoeger Ind. It also has 6.2 over the trigger on the left side, but the decimal is between the top of the numbers so it's probably not a decimal. It has a Z stamped on the right side of the trigger guard, and what a appears to be a little bomb stamped in several places. The grip safety is polished and plated [either nickel or chrome]. I first saw this pistol about 1980; it belonged to the wife of a man that became a good friend and he gave it to me several years ago after his wife died. Can you tell me anything about it?

Bob
 
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