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Japanese Luger?

9K views 27 replies 17 participants last post by  03man 
#1 ·
I ran across some interesting information this afternoon while combing some of the auction sites. One listing has a beautiful Luger that is described as being built for the Japanese to test for a military side arm = much like the US did. It is described as a 1906 Japanese Test Luger in 30 cal with a 6" barrel, with kanji marking for TG&E on the side of the receiver. Price at this time is in the $4000 range and estimated to go between 15-20,000 for it!!!!
I have never seen anything about this item and so it really got my attention ===== learn something new every time I look around. I will not list the auction here, as it is ongoing at a prime auction house on the west coast.
About as rare as a 45 cal Luger built for the US. Just some thing more to dream about!
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the update on this piece!! It sure pays to post this stuff on the boards, for the help of those that are so much more knowledgeable. I'm sure he will be sorry that he doesn't ask questions before spending that amount of cash + premium (I think 15%!) WOW
 
#6 ·
Maybe the buyer will be lucky enough to find another buyer just like himself when he gets around to selling it. He may never know he spent $9,950 too much on the thing.....:eek:

At the least. he better hope his wife(if he's married) doesn't find out the real value of the thing!!
 
#7 ·
Does anyone worry that continued auctions like this will "create" provenance??? There are some auction houses I avoid like the plague at this point because they seem to be nothing more than fraud shops...
 
#8 · (Edited)
Indeed, it will create provenance to some level, but since most people know (at least should know) that auction houses are out to make a buck and more, so whatever described and sold at auctions does not necessary mean it's authentic. I read the "Billionaire's Vinegar" the other day (thanks Veloce), and the book is a real hoot about fraudulent "made-up" vintage and historic wines being sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars at Christies and the like ! Same thing here, so auction results are really not something to count on for provenence. A purchaser "has" to do his own research even when buying from a highly reputable auction house.
The real problem in this case is that the Derby/Brown book describes a known and photographed TGE test Luger as authentic (which it's not) and that kind of gives provenance (if viewed incorrectly) to this IJN test Luger that just sold on Greg Martin Auction, due to the similarities in the markings. But, actually, from my view point the sheer fact of the similar markings in itself is one of the proofs that both Lugers are nothing but fake make-up fantasy pieces. It's unfortunate that a book as greatly researched and influential as the Derby/Brown bible just had to "jump the gun" (all pun intended) on authenticating the fake TGE marked Luger before making more in depth research into it.
 
#11 ·
Greg Martin usually does a better job than Rock Island... Greg Martin usually doesn't include enough information on most actual Japanese firearms to make an informed bid, though...
 
#12 · (Edited)
It wouldn't surprise me to see this Luger come up for auction again in the near future; probably Rock Island.


IMO, provenance has to be clear irrefutable evidence as to the origin of this pistol. For example, factory or arsenal records that indicate this Luger (by serial #) was obtained for testing purposes in an agreement between the German Navy and IJN.

- tge
 
#14 ·
Really nice luger; with really strange markings. I have to go with the spurious conclusion, take a $1200 luger and turn it into a $12000 fake is pretty lucrative.
 
#20 ·
There are many rifles and pistols that were one-of-a-kind and records were destroyed during the bombing of the Nagoya arsenal in 45. Two examples are the experimental Type 99 sniper carbine carried on a midget sub to shoot seagulls off the parascope and the Type 4 (modified T-2) sniper carbine issued to "little people" paratroopers.

I know these are authentic because I was there when they were fabricated by Mssrs. Langley and Boone! And if you can't trust Garfield's Dad and Riceone who can you trust?
 
#26 · (Edited)
Glad you asked ! I thought no one would…. boohoo.
A few of us (including members of this board, and some Luger gurus including Mike Krause) examined the item in question at the last Reno show where it was on display, and here are the observations we made.

1) The Luger has the safety area (left rear frame side) ground flat to remove the original German markings and replaced with Kanji 安. Mike noticed the safety being loose and floppy due to the shaving off of a layer of metal. We saw no reason for the IJN to replace safety markings with Kanji for a test purpose gun.
2) The "flowery" frame top marking design of a naval anchor superimposed with a cherry blossom and a sun ray background has never been seen or used as an IJN marking. There would be no reason for the IJN to mark Lugers meant for test purposes with such an excessive design, and to go through the trouble of creating a roll die to mark an undoubtedly a small quantity of test guns (Only one example known as of date) would be ridiculous for military standards.
3) The Kanji markings on the right frame 試験用拳銃 (Test purpose pistol) is well done as Kanji markings, but does not make sense as a military marking style. A full description of the purpose of the gun is not normal for military use. But more on the problem on this mark later.
4) The Luger is marked in several locations with a purported Toyokawa Naval Arsenal inspection mark of an anchor and an encircled ト (To). The problem with the mark is that the encircled-To is “superimposed” over the anchor (getting familiar ? see above 2) which is not a correct inspection mark for Toyokawa Arsenal which used separate stamps of an anchor and the “encircled-to”, and not superimposed together.
The only other example I know of this strange mark is on a Baby Nambu serial # 613 which is a refinished (nicely refinished, but refinished) gun, that has this same mark stamped on the rear right frame area apparently “over” the refinish (go figure…).
5) Another item of info that was voiced by the Luger gurus was the proof markings of the piece placing the origination of the gun to be an “issued” piece (I don’t know squat about Luger details so don’t know where it was issued to) and hence is not a manufacturer’s virgin piece, which one would expect if the piece was originally meant to be a test gun to be sent from the Luger factory to Japan. So the assumption will be, that the Luger was somehow obtained by the IJN from some German military source in it’s original form and all the markings per above 1) to 4) were done by the Toyokawa Naval Arsenal where the testing was done.

Now with all that, we move on to the TGE test Luger described on the Derby/Brown book.

1) Another weird excessive marking on the frame top of an encircled TGE logo “superimposed” (!!!) over cherry blossom petals. Same thoughts as 2) of above IJN test Luger comments, but there is no realistic reason for TGE to create a roll die and mark the receiver of a test gun with a flowery variation of it’s logo. In addition, such variation of the TGE logo has never been seen before anywhere else. Only on this particular piece.
2) The exact same Kanji markings of 試験用拳銃 on the frame side. The markings on the two Lugers are EXACTLY the same, from either the same die, or expertly engraved by the same hand. Again the problem of why go through the trouble of marking the test Luger with a full description of the purpose. But moreover, how could two exact same markings be placed on Luger’s that were supposed to be marked and tested at completely different locations, ie Toyokawa where the navy arsenal was and Tokyo where TGE was ?

With above pointers and the three guns involved, the IJN Luger, the TGE Luger and Baby #613, our conclusion would be that all three of these guns went through some pretty fancy treatment by the same person.

If any other guns surfaces with bonafide provenance, then I will change my mind, but for now all three are fake marked guns.
 
#28 ·
ON the contrary, I hope the new owner does read this and returns the fake for his money back. Every time it is sold "without" provenance, it gets farther from the truth, IMO.

Here are the auction pictures of the luger in question, just so they don't get lost or forgotten.
 

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