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  1. #1
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    Default pros and cons of short barrel PSL

    I know the guy,who knows the guy who cut his PSL to 21", and I am personally think its a waist of a good rifle,maybe I am wrong , so what do you guys think about 21" barrel on PSL and is it going to effect its accuracy at the long distances, 200 to 700 yards ?
    Golani 12th Battalion

  2. #2
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    How accurate is it now?
    I know of a few people who have shortened their PSL barrels to reduce barrel whip, and at one time there was a PSL offered with a shorter barrel that had been trimmed down by the builder, Tennessee Gun Parts.
    I was tempted to get one as a second PSL, but I still had a couple of other milsurp rifles to add to my collection first.
    "Conceal Carry. Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

  3. #3
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    How short? How will it effect accuracy? Is there a difference in velocity?
    A Mosin M38 or M44 can indeed remain accurate with their short barrels. Muzzle blast is a notable side effect but bullet velocity is not drastically reduced.
    Obviously, the PSL has been cut short and I believe there are still a few outfits out there modifying short barrel versions.
    It would be interesting to know precisely what the difference in velocity is from direct comparison chrono results.
    Does accuracy improve by reducing barrel whip? Another curious subject.
    I still contemplate lopping off a couple inches, removing muzzle brake, front sight base and bayo lug replacing with a target crown and quality threaded brake.
    It would be nice to see some documented results prior to breaking out the torch and hacksaw.

  4. #4
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    First let me say I own and very much enjoy a PSL. That said, I think there are better ways to improve the accuracy of the PSL. Finding the right ammo and improving the trigger right at the top. I do like the idea of shortening the barrel but more for ergonomics rather than accuracy. Finding a competent gunsmith who can chop the barrel and cut a target crown shouldn't be hard to find. There is at least one outfit that specializes in modding the PSL in that way--Rifle Dynamics "GSR" conversion, about $450. Finding precisely the velocity and accuracy changes resulting from shortening a PSL barrel might be hard to find. I think most any properly made PSL with the right ammo and an improved trigger is capable of MOA acuracy.

    HTH

  5. #5
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    I saw PSL with 16.25" barrel in the pic. post ,AKBLUE, tell us more about this rifle and if I am wrong and its preforms same as long version , I am cutting mine.
    Golani 12th Battalion

  6. #6
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    I think 20" would be about right, wouldn't go under 18".

  7. #7
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    I think a PSL would be a PERFECT candidate for the new "Straight-Jacket" barrel system from Teludyne Tech. I think I'd leave the barrel at 24" though...

    I really like the idea of it!. It would really solve the issues of shot stringin as barrel heats, and REALLY tone down barrel harmonics to a minimum
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  8. #8
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    Wasnt there once a shorter barrel

    version called a ' ' tiger ' ' . Just

    curious .



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  9. #9
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    I think ,Tigr is Dragunov's civilian/hunting version not a PSL,
    PSL has a paratrooper, I am not sure about the barrel lengths
    Golani 12th Battalion

  10. #10
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    Mmmmmk , thanks 'cause i dont

    know a thing about them .



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  11. #11
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    Yup, the Tigr is the short version of the SVD. Completely different weapon. They have a similiar appearance and the same mission, but...

    As for shortening the barrel of the PSL, there are studies that show that the new Scout Rifles are as accurate as the longer versions of bolt action rifles. I don't see why it wouldn't apply to semi's, as well. I wouldn't be willing to shorten it to the point of moving the gas tube port back towards the receiver, as that would effect the speed/timing of the action. I am not for modding the weapon, anyway, but, if I were to do such, that would be my limiting factor. Look at the speed of the action of an XM177 vs M16, or a Shuchka vs a standard Ak47-type rifle. The action speeds are much faster, and you get a higher rate of fire in F/A. That is because of the shorter action time.

    To me, it's not worth the expense and trouble. But, I do realize that many of you love to tinker. I'm just not willing to spend the money or time with such a project. I'm satisfied with mine, the way it is.
    Last edited by TW1Kell; 03-10-2011 at 08:07 AM. Reason: typos
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  12. #12
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    I don't know about investing almost as much money as the gun cost to customize it ...
    The rifle, as is, certainly proved sufficiently accurate with a minor investment. The RSA trigger alone is a key element in improving accuracy with a much more precise trigger action adjusted exactly the way you want it.

    The barrel is inherently accurate ...
    My "custom", with VersaPod bi-pod and Accushot monopod, RAS trigger and 40x scope is quite capable of hitting golf balls and quarters at 220m. It is almost on par with my "custom" M39 bolt.
    Although I am satisfied with with it in its current form, I still think a little more can be wrung out of it and that solution lies at the front of the barrel. Getting rid of the extra weight and less than quality muzzle brake may or may not make a substantial difference.
    Talking about this makes me want to get back to that project, long neglected over the winter, and get it done.

  13. #13
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    Any reduction in barrel length will reduce muzzle velocity and energy. It may not be enough to really matter though, you'll just have to account for a little more bullet drop downrange.

  14. #14
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    Agreed, and is it a viable/worthwhile project? So often, in here, we see these "projects" discussed, and I have to wonder what is fueling the discussion. Is it cost effective? probably not. Is it worth the headache as compared to the pleasure one would gain from working through the problem? Again, I say, probably not. I guess that's the point of having discussion boards, but, so many times, I just want to throw up my hands and laugh. As a bike mechanic that owned my own shop, I had the privilige of being able to say, "No! I willl NOT put that Harley part on your Honda!" I didn't want to go through the aggravation of cutting and welding and lining things up, only to make it less reliable because of non-standard parts, and I don't want to make it "non-repairable" for the next clown to have to "f" with it. I often come off as being very negative, in here, while I am actually quite the opposite. I do love a challenge, but I like to fight battles that I can see a possibility of winning. I leave my PSL stone stock, and I simply work on better marksmanship practices. "I'm just sayin'", as people do love to say now-a-days...
    Last edited by TW1Kell; 03-10-2011 at 07:11 PM. Reason: I can't type fer shite!
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  15. #15
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    Well said Brother.

  16. #16
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    I just think if shortening the PSL made it tons more accurate the Romanian Army would have changed it up long ago. With that said yes, I have some really accurate shorter rifles but larger diameter. I bet if you did slow motion film of any of my rifles you would see it whipping like a damn snake. Truely amazing how much warping goes on when a rifle is fired. Anyway.........

  17. #17
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    Have ya'all watched the video of the Barret Light "Fitty", slapping the scope against the receiver when it fires? It totally tsunami's the receiver/scope rail, upon firing. I realize that ol Ma Deuce is a hell of a round, but that's a helluva receiver, as well. I suspect that what everyone sees in the PSL videos is about par for the course in weapons. So many people seem to be way overthinking this whole thing. If you think too much about how many parts are in a jet or helo, and the temperatures and stresses involved....you'd never fly, cars? Motorcycles? Hell, we'd never get over 15 mph!

    I can only say...Buy a bolt action, if it bothers you so much. (But it's barrel is probably doin' the same thing)
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  18. #18
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    I have my PSL (have had it for more than a decade now) and own it more because of the type of rifle it is and not because of its accuracy. I have an extremely fine Pedersen 3000 in 30-06 for my very very accurate shooting. My NDM-86 and PSL exist solely for entertainment and that whole "just in case" scenario. Both rifles are equally accurate, both are odd-looking to the extreme without changing them, and both are fun to shoot. In the end, neither is super accurate nor are the platforms capable of being super accurate. In the end, to make them super accurate would make them super expensive without a prayer of recouping costs. I don't see the need to modify, personally.

    But it takes all kinds to make the world work. I have a 1949 Ford F1 in original condition and can't for the life of me see why anyone would take something that was manufactured more than 60 years ago and hot-rod it - they don't make any more of them! But, I do know guys that think a 1949 Ford doesn't look right unless they throw out the flat-head and replace it with a small-block V-8, trash the suspension for something more road-worthy, discard the positive-ground AM radio with something more pleasing to the ears, and then add air conditioning to boot. For all that trouble, I say buy a new Ford as the old one is obviously not for you. But, that's just me.
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  19. #19
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    I looked up the "Straight-Jacket" barrel system from Teludyne Tech and found that most interesting. Anyone ask them if they ever did a PSL?
    Surely the gun was never designed to be a super accurate long range sniper. It proves quite adequate for the role it was intended to fulfill.
    It is, however, a point of curiosity to see what minor flaws can be corrected and improvements made.
    I enjoy tinkering just for the sake of tinkering. Having had some considerable success with "projects" on a number of guns, I am encouraged to keep fooling around with them just because.
    I already achieved more than "out of the box" with my tinker PSL which drives me to pursue even more. Every success is a lesson learned that can be applied to the next project. One modification turned out to be a time wasting failure but did yield some information about how number of shots and steadily rising temperatures does considerably warp and alter the barrel.
    The "Straight Jacket" concept and video intrigues me as to what effect it might yield on a PSL barrel that shakes and whips like a wet noodle and vastly alters shape as it heats up.
    Not that I want to invest that kind of money to find out ... but if I saw actual results, I might consider it.
    It further prompts the question of what would happen from removing the extra weight bouncing around on the front end by removing the front sight base and the bayo lug. Getting rid of them could have considerable reduction in the whip.
    The muzzle brake on the PSL is just slightly better than a POS. Mounting is poor and likely not perfectly concentric, especially on the press on versions. I already know how much influence that can have. Inability to get inside it to clean the accumulated fouling off the crown is another major accuracy factor to be addressed. Fouling in a brake will certainly screw up accuracy. The brake design on the Teludyne system looks smartly designed. It is very much along the lines of what I am looking for in a brake. A brake I want, but have not found, must have large slots or openings and unscrew for easy and complete cleaning and allow access to the crown for cleaning and touching up when necessary. It must effectively reduce recoil by 50% without being obnoxious or blowing back into your face and needs to direct the gas to overcome the up left jump of the barrel.
    Although much of the whip and jump occur after the bullet has left the bore, I already know that taming recoil does have substantial effect on accuracy. Using a 40X scope to hit small objects at long distance is my game. Losing the target or not being able to see the impact through the scope from the jump is my annoyance. I would like to get my PSL to sit perfectly still enough so the crosshairs remain on target after the shot and I would like to be able to follow the vapor trail of the bullet down range. It's already close but not close enough.
    I'll continue to putz with it just because ...

  20. #20
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    I'm happy with the accuracy I get out of my PSL, just as I am with my Garands...it is what it is.

    My accurate 7.62 x 54 rifle is my Finnish Mosin Nagant, anyway.
    "Conceal Carry. Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

  21. #21
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    If you spend more than 1 minute looking at the "muzzle brake" of a stock PSL, you'll notice that it appears to (actually) be a flash-dispersal unit, and not much intended toward being a brake. It throws gasses out in a true radial pattern with no intent toward directing gasses to counter recoil or rifling twist. I believe that this is another case of "expecting something other than what the design was meant to offer." PSL's are very commonly victims of this type of assumption. ANY, true muzzle brake will probably improve the minimal recoil of a PSL.
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  22. #22
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    I think what you have is a case of slick advertising. These could never have come in with flash-hiders but with a muzzle brake...
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  23. #23
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    Ya lost me, Davis. All of the muzzle devices that I've seen on PSL's are for the dispersion of muzzle gasses but not to redirect in any direcation other than a radial pattern. Muzzle brakes generally disperse the gas in the direction opposite of that which the muzzle attempts to climb, as you know. Other than that, I dunno what this thing could be called. hahaha!
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  24. #24
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    its like comparing the SVD to the SVDS. the SVDS has a muzzle velocity of 810m/s the SVD has 820m/s. they both shoot the same distance and when comparing my tigr02/SVDS to my friends tigr04/SVD they are both as accurate as each other. IMO its well worth sacrificing the 20m/s in muzzle velocity because in the end my rifle makes up for it in other areas such as being more practical, easier to carry, doesnt get snagged up on things, isnt as front end heavy making it balance better and is no less accurate. if you use your rifle for hunting then having a shorter barrel will be an advantage especially in woodland areas.

  25. #25
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    My point is that if they would not have been imported with a flash hiding or dispersing device but a muzzle brake was fine. After all, sniper rifles are bad, hunting rifles okay - semantics run the world.

    And I'm glad, because Tigers look odd.
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  26. #26
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    The distinction between "flash suppressor" (banned) and muzzle brake (ok) is confusing to the point where few people know the difference. Most military attachments at the end of a barrel are dual purpose. Some actually reduce recoil by directing a portion of the gas backwards to counteract recoil, even if only minimally. If you study the brake on a Hakim, it was actually a very advanced design for the time thoughtfully crafted to reduce muzzle jump. The true test is what happens if you take it off. If recoil increases, then it must serve as a brake.
    "Flash suppressor" is one of those terms, like "Assault Rifle" latched on to by the anti-gun crowd back when they looked through picture books for scary guns to ban. To them, anything on the end of a muzzle makes the gun evil! Goes hand in hand with their obsession with bayonet lugs and fears of drive-by bayoneting.

    The muzzle brake on a PSL has many faults. The rifle may perform much better with a quality design brake that can reduce recoil and compensate for muzzle climb. If I ever find one, I'll let you know.

  27. #27
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    My point: The SLR-95 muzzle brake actually acts as a great flash suppressor. Many people have had luck with other brakes/suppressors on the PSL. Just look at the pic section.

    Edit: does the pinned on version of the PSL brake look like its backwards to anyone else?

  28. #28
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    I wonder how hard these things are to remove, once you get the pin out. Anyone try it?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ak_milsurp View Post
    I think a PSL would be a PERFECT candidate for the new "Straight-Jacket" barrel system from Teludyne Tech. I think I'd leave the barrel at 24" though...

    I really like the idea of it!. It would really solve the issues of shot stringin as barrel heats, and REALLY tone down barrel harmonics to a minimum
    This sounds like a great idea! Never thought of using the "Straight-Jacket" on this rifle, but it could be deadly efficient!

  30. #30
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    I emailed them asking if they have ever installed one on a PSL and how they deal with gas block and handguard mounting.
    It looks very interesting for a long barrel bolt action rifle but may not be practical for the PSL.

  31. #31
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    I just found a write up on a PSL with straight jacket installed on another forum. So yes it HAS been done. I called Teludyne and they said "NO PROBLEM". THe gent who had it done said it was amazing...

    Sooo...next time I get a cash infusion, I know where my PSL is going!

    Watch this video, it shows the PSL with straight jacket installed- I LIKE IT!

    http://www.youtube.com/Sturmgewehre#p/u/21/TwUI-uIl-cw

    WInks!

    Quote Originally Posted by db2044 View Post
    I emailed them asking if they have ever installed one on a PSL and how they deal with gas block and handguard mounting.
    It looks very interesting for a long barrel bolt action rifle but may not be practical for the PSL.
    Last edited by ak_milsurp; 11-06-2011 at 04:03 AM.
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  32. #32
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    Yeah, but they said the PSL is a 4-6 MOA rifle prior to the straight jacket and that they get down to 2 MOA. I have a PSL and 2 MOA is already no problem.
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  33. #33
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    I know that many people who shoot the Saiga's in 7.62 x 51 that the 16" barrel seems to shoot a little better than the 22" barrel. I lusted after one of these for a few years. When I finally handled one, my enthusiasm died on the spot. They really need to be converted back to true AK style to get better ergonomics. By then you could have gotten a PSL. So that is what I did.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by db2044 View Post
    The distinction between "flash suppressor" (banned) and muzzle brake (ok) is confusing to the point where few people know the difference.
    Banned flash suppressors? On imports or in general? I hope not, because I use a Smith Vortex on my SAR8. Like TW1, I couldn't call my PSL's device a muzzle brake, it just doesn't kick those gasses upwards.

    I like the idea of a short barrelled PSL...puts it in the same class as other carbines chambered in full size cartridges like the Saiga in 7.62x54 (converted, or course) and the MAS 49/56. A good combination of CQB potential with better accuracy at distance.

    Keith

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    Regarding dampening the harmonics, has anyone ever experimented with wrapping the barrel in the same manner that folks do with the Mosin PU? Seems to work with them, more often than not. I'll have to experiment with that on my next trip out.

    Keith

  36. #36
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    I could see taking the PSL down a little if you really want a look of the shorter barrel. You wanna check the burning of the 7.62x54. I took my FAL down to an 18" barrel so that I could utilize the full burn of the 51 but not poke out so darn far. I'm sure x54 burns right around 18" as well.

    trainsktg, it would be interesting to experiment with wrapping the barrel to see if it helps.
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  37. #37
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    21 inches is optimal for the PSL in terms of return in velocity vs. barrel length. Some even advocate 19 inches, but that may be a tad too short if you're going to 500m+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trainsktg View Post
    I couldn't call my PSL's device a muzzle brake, it just doesn't kick those gasses upwards.
    Not all muzzle brakes are for reduced rise; ones on PSL's are just to reduce recoil in general

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark75H View Post
    Not all muzzle brakes are for reduced rise; ones on PSL's are just to reduce recoil in general
    A good point I hadn't considered.

    Keith

  40. #40
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    Also, remember that the purpose of a flash suppressor is often misunderstood. It's not designed, so much, as preventing the "enemy" from seeing your flash, it's to allow the firer to fire without being completely blinded in night combat. TRUE flash suppressors, are sound suppressors, as well. They're comonly called "cans".
    Last edited by TW1Kell; 11-07-2011 at 07:45 AM. Reason: typos
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