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  1. #1
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    Default Soviet Prisoners of War in Norway

    http://falstadsenteret.no/6_formidli...ngelsk_web.pdf

    100.000 Soviet, Poles, Serbs prisoner of war was sent to Norway to build rail, roads, airports and the "Fortress Norway" for the Germans, including 9000 civilians, 1400 women and 400 children, and placed in 500 prisoner of war camps while in Norway. 13700 of these Slavic prisoner of war died from starvation, executions etc, while in Norway. Only 2700 of these deads are known by name. Any Norwegians who helped to those Soviet prisoner with food would receive harsh prison sentences. Few of those prisoners would escape to Sweden. Uniformed Norwegian Nazi soldiers also guarded and killed those Soviet prisoner of war in Norway.

    After WW2, The Swedish Red Cross took over the care of the surviving Soviet prisoners of war in Norway, who were all, repatriated to Russia.

  2. #2
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    I bet most of those who were repatriated we sent off to the Gulag. Stalin did that with most returning POWs as he had ordered them to "never surrender" while he feared others would spread "subversive ideas" they picked up in Europe. What a meglomaniac he was!!!
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.
    [Points to sword] But this....this you can trust!"

    Conan the Barbarian, 1982

  3. #3
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    Post WW2, investigations showed that half of those Soviet prisoner of war, repatriated from Norway, was sent home right away, while the other half went through a furhter "investigation", since many of them, including many civilian from the Soviet union, had voluntarily gone into German service in Norway and elsewhere.

    The Soviet military endured the worst, and took most of the brunt of the casualties of WW2, either fighting or in the hands of their German captors. A total of over 8 millions Soviet sodiers died while fighting the Nazis. 40 % of the Soviet equipment to fight the Nazi Germany came from the USA, like 10.000 rail road cars, 1000 locomotives, 500.000 trucks and cars, 21000 ariplanes, 15 million pair of boots, uniforms, 15000 tanks and amoured cars, two complete steel milll , radars, food etc etc.

    Josef Stalin was an American proxy during WW2.

  4. #4
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    Come on.

  5. #5
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    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...6315/lend.html

    Please also google "Lend Lease" to Russia

    I did not mean to offend anybody by suggesting that Josel Stalin was an American proxy during WW2. The total dependency Stalin had on US military equipment, and the willingness of the US to supply Stalin with whatever he needed to fight and defeat the Germans during WW2, made me suggest that Stalin was a proxo of the US.

    I know that the US and Russia were strong allies during WW2.

    Politics often makes "strange bedfellows".
    Last edited by snowhunter; 12-28-2010 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowhunter View Post
    40 % of the Soviet equipment to fight the Nazi Germany came from the USA, like 10.000 rail road cars, 1000 locomotives, 500.000 trucks and cars, 21000 ariplanes, 15 million pair of boots, uniforms, 15000 tanks and amoured cars, two complete steel milll , radars, food etc etc.

    Josef Stalin was an American proxy during WW2.
    While the Soviet Union was greatful for Lend Lease assistance from its allies, your numbers are not only off, but not taken in context. In fact, Lend Lease accounted for about 5%-7% of total Soviet production during WW II.

    If taken for the years 1941 to the middle of 1942 the percentage of total Soviet production supplied by Lend Lease was probably around 20%. (For example, 15% of the USSR's tanks were Lend Lease in 1941/1942. That percentage dropped precipitously once Soviet tank production got under way.)

    The biggest (and most important) contribution Lend Lease made was in the supply of vehicles. About 151,000 light trucks, 200,000 heavy trucks, and 51,000 jeeps for a total of 400,000 were sent to the Soviet Union via Lend Lease, NOT 500,000.

    Your figure of 10,000 railroad cars and 1,000 locomotives is in the ball park, but this should be taken into account against the 660,000 railroad cars and 28,000 locomotives supplied by Soviet industry.

    Soviet industry produced about 160,000 military aircraft during the GPW
    including around 63,000 fighters, 38,000 attack aircraft, and 21,000 bombers.
    The 8,000 aircraft (NOT 21,000) made in the U.S. for delivery to Russia is an insignificant number in itself. But, how many of those planes were actually delivered???

    The 6,400 pieces of Lend Lease artillery is a drop in the bucket compared to
    the 550,000 artillery pieces produced by Soviet industry during the GPW.

    Soviet industry also produced about 60,000 T34 and T34-85 medium tanks during the GPW. In addition, it also produced about 13,000 heavy tanks.

    According to most figures, a total of 9,777 tanks of all types were sent to
    the USSR under Lend Lease, NOT 15,000:
    Valentine - 3487
    Churchill - 258
    M3A3 Lee/Grant - 1200
    Matilda - 832
    M4A2 75mm Sherman - 1750
    M4A2 76mm Sherman - 1850

    The first four tanks on the list accounted for 5,777 of the total and were pieces of CRAP! Either they couldn't function under combat conditions in the climate and terrain of the Eastern Front, or they had guns that couldn't punch a hole in a sheet rock wall let alone a German tank.

    Lend Lease was very helpful in the beginning of the war and assisted the Soviet Union to regain its equillibrium after the initial Nazi Blitzkrieg. However, Joseph Stalin was nobody's proxy and once they moved their factories to the East by the middle of 1942 Soviet industry manufactured what they needed.

    Mike
    Last edited by 3A PKKA; 12-29-2010 at 07:06 AM.

  7. #7
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    Regardless, I will forever be facinated by the huge industrial output of the USA, which not only fought and won WW2 on two, distant major fronts, as well as being able to supply all it's allies, including USSR, with enormous quantities of military and industrial supplies, and doing so, without the use of slave labor, working to dead, as it was documented in Norway and many other places, controlled by the Nazi's.

    From the history I now know, that the war time German or the Japanese leadership, never comprehended the American's will to use it's industrial and military powers to defeat them, before it was to late for them to pull out.

  8. #8
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    Lend Lease and we are still waiting for the first payment LOL
    Laugh hard and often.

    Gary

  9. #9
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    Snowhunter wrote:
    Regardless, I will forever be facinated by the huge industrial output of the USA…

    My comment:
    Without a doubt U.S industrial output was impressive during WW II, but it shouldn’t be surprising. There had never been a war fought on American soil. By 1941 U.S. factories and plants had 100 years to develop without being destroyed and rebuilt. Even the battles of the American Civil War never touched the industrial centers of the northern states.

    What is truly fascinating was the Soviet ability to quickly move its factories East after the initial blitzkrieg, and by 1942 begin mass production of war materials.



    Snowhunter wrote:
    …(the U.S.) not only fought and won WW2 on two, distant major fronts…

    My comment:
    While I agree that the U.S. can take the credit for the defeat of Japan, it was the Soviet Union that was most instrumental in the defeat of Nazi Germany. 80% of the forces of the Nazi war machine were concentrated on the Eastern Front doing battle with the Red Army.

    The Soviet Union fought for three years alone in Europe before the Normandy invasion opened up the second front in June of 1944. By that time the Red Army had driven the German forces out of the Soviet Union and was steamrolling toward Berlin. In my opinion, the second front was opened not so much to help the Red Army, but to block it from reaching France after it captured Berlin!

    Mike
     

  10. #10
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    so you are saying that russia would have defeated the germans on the the same time table with out lend lease? i don,t think so. with out lend lease(i know just junk) russia would likely be speaking german now. russia was a german allie before hitler attacked russia and did take part in the spoils of war with the germans, i would have left them spinning in the wind, just ask a pole what he thinks of the so called GPW waged by russia. that the russians suffered so many deaths was helped by stalin who killed most of his good fighting general in his crazy purges in the 30,s. if russia had a sane leader instead of a nut case like stalin there would have been less death amoung the russian people. hell alot of russian,s welcomed the germans as liberators. eastbank.

  11. #11
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    Eventually, Stalin, like most dictators, was eventually consumed by his own dirty ways, when his security chief, Beria poisoned him, before he to as well, was consumed by the Bolshevik Revolution, which also consumed itself after 71 years rule in the Soviet Union.

    Without doubt, the massive transfer of weapons and related technology to the the USSR, both from England and the USA, was crucial for the survival of the USSR in the early years of WW2.

    I am still sadden to see that a Scandinavian country, like Norway, was unwillingly, subjected to the harsh realities of slave labor during WW2 by the Germans, in form of Russian prisoners of war, in which 13700 of them died a grousome dead, while in Norway, and thus far exeded combined Norwegian war deads during WW2. I like to point out that the Norwegain population, was under orders from the Germans, not to help these Russian slave laboreres in Norway with food etc. One Norwegain woman was sentenced three months in jail for handing a bread to a Russian prisoner of war.

  12. #12
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    Any idea how many Russians died in RUSSIAN slave labor camps during and after the war ?

  13. #13
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    As Russian media and access to information becomes more open in Russia, I have read that during WW2, many Russian Slave laborers (Gulags) from Russia, were put in uniforms, and sent ahead of Russian tanks when attacking the Germans, and thus clearing the fields for landmines, ahead of the tanks. The estimated Russian dead from such attacks, using slave labor for clearing landmines and bait for German bullets, its believed to be over one million Russian deads.

    1.3 million German prisoner of war in Russia are still unaccounted for, according to the German Red Cross.

    I read somewhere that Stalin was responsible for over 30 million Russian deads ?

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    Judging by the above posts written by srinde, eastbank, and others, it is obvious that it is impossible to conduct a civil discussion about Lend Lease or anything that goes against the American version of WW II. From the topic we jumped to attacking Stalin, rambling about Soviet "slave labor" camps, killing Soviet generals, and Beria poisoning Stalin, etc., etc. None of this is relevant to the Lend Lease topic.

    I never said Lend Lease wasn't important or not appreciated. I also clearly stated that it was especially important at the beginning of the war to help the Soviet Union regain its equillibrium. The fact that Lend Lease was only a small percentage of the total Soviet war time production upsets Americans and we suddenly go from discussing Lend Lease to all sorts of off-topic attacks and accusations. This isn't surprising, because the accomplishments of the Soviet Union during the war have either been ignored or belittled in the U.S.

    I would suggest to anyone who wants to learn about what really occurred on the Eastern Front to get the DVD series of "The Unknown War." Produced by the U.K. and Soviet Union this twenty 45 minute show series was narrated by Burt Lancaster and aired on American television only twice - once in 1978 and once in the early 1980s. If anything, you will get to see documentary footage from Soviet archives that has never been seen in the U.S. except on this series. Go to the following link and check it out:

    http://unknown-war.com/

    Mike

  15. #15
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    1) I have no idea what this discussion has to do with Krags.

    2) I do not have any interest in studying WWII history with a Soviet-resurgent communist spin.

    3) I do not think it has anything to do with accepting the "US version" of the war. I do not think the Soviets were much better, possibly a little worse than the Nazis. And the Nazis were certainly bad enough.

  16. #16
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    I think its a good time to stop this discussion

  17. #17
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    Back to the original topic.

    The sinking of MS Rigel:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Rigel

    Vasilij Rambovski: The worlds unluckyest man? I found this story in the link below, and put it through google translate. Hope it's understandable.

    http://www.norsk-rettsmuseum.no/a/?id=68&vn=736

    When we found this picture, we had no other information than the name "Rambowski" which was written in pencil on the back. But thanks to thorough investigations and help and information from Per Jevne, Michael Stokke and Tore Strømøy, we here present the incredible and tragic story of Vasily A. Rambovskij.



    Vasily Andrejevich Rambovskij was born in Ukraine, probably in 1918. He grew up in the village Rybki, outside Odessa, as the second youngest in a Christian family of four.

    When Vasily was about 11 years, Ukraine went into a humanitarian crisis. Josef Stalin was interested in Ukraine because of the good agricultural opportunities in the country. He closed the borders, banning all imports of food, and demanded that all food products manufactured in Ukraine would be sent out of the country. This led to between 4 and 5 million Ukrainians starved to death in a short period of time.



    Vasily and his family survived, but when he at age 20 married and had a son, his son died after a short time. The following year he got a new son, but he died shortly after birth. Vasily was crushed by sorrow, when in 1939 he was drafted into military service.

    He served for the Red Army in 1941 when he was captured by the Germans. Large parts of the Red Army had been slaughtered in the face of the enemy, and those who survived underwent a brutal time in the face of war prisoners. Vasily and the other prisoners were forced out of a long and relentless march to Poland, without food and proper clothing. They were then crammed into cramped rail cars that carried them to Auschwitz.

    23 year old was Vasily witnessed the systematic slaughter and torture in the camp. Although he was prone to abuse, hunger and organized food poisoning, but survived for almost miraculously.



    After a time he was transported to Hamburg, and then to Bergen by ship. War Prisoners were placed outside on the deck and used as human shields against the British bombers. The English abandoned bombing attempts when they caught sight of the emaciated prisoners who sat out on deck without food or shelter from the elements.

    Along with 25 other Russians arrived Vasily Levanger and Moan prison camp in 1943. There, the prisoners worked mostly as horse pass for the Germans, and had it better than in many other camps. Some also got to work on private farms in the area. The biggest difference, "said Vasily, was that they got food.

    But the escape attempt was knocked down hard, that those who tried to escape were immediately shot, and Vasily saw several of their comrades killed in this way.

    One autumn day in 1944 trying Vasily and two other Russians to escape Moan. There are several versions of what happened next.



    Vasily says they ran across a field, the forest, while the bullets whistled past their heads. First one fell to the ground, shortly after, also the second hit. Vasily ran for their lives and managed to get into hiding among the trees. The Germans chased after and put sniffer dogs in the search, but Vasily hide their tracks well by running up a river and finally gives up the pursuers.

    Other sources believe that Vasily was collected and taken prisoner by the Germans, while the comrades were shot quite right. He was taken to the mission site (Gestapo headquarters) in Trondheim, where he was until the war was over. Then he went back to Levanger, but escaped to the woods for fear of being sent back to the Soviet Union.



    Whichever version is correct, it is certain that for Vasily was the start of two to three years on the run in the woods in a foreign country. He lived for periods of a bear, when he roamed around without knowing quite where he was. Eventually he was brought into the Bymarka in Trondheim. Vasily was then has been 27 years old.

    During the summer, he wandered around in the woods, in winter he hiding in a barn. After two cold winters in the hayloft, he was discovered, terrified, emaciated and dressed in rags. The lining was smeared with horse manure to keep the cold out. He had survived on grisefòr, turnips, and milk from cows.

    Month picture was taken that day in 1947, when he was picked up by police and sent to the hospital. According to him, he had spent three years alone in the forest, not knowing that the war was over. Not until he was handed a copy of a Russian newspaper he could get the good news.

    But 13 March he was sent to hospital for Reitgjerdet particularly dangerous mentally ill men, and here he was put in solitary confinement for 2 months. Vasily was marked by what he had been through, and could hardly a word of Norwegian. It was still very clear to the staff at Reitgjerdet that although he was shy, timid and scared, so he was not mentally ill. Nevertheless, he was held there.



    In October 1947, a delegation from the Soviet Union to bring him home. Vasily was initially happy, he was homesick and missed his family. But superior in Reitgjerdet, Henrik Lundh, advised him strongly not to go with them. Lundh knew that Stalin had ordered his troops to rather shoot himself than be captured, and that most soldiers who had survived the time in captivity was consistently shot or interned in labor camps in Siberia when they returned to their home country.

    Lundhs urgent warning made an impression on St. Basil, and he chose to stay on Reitgjerdet. After two whole years at the institution, he was discharged, and took on different farms in. Farmers tell of a hard-working, but nervous and traumatized man who kept mostly to themselves. After a short time he began to draw to the solitude of the woods again, and eventually he was seen as a savage by the villagers. He broke into the cabin to find food, and people began to demand that the government should intervene.



    At the end of the 1950s, it was decided that Vasily had caught. Despite the fact that he had never been violent or approaching people, considered of him as a threat. When police finally able to apprehend him, they were faced with a terrified man who feared for their lives. He believed that one had to send him to the USSR, and that he again would be put in prison camp. He was sent to Rotvoll asylum, and during the entire stay was very poor and afraid. Among other things, he could at times refusing to eat food he was served before anyone else had tasted it first - he had food poisoning in Auschwitz fresh in memory. He tried to escape four times, and was transferred to prison in 1961. On the basis that he had committed nearly 100 hytteinnbrudd over the years, he was tried in 1962.

    The court concluded that he was clearly traumatized by their experiences and "possessed of latent anxiety" from the war, but nevertheless considered it not as mitigating. He was sentenced to five years in security at Ila Security Institution, the former Grini camp.



    At the same time he meets Birgitte, and falls in love. After a one-year sentence he is released, and Vasily, and Birgitte are a daughter together. Vasili's happy for the first time in over 20 years. The small family buys a small farm and trying to build a new life together. But Vasily keep the past itself, and eventually weigh on him so much that he returned to Reitgjerdet. Eventually, he loses touch with the family.



    After four years of Reitgjerdet Vasily was released and declared healthy. 52 years old, he became a Norwegian citizen and bought a small house in Levanger in Nord-Trondelag. Here he lived in solitude, and though he eventually became an accomplished sculptor, he was seen as something of a village idiot. He tried to connect with his family in Ukraine, but not until 1992 that success. His brothers were killed during the war. His father died after an accident in 1946, and his mother died in the 1960s. The mother had been told in 1947 that her youngest son was alive in Norway, but since she had never heard anything. She died in the hope of again seeing him again.

    But Vasily little sister Anna lived, and she also had been looking for him. The joy and the expectations were huge, and Vasily would finally come home.



    Morning 21 August 1992, Vasily got a unwell and was admitted to the hospital of Levanger. The same evening he fell asleep and died, just 10 days before he would come back home to his beloved Ukraine and family that he had to leave 50 years earlier.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for reminding us, and bringing it back on topic ...lol. Quite interesting story by the way
    "Ole viisaasti höperö!" sanoi vääpeli Ryhmy
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowhunter View Post
    http://falstadsenteret.no/6_formidli...ngelsk_web.pdf

    100.000 Soviet, Poles, Serbs prisoner of war was sent to Norway to build rail, roads, airports and the "Fortress Norway" for the Germans, including 9000 civilians, 1400 women and 400 children, and placed in 500 prisoner of war camps while in Norway. 13700 of these Slavic prisoner of war died from starvation, executions etc, while in Norway. Only 2700 of these deads are known by name. Any Norwegians who helped to those Soviet prisoner with food would receive harsh prison sentences. Few of those prisoners would escape to Sweden. Uniformed Norwegian Nazi soldiers also guarded and killed those Soviet prisoner of war in Norway.

    After WW2, The Swedish Red Cross took over the care of the surviving Soviet prisoners of war in Norway, who were all, repatriated to Russia.
    There were 4 main POW camps in Norway
    Stalag 303 at Lillehammer
    Stalag 330 initially at Sagen by Alta, and later moved to Beisfjord by Narvik
    Stalag 322 by Elvenes close by Kirkenes
    Stalag 380 at Drevja and Oppdal
    Under these camps there were a number of sub-camps: 121 in northern Norway, 76 in central Norway and 87 in southern Norway.
    In addition to these there were several work camps where the inmates were utilized as manpower by Org Todt
    "Ole viisaasti höperö!" sanoi vääpeli Ryhmy
    Commissar Natalia Vengrovska Fan Club Life Member :-)
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  20. #20
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    Other ships, sailing along the Norwegian coast, carrying mostly Russian prisoners of war, were also mistakingly sunk by RAF and Fleet Air Arm. As many as further, 10.000 Russian prisoner of war died from british "friendly fire" bombing and torpedo attacks, when the british mistook tousands of Russian prisoner of war on the decks of the German transports, as German soldiers. These arial attacks, included reports of machine gunning of the survivors, while they were in the life boats. Most of these Russian prisoner of war, went down with the German transports.

  21. #21
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    In one of the worst disasters - when Rigel was sunk by RAF planes along the coast of northern Norway in Nov 1944- almost 2500 POW's and passengers lost their lives.
    Almost 2100 Soviet POW's, 8 Norwegian prisoners and 95 German deserters + crew, guards and other passengers died
    "Ole viisaasti höperö!" sanoi vääpeli Ryhmy
    Commissar Natalia Vengrovska Fan Club Life Member :-)
    Tired of the Police ? Try calling a Crackhead next time you need help
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    Looking for Norwegian Mauser K98F1 HÆR 43408 - the first military rifle I was issued

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