BATF Letters: C&R Makarovs, etc.
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Thread: BATF Letters: C&R Makarovs, etc.

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    Default BATF Letters: C&R Makarovs, etc.

    A request was made for a copy of the BATF(E) letter regarding which Makarovs are C&R. Here it is, courtesy of Arcom the First.

    SlimTim

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    Last edited by SlimTim; 08-31-2011 at 10:23 PM.
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  2. #2
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    More relevant ATF Letters:

    The "50 Year old" Rule:
    http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go.../cnrover50.htm

    Pre-license Acquisitions, C&Rs acquired w/o "using" license, Can I sell? Profit, & other general C&R questions:
    http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go...3/cnrbiz02.htm

    Open Letter to all C&R holders regarding pre-license, private and 4473 acquisitions, etc. :
    http://www.cruffler.com/BATFOpenLetterToC&RHolders.pdf

    SlimTim
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  3. #3
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    Letter from BATF regarding how long you must keep your bound book.

    SlimTim
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails atf-bound-book-retention-letter.jpg

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTim View Post
    Pre-license Acquisitions, C&Rs acquired w/o "using" license, Can I sell? Profit, & other general C&R questions:
    http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go...3/cnrbiz02.htm
    That appears to be a dead link. The other ones worked OK though.

    All that stuff should be in with the material that the ATF sends along with your FFL.

  6. #5
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    10:18 (7 minutes after your post) and I got it just fine. Here's the text:

    October 18, 1996
    From: Jxxx Rxxx


    BATF
    Attn: Curios & Relics
    650 Massachusetts Ave. NW
    Washington, DC 20226-0013

    Dear Sirs, I was talking with some fellow friends who have Curio and Relics licenses, and there seems to be a great deal of confusion over one aspect of this license. I would like to get this clarified in a written response from you, so that I can provide my friends with a copy of the ''real'' answer to these questions.

    The question concerns what requirements there might be to record purchase and sale of curio and relic firearms that were acquired before receiving the C&R license or that are purchased within the state where the C&R license is not required.


    * Once the license is received, do all previously owned C&R guns in your possession have to be logged in the bound book? -- NO! (A) --
    * If a C&R gun that was acquired before the license was received is then subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged in the bound book? --NO! (A) --
    * Once in possession of the C&R license, do C&R guns that are not purchased through interstate mail have to be logged in the bound bok? ie: If I buy a C&R gun from a local gun store, where the C&R license is not necessary, does that gun need to be logged in? -- YES! (B) --
    * If the above C&R gun, purchased locally without the C&R license, is subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged n the bound book? -- YES! (B) --
    There is one other question of a different nature that also seems to besurrounded by confusion. Since the C&R license is not for purposes of ''dealing'' in firearms, what restrictions are there upon selling pieces from your collection?

    * If I purchase a gun through the mail which turns out to be of such poor quality that I don't want it, can I sell it? -- YES! (C) (D) --
    * Do I have to hold it for a year first? -- NO! (C) (D) --
    *If I find a higher quality rifle which duplicates one I already have, can I sll the lower quality rifle? -- YES! (C) (D) --
    * Is there some limit on the number of trades or sales per year? -- NO! (C) (D) --

    I've checked the Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide for answers to these questions, but could not find anything that addressed these issues. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

    Sincerely,
    Jxxx Rxxx


    *******************

    The BATF replied:
    Department of the Treasury
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
    Washington, DC 20226
    Dear Mr. Rxxx,
    This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
    In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
    (A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
    (B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
    (C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
    (D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

    We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

    Sincerely yours,
    Charles Bartlett
    Acting Chief
    Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch
    --------------6F2B21496506940BFFB96015--


    ************************
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  7. #6
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    Exclamation Regs on Mailing Pistols

    Not ATF, but USPS. Definitive word: not for C&Rs.

    http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub52.pdf

    Use this link (above) to reference. Below is the text from above link in a jumbled mess. Copying from PDF doesn't work well.

    SlimTim

    Section 43 (page 63).

    43 Firearms
    431 Definitions
    431.1 Firearm
    A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed,
    or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring,
    or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to
    be used as a weapon.
    431.2 Handgun
    Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the
    person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are
    defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
    a. Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be
    fired by the use of a single hand.
    b. Short-Barreled Rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16
    inches long is defined as a short-barreled rifle. This includes any
    weapon made from a rifle (by alteration or modification) resulting in an
    overall length of less than 26 inches.
    c. Short-Barreled Shotgun. A shotgun having one or more barrels less
    than 18 inches long is defined as a short-barreled shotgun. This
    includes any weapon made from a shotgun (by alteration or
    modification) resulting in an overall length of less than 26 inches.
    431.3 Antique Firearm
    An antique firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
    cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or
    431.4 Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail
    64 Publication 52
    before 1898, or any replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the
    following conditions:
    a. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
    centerfire fixed ammunition.
    b. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, which is no
    longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available
    through ordinary commercial trade channels.
    431.4 Rifles and Shotguns
    A rifle is a shoulder weapon having a barrel that is 16 inches or more in
    length. A shotgun has a barrel of 18 inches or more in length. Rifles and
    shotguns have an overall length of 26 inches or greater and cannot be
    capable of being concealed on a person.
    431.5 Licensed Manufacturer/Licensed Dealer
    A manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer in firearms is one duly
    licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), U.S.
    Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968.
    432 Mailability
    432.1 General
    The following conditions apply:
    a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on
    the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic
    mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.
    b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable
    firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable
    except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.
    c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are
    generally permitted as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.2.0.
    d. Unloaded rifles and shotguns may be mailed if the mailer fully complies
    with the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618) and 18 U.S.C.
    921. The mailer may be required to establish, by opening the parcel or
    by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not excluded from
    mailing because of the restrictions in 431.2b and c.
    432.2 PS Form 1508
    PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by
    each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The
    form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.
    Restricted Matter 432.2
    July 1999 65
    Exhibit 432.1
    Mailability Requirements for Firearms
    Handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer or dealer, an authorized federal agent, or an authorized state,
    territory, or district agent ONLY when addressed to one of the following addressee categories for use in official
    duties:
    Addressee Affidavit Requirements
    a. Officer of Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine
    Corps, or organized reserve corps.
    b. Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, district, or
    territory.
    Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
    certificate signed by commanding officer.
    c. Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or
    territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of
    arrest or commitment.
    d. USPS employees specifically authorized by the chief
    postal inspector.
    e. Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.
    Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
    certificate signed by head of agency employing the
    addressee.
    f. Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district,
    or territory property.
    Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
    certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau,
    or branch of government agency employing the
    addressee.
    g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of an
    agency employing officers and personnel included in
    c, d, or e above.
    Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
    certificate signed by the head of agency stating the
    firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in
    c, d, or e of the opposite column.
    Unloaded Handgun
    Mailer must be licensed manufacturer or dealer mailing to another licensed
    manufacturer or dealer.
    Addressee is FBI (or its Director) or scientific lab or crime detection bureau of any
    agency whose members are federal law enforcement officers, or state, district, or
    territory officers authoirzed to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.
    Manufacturers or dealers must complete PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of
    Firearms, and file with the postmaster.
    Postmasters may forward an unsatisfactory mailer statement to their RCSC for a ruling.
    Unloaded Rifle or Shotgun
    Short-barrelled rifles or shotguns that can be concealed on the person are
    nonmailable.
    Mailer must comply with Gun Control Act of 1968 and with state and local laws.
    USPS may require mailer to open parcel or give written certification that
    weapon is unloaded and not concealable.
    Registered mail service is recommended
    Unloaded Antique Firearm
    Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are acceptable
    for mailing.
    432.3 Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail
    66 Publication 52
    432.3 Packaging and Marking
    No markings of any kind that indicate the nature of the contents may be
    placed on the outside wrapper or container of any mailpiece containing
    firearms. Mailable matter must be properly and securely packaged within the
    general packaging requirements in DMM C010.
    433 Mailer Responsibility
    Even though certain types of firearms are permitted to be mailed within the
    provisions of the postal law in 18 U.S.C. 1715, it is the mailer’s responsibility
    to comply with all federal and state regulations and local ordinances affecting
    the movement of firearms.
    434 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
    Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any
    shipment of rifles or shotguns. Mailers should be referred to the nearest
    regional ATF office for further advice. See 435 and Exhibit 435.
    435 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF)
    Exhibit 435 lists the locations of the Department of the Treasury’s regional
    ATF offices.
    Exhibit 435
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Regional Offices
    Office Area Served
    North Atlantic Region
    6 WORLD TRADE CENTER SIXTH FLOOR
    NEW YORK NY 10048-0622
    212-264-2328
    Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New
    Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont
    841 CHESTNUT BUILDING THIRD FLOOR
    PHILADELPHIA PA 19107-4403
    215-597-4107
    Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey,
    Pennsylvania
    Southeast Region
    2600 CENTURY PARKWAY RM 430
    ATLANTA GA 30345-3104
    404-679-5130
    Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, North
    Carolina, Puerto Rico, South Carolina,
    Tennessee, Virgin Islands
    Midwest Region
    550 MAIN STREET
    CINCINNATI OH 45202-3263
    513-684-3334
    District of Columbia, Indiana, Kentucky,
    Michigan, Ohio, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia
    300 SOUTH RIVERSIDE PLZ STE 310
    CHICAGO IL 60606-6613
    312-353-1967
    Arkansas, Colorado, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas,
    Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska,
    New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South
    Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming
    Western Region
    221 MAIN STREET 11TH FLOOR
    SAN FRANCISCO CA 94105-1927
    415-744-9419
    Alaska, Arizona, California, Guam, Hawaii,
    Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon,
    Washington
    Restricted Matter 443.1
    July 1999 67
    436 Nonmailable Firearms Found in the Mails
    Nonmailable firearms discovered in the mailstream must be immediately
    reported in accordance with POM 139.117.
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  8. #7

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    Pre-Archive Bump

  9. #8
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    Not that I doubt your typing skills at all, but it would be great to have a copy of the origional letter.(the link is dead) Good stuff. The part about not logging sales of pre-license C & R's is contrary to everything I've ever read or been told. Always best to go to the source.
    thanks,

    Quote Originally Posted by SlimTim View Post
    10:18 (7 minutes after your post) and I got it just fine. Here's the text:

    October 18, 1996
    From: Jxxx Rxxx


    BATF
    Attn: Curios & Relics
    650 Massachusetts Ave. NW
    Washington, DC 20226-0013

    Dear Sirs, I was talking with some fellow friends who have Curio and Relics licenses, and there seems to be a great deal of confusion over one aspect of this license. I would like to get this clarified in a written response from you, so that I can provide my friends with a copy of the ''real'' answer to these questions.

    The question concerns what requirements there might be to record purchase and sale of curio and relic firearms that were acquired before receiving the C&R license or that are purchased within the state where the C&R license is not required.


    * Once the license is received, do all previously owned C&R guns in your possession have to be logged in the bound book? -- NO! (A) --
    * If a C&R gun that was acquired before the license was received is then subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged in the bound book? --NO! (A) --
    * Once in possession of the C&R license, do C&R guns that are not purchased through interstate mail have to be logged in the bound bok? ie: If I buy a C&R gun from a local gun store, where the C&R license is not necessary, does that gun need to be logged in? -- YES! (B) --
    * If the above C&R gun, purchased locally without the C&R license, is subsequently sold, does that transaction have to be logged n the bound book? -- YES! (B) --
    There is one other question of a different nature that also seems to besurrounded by confusion. Since the C&R license is not for purposes of ''dealing'' in firearms, what restrictions are there upon selling pieces from your collection?

    * If I purchase a gun through the mail which turns out to be of such poor quality that I don't want it, can I sell it? -- YES! (C) (D) --
    * Do I have to hold it for a year first? -- NO! (C) (D) --
    *If I find a higher quality rifle which duplicates one I already have, can I sll the lower quality rifle? -- YES! (C) (D) --
    * Is there some limit on the number of trades or sales per year? -- NO! (C) (D) --

    I've checked the Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide for answers to these questions, but could not find anything that addressed these issues. Thank you in advance for your assistance.

    Sincerely,
    Jxxx Rxxx


    *******************

    The BATF replied:
    Department of the Treasury
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
    Washington, DC 20226
    Dear Mr. Rxxx,
    This is in response to your letter dated October 18, 1996, requesting information concerning the acquisition and disposition of curio and relic firearms.
    In response to your questions, we feel the following information will resolve your areas of concern and confusion:
    (A) Current regulations do not require licensed collectors to record in their bound book firearms acquired prior to obtaining their license. Therefore, subsequent sales of the previously acquired firearms would require no entry in your bound book records.
    (B) If, after obtaining a license, a firearm is acquired for your personal collection, it must be entered into your bound book whether or not you use your collectors' license to purchase the weapon. See 27CFR 178.125(f). Any subsequent sale would have to be entered in your bound book records.
    (C) You may immediately dispose of a firearm to a lawful buyer. The length of time you retain it is immaterial. The determining factor is under what circumstances it was acquired. If the firearm was acquired to enhance your personal collection, and you decide you do not like or want it, the length of time and amount it is sold for do not matter. However, if you acquire guns for the purpose of resale, for profit, you would be engaged in a firearms dealing business and would need a dealers' license. As you are aware, the definition of a dealer is ''A person who devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.'' Therefore, the purpose of the transactions would be the determining factor in whether you were dealing in firearms or merely enhancing your personal collection. The mere fact that you make a profit on the sale of a firearm from your collection would not mean you were dealing in firearms. Repeated transactions which are motivated by the desire to generate profit or income rather than enhancing your collection would indicate you were dealing in furearms, not collecting. If a collector acquires curios or relics for the purpose of sale rather than to enhance a collection, the collector should be a licensed dealer in firearms.The sole intent and purpose f the collectors' license is to enable a firearms collector to obtain a curio or relic from outside his State of residence.
    (D) Disposing of personal firearms for the purpose of upgrading a collection is not engaging in a firearms business.

    We trust this has been responsive to your request. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

    Sincerely yours,
    Charles Bartlett
    Acting Chief
    Firearms and Explosives Operations Branch
    --------------6F2B21496506940BFFB96015--


    ************************
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  10. #9
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    The site is hosted by geocities and use to regularly exceed its bandwidth limit and be taken off line. I'm not sure if that's what has happened or if it's been abandoned, I heard the author is now a Buddhist monk.

    The original letter was never available on the website. The above is cut and pasted from the linked website. Put the link in the searchbar at http://internetarchive.org and see.

    For what it's worth, cut and paste a sentence from the letter into Google and you'll see that the highroad.org has the same letter referenced in it's archives, text only.

    SlimTim
    Last edited by SlimTim; 06-15-2008 at 12:39 PM.
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  11. #10

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    Yeah, I have read somewhere that East German Makarovs and Russian military are C&R eligible, but they are quite expensive. They can more than 200 dollars!
    In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back.
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  12. #11
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    Here is a link to the website above that has been abandoned, via archive.org:

    http://web.archive.org/web/200503201...3/cnrbiz02.htm

    SlimTim
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  13. #12

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    Sorry, I cannot read the letter which stipulates which Mak's are C&R. The way I read it, all EG pistols meet the requirements and some Russian pistols do as well. Would someone be so kind and give me the short version of which Russian guns are C&R.

    Thanks a lot.

    K'dad

  14. #13
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    TENNESSEEAN is offline Super Moderator / Diamond Bullet with oak leaves member
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    Russian Military are C&R Commerical Russian Maks aren't.
    Appalachain American

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by TENNESSEEAN View Post
    Russian Military are C&R Commerical Russian Maks aren't.
    Thanks!! The Russian military are the ones with fixed sites? Sorry for the questions, still learning some things about my favorite guns.

  16. #15

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    I did some more study and believe I have it figured out. Thanks.

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