Mystery Mauser
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    Default Mystery Mauser

    These markings appear on an RC K98k. What is it? (I don't know).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Strange 1.jpg   Strange 2.jpg   Strange 3.jpg  
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    I doubt these are German acceptance markings. Any other markings? Right receiver, the rest of the barrel markings?

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    This is a current auction, I can't give a link. All there is to go by are the photos I posted. There is a very poor photo of the right receiver which appears blank (the first photo above is better). The receiver rail appears to be blank but the photo is not good.

    It is in a German RC stock with German trigger guard and VZ24 bolt, but for an RC, all of that means nothing.

    It does have a German rear sight s/n 7905 with an electro penciled correct s/n 2760. The stock is RC marked with the correct s/n 2760. That suggests it is in fact an RC and - whatever it is - it came out of Russia like that.
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    Well, after I wrote that (and I still agree with what I wrote) I did a little digging in my files and came across a thread from 2004 where a rifle attributed as an ss rifle with these same markings (plus a DH) was discussed. One guy mentions Backboner attributing the circle A as rifles rejected and sent to China (Backboner is not a reference I would reply on to heavily but might look there?)

    Anyway, one guy was hawking the marking as ss, another Mauser Chinese contract diverted to ss use, and I think both are off in the weeds but for what it's worth the rifle discussed then is very much the same, minus the DH on the one you image.

    As it was a Gunboards thread, I will post the picture here. TP can make the call whether that is some violation and remove it but you can also search out a Gunboards thread from August 2004 in search of the actual thread- pics would be gone but I have them if you need them.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 200481145053_family%20186.jpg   20048102235_family%20219.jpg   20048114491_family%20182.jpg   2004810213559_family%20226.jpg   2004810213716_family%20224.jpg   2004810213446_family%20225.jpg  

    20048102242_family%20217.jpg  

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    Paul,

    It does look like the rifle in the photos you found is a close cousin to the subject rifle, only 127 numbers off. The subject rifle does appear to be an RC. Who used K98k rifles without waffenamts except for the SS? Maybe the DH in the photos you found is a real one. Or maybe it is a fake DH applied to a real SS rifle?

    I have an RC in which someone switched the receiver to an FN crest FN1930 receiver and switched the barrel to an unmarked Yugo barrel - so anything is possible. But finding two circle A marked rifles leads me to think that the circle A is an unknown variation, but an actual variation of K98k rifles. I notice both barrels have a K marking.

    I did look at my Chinese K98k. It has Chinese suns but no circle A markings.

    Hopefully someone will have more to add on this, but I'm not holding my breath.

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    How about Spanish origin as used by Blue Division in Russia. I do not know what rifle they used but a Spanish rework of a 98 action would be a good place to start.

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    As suggested, I looked in Backbone and found a photo of the circle A marking on page 286. It was found on a Chinese K98k (???) Borsigwalde rifle with a 1939 (???) stock but fitted with a 1945 (???) bolt, numbered to match the original rifle. The circle A was overstamped on a waffenamt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by insle View Post
    How about Spanish origin as used by Blue Division in Russia. I do not know what rifle they used but a Spanish rework of a 98 action would be a good place to start.
    I seem to recall reading that the Blue Division was supplied with standard German weapons.
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    I have studied the influence of the ss as it relates to the German economy & industry a great deal, especially lately, but I am no authority of any kind on ss rifle variations.

    ScottB or MauserBill would be better at such a determination, but “generally” the ss were not above the law, at least not before the winter of 1943/44. When for all practical purposes they were the law and did damn well anything they wanted- even Speer & Milch could no longer curtail their encroachment into every aspect of industry.

    Therefore, I would expect to see either commercial fireproofing, or at least some fireproof/acceptance on this rifle as DH seem to stop around 1941/2 and are usually accompanied by commercial fireproof.

    Anyway, I am curious about what an educated collector on this variation might think, but these markings are not typical for a German military rifle 1898-1945 and that is mostly what I study.

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    Paul ; Good data... the pic of the older circled A proofed rifle from your captured data sports a fake totehead. The first thing that hit me when I read this thread was a chink mauser as mentioned on the A over earlier proofs when rejected. It's possible I'm thinking that enough accumulated to possibly be treated such in a 'batch'. Maybe a depot got saddled with a large volume of these defects and were simply ordered to make good what they got. No telling all told, but as RC's go value is low.
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    The circle A is in the right places and seems to be intended as some kind of fireproof/acceptance. The question is "Who stamped it?" And "Who used it?" Whoever used it, it seems to have been captured by the Russians either during or after the war.

    Can anything be learned from the markings on the bottom of the receiver?
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    IMO - the circle 'a' marking is contemporary and serves a purpose. A close collector friend and I have noted for years this marking on several MO 98 rifle assemblies and even more components. Occassionally it appears to be used to deface (supersede) another inspection marking but also appears by itself on individual components. This suggests it may be a rejection marking. I would be curious to see how the receiver sidewall is marked or not on this specimen. Not crazy about the Dhd but the pics and whiteout do not offer the best results. It is interesting though to find the Dhd on this assembly or unique palette if you will.

    Scott

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    An A (no circle) was applied to rejected parts (did not pass primary or secondary inspection) during the Imperial period.

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    The subject rifle sold on Gunbroker for $293. I did not bid on it.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=214055237
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    MauserBill, Scott & CB, thanks for the insight, - here is a side view that shows the siderail (looks blank); I didn't add it originally because I didn't want the other rifle to distract from the discussion Geladen sought.

    Geladen, as to the other markings, the only ones that are clearly German is the barrel code, but it lacks acceptance (waffenamt) and it should have them. Further, as it is shown, you cannot even tell who the finisher is as all ordnance spares (sub-contract or depot etc..) should have the mfg code, this one doesn't. In-house have waffenamts and the host rifle to tell you who finished the blank.

    Just a guess, but by the pattern of the barrel code, I would say it is a Mauser Oberndorf barrel, and the Portuguese contract rifles are very much like this, but it could possibly be BSW too. (though in 1937 the 37 should be at the end, not the front for BSW.)

    Imo, it isn't likely anyone other than Mauser that made this barrel, but impossible to say without a waffenamt or ordnance code. It does fit them best, especially the M937 rifles,

    None of the other markings I can attribute to a German military rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott B View Post
    I would be curious to see how the receiver sidewall is marked or not on this specimen.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2004810213559_family%20226.jpg   2004811224045_family%20234.jpg   2004811223917_family%20233.jpg   2004811224319_family%20235.jpg  

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    Too bad he didn't take the time to disassemble the rifle, he does often enough. I looked through Goddard and didn't see a circle A Belgian proof or acceptance, but they do have a "A" with a star over it but this obviously isn't the same counterstamp (seen this on bolts flats). They also have an "A" inside a diamond marking but I do not know its purpose.

    Anyway, I doubt the seller is correct, and I know the barrel isn't Belgian, but Belgian arms are a whole other subject- there are a lot of Belgian makers, and you could spend a lot of time creating a research database on them all.

    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    The subject rifle sold on Gunbroker for $293. I did not bid on it.
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=214055237

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    Much thanks to all for the info provided. One of the circle A rifles (2760 on Gunbroker) is an RC for sure and the other (2633) seems to be an RC from the photos. The mystery of these rifles remains unsolved, but they were likely used by some kind of German soldiers and they were in a position to be captured by the Soviets. I did not bid on the RC on Gunbroker but I would have had it not been an RC. I most likely would have bid on it if it could have been identified and was something interesting to me.
    Last edited by geladen; 02-09-2011 at 01:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimsonSuhl View Post
    Too bad he didn't take the time to disassemble the rifle, he does often enough. I looked through Goddard and didn't see a circle A Belgian proof or acceptance, but they do have a "A" with a star over it but this obviously isn't the same counterstamp (seen this on bolts flats). They also have an "A" inside a diamond marking but I do not know its purpose.

    Anyway, I doubt the seller is correct, and I know the barrel isn't Belgian, but Belgian arms are a whole other subject- there are a lot of Belgian makers, and you could spend a lot of time creating a research database on them all.

    FN rifle parts are often marked with a capital letter in a square, usually an A or B. Sometimes there is instead a capital letter in a circle, that seems to be an earlier marking. The seller had probably seen the FN markings before and claimed the subject rifle was Belgian made. Whether he actually believed that or not is another story, as FN receiver and barrel markings are very different.
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    Hello,

    I have also logged one of these blank receiver circle A with ser1628 RC NO DH all matching electopencil and stock.

    later
    vaughn

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    Looked at 5 Norwegian reworks yesterday,
    all had been in 30/06 but now re-barreled to 308 (In Norway)
    Dates from 1943 1936 1939.(byf 243 147 Codes)
    All had A in Circle on Right Side
    of Receiver. Regards,Tony.
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    Looking at the photos you seem to have a rejected 1939 Oberndorf. The date can be seen in the photos. A in a circle is indeed a reject mark; I have two marked the same way, both from Lubecker. Who they were issued to is another question, however both of mine are bringbacks so they may have been issued to the volksturm or ?. Pure conjecture on my part.

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    For what it's worth my Norwegian 1940 '243' also has the circle A on the right side of receiver.

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    On Norwegian converted mausers "a circle with an A is the stamp of a control officer at Kongsberg named Hardy Ahlgren." courtesy of member BMF -

    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...uestions/page2

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    I Just recieved this gun from a family friend, Her father brought it back from Europe at the end of ww2.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVktFgkPwho the link is in 1080p for anyone who wants more than the pictures
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0521.jpg   IMG_0522.jpg   IMG_0523.jpg   IMG_0524.jpg   IMG_0525.jpg   IMG_0526.jpg  

    IMG_0527.jpg   IMG_0536.jpg   IMG_0537.jpg   IMG_0538.jpg   IMG_0539.jpg   IMG_0540.jpg  

    Last edited by nw00738; 10-18-2011 at 03:52 PM.

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    It looks like the circle A means "rejected". But when things get really rough, the rejects are put into service. In German, out of tolerance is "aus der Toleranz". Maybe that is what the A stands for.
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    Figured i would show my oddball off. Anyone have more information on these?





    Attachment 2055874Attachment 2055882Attachment 2055890

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    Photo no worko.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Photo no worko.

    Not sure why, Here are some links to the Mauser.


    http://imgur.com/a/851JQ

    http://imgur.com/a/dVuxb

    http://imgur.com/a/LUacJ

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    I have a Mauser here, It's converted to 30-06 Spring, and it's a Gewehr 98, dated 1916, DWM, made in Berlin, I belive the stock is sporterized, barrel length is 21 and a half inches, other then this I don't know a whole lot, I'll attach pictures for you guys to see, please let me know anything you know about it.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20170307_215503_1489883593990.jpg   20170307_215515_1489883617281.jpg   Screenshot_20170308-020027_1489883650548.jpg   20170304_202647_1489883671962.jpg   20170317_001327_1489883708691.jpg   20170317_001344_1489883737057.jpg  


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    Not so much sporterized as assaulted.
    "Don't rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again." -Bertolt Brecht

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellsMausers View Post
    I have a Mauser here, It's converted to 30-06 Spring, and it's a Gewehr 98, dated 1916, DWM, made in Berlin, I belive the stock is sporterized, barrel length is 21 and a half inches, other then this I don't know a whole lot, I'll attach pictures for you guys to see, please let me know anything you know about it.
    Just a word to the wise - Since you have only one post, you might want to consider changing your user name to something less disrespected here.
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    ^what he said!

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Just a word to the wise - Since you have only one post, you might want to consider changing your user name to something less disrespected here.
    Now that is just funny! Maybe that IS Mitchell?

    In regards to the REST of the thread, resurrected from the deep, an excellent discussion with cited sources in good discussion. AND THE PICTURES ARE STILL THERE! AMAZING

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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    Just a word to the wise - Since you have only one post, you might want to consider changing your user name to something less disrespected here.
    I have to agree.

    Also, keep in mind this is the Military Mauser Forum. MM, your rifle is no longer in military configuration, it has been sporterized after passing from military use to the civilian market. You might try posting it in the Commercial and Military Sporting Arms Forum at:

    http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...ing-Arms-Forum
    Last edited by TP; 03-19-2017 at 08:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellsMausers View Post
    I have a Mauser here, It's converted to 30-06 Spring, and it's a Gewehr 98, dated 1916, DWM, made in Berlin, I belive the stock is sporterized, barrel length is 21 and a half inches, other then this I don't know a whole lot, I'll attach pictures for you guys to see, please let me know anything you know about it.
    Since you asked: the stock seems to be from a US Springfield M1903, cut down. The handguard and the rear sight seem to be from a US Krag rifle. The rear sight, apparently an 1892 version, is on backwards. The front sight is a commercial replacement. All parts were forced together into a quasi-military looking rifle. Some people call such rifles a "whatzit". It certainly is a conversation piece at the gun range or hunt.

    If you decide to do more customizing, such as adding a scope, save the Krag handguard and rear sight. They have value as spare parts and you may be able to sell them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryg View Post
    Since you asked: the stock seems to be from a US Springfield M1903, cut down. The handguard and the rear sight seem to be from a US Krag rifle. The rear sight, apparently an 1892 version, is on backwards. The front sight is a commercial replacement. All parts were forced together into a quasi-military looking rifle. Some people call such rifles a "whatzit". It certainly is a conversation piece at the gun range or hunt.

    If you decide to do more customizing, such as adding a scope, save the Krag handguard and rear sight. They have value as spare parts and you may be able to sell them.
    I started to write what you wrote and was going to ask about Bannerman, sure seems to be a similar job.

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