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Thread: ADVICE - What the heck is it ......poss Schuetzen or Flobert Parlor Rifle ?

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    Default ADVICE - What the heck is it ......poss Schuetzen or Flobert Parlor Rifle ?

    I just picked this up and was told it was a Schuetzen Rifle, Zimmerstutzen, Flobert, Parlor Rifle. It is gorgeous but ... has a crack in the stock by the "bat" logo.... and on top the metal but plate is missing a 1" chunk. I have tried to do my best in find out what this is as it has no marking except the bat logo and 5. at the end of the muzzle... Everything is functional, Set trigger , hammer, has a breach under the barrel about half way down the barrel that looks to accept a priming cap.

    Can anyone tell me what i have and a value as i am planning on listing it but i am looking for guidance not trying to place a sale ad here, which i know is not permitted. Just want some advice so i dont look stupid when i go to sell.

    Thanks for your assistance.











    Last edited by gilroyguns; 04-10-2011 at 02:12 PM.

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    I am not an expert but it looks somewhat "home made" to me - at least from the photos above. The reason I say that is that it looks like it has been overly refinished in the carven area which may or may not be original, the triggerguard assembly looks like a rough casting as does the buttplate (may be just the results of rust removal), the lockplate doesn't look like it fits properly and the "bat" plate just looks plain odd :-) Better closeups would help.

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    Could well be home-made...or lesser grade, not like some of the really fine Schuetzens. The trigger guard is a casting, they all were, gunsmiths didn't make something like that, they bought them from somebody else who did the castings.

    I'm interested in that barrel...it accepts a cap halfway down the length? And the muzzle...that's an extremely small caliber. It looks like it might be a sleeve inside a larger bore, for practicing in gallery shooting. That must be a barrel release on the bottom of the forestock, maybe it's a hooked-breech barrel?

    The "bat" plate behind the lock bolt, that looks like a European style.

    The wood has a lot of figure but it's varied and random, not like a premium stock.

    Very interesting, wanting to hear what the knowledgeable people here have to say.
    Last edited by Coldwood; 04-10-2011 at 04:18 PM.
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    Looks like a burl stock and it was doing pretty well till like coldwood I took a look at the castings. I dunno.
    Oldgoat46
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    Schuetzen Rifle, Zimmerstutzen, Flobert, Parlor Rifle.

    OK - Schuetzen is just German for "shooting". Came to be a a term of art for a particular type of taget shootig, involving off-hand shooting, with rather specialized single-shot breech-loaders.

    Zimmerstutzen is German for "Room rifle" - gun intended for indoor shooting (or in the garden behind the house, eh?).

    Flobert was a person, developed one of the earliest self-contained cartridges, the BB Cap, later CB cap and immediate parent of the rim-fire. BB Cap (Bulleted Breech Cap) was essentially a round ball in a short rimfire case with primer only propellant. CB Cap (Conical Builleted Cap) was about the same thing except with a conical bullet and a little bit of propellant (initially black powder) - a more powerful BB Cap. These preceeded the various rimfire cartridges in introduction. There were a number of Flobert cartridges over the years, but the commonest (and i'd say most useful) are .22s. There were also guns made by Flobert using his cartridges

    Parlor Rifle is what an English speaker would call a Zimmerstutzen.

    This one has a Schuetzen-stye stock and looks to me to be likely chambered for one of the Flobert rounds, so falls into the Zimmerstutzen or Parlor Rifle class (essentially same thing by different names). I have seen some with the loading arrangements you describe, from Germany, Austria, and Belgium.

    Unless very fine, they aren't worth a lot, but are neat little guns. The purpose they served has pretty well been taken over by modern air rifles.
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    Clyde, what's going on with that barrel, about halfway down? Gilroyguns said it looked like it would accept a priming cap? How was it loaded? Don't mean to belabor the point, just curious.
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    Does this pic help any


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    That sure is odd. Assuming that it's a Flobert rimfire-type cartridge, how would it be loaded at that point in the barrel? Is there a chamber there in which the round is inserted and some sort of block to hold it in place? Does the hammer force some sort of extension that far forward to hit the cartridge rim or base? What do those two screws do and what is that apparent filled differently-colored dovetail? Questions, questions :-)

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    If you look VERY carefully at the 'lock' you'll see that it has an extension to the hammer that actuates the firing pin in the chamber located halfway down the barrel. This parlour rifle is a 4mm Flobert calibre toy for after-dinner shooting in the gentleman's retiring room or on a garden terrace.

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    Could be a Quackenbush , they made some pretty strange stuff !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldwood View Post
    Clyde, what's going on with that barrel, about halfway down? Gilroyguns said it looked like it would accept a priming cap? How was it loaded? Don't mean to belabor the point, just curious.
    It has, as Tac said, a long FP that strikes a cartridge rim (I suspect Terry is right about it being a 4mm Flobert) that is chambered up front, much nearer the muzze than the breech. A 4mm istead of a 22 BB Cap, essential. Don't think it is Quackenbush, suspect it is Belgian, Guild gun probably.
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    Then perhaps there may be Belgian proofmarks under the wood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudy View Post
    Then perhaps there may be Belgian proofmarks under the wood?
    There may be. Just have to look and see. If it is Belgian, they WILL be present. It could also be German, produced by a maker who didn't put his name on it. If so, there will German proofs somewhere.The more I look at it, the more it reminds me of one Herb Wills had, which he picked up in Germany.
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    any idea of value guys ?

    i have my fingers crossed, now i just wanna recoup my investment....lol

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    I just saw this thread and realized that is some type 4mm zimmershutzen (spelling ?). I believe the idea was to use a small 4mm rimfire cartridge that went into a chamber that is halfway up the barrel. They were used for indoor target shooting -- yours is a bit less than I've seen for something like a Zimmerman rifle. The little cartridge in the picture next to a 22lr cartridge is what is used -- I believe. Not having the rifle in hand all I can say is it looks to be a lighter version of the Zimmerman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilroyguns View Post
    any idea of value guys ?

    i have my fingers crossed, now i just wanna recoup my investment....lol
    Value? What somebody will give. Considering the characteristics of this one and its condition - be mainly a decorator instead of a shooter, i think. Maybe $100?
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    Actually I'm not sure about the value since I believe there is a part missing at that opening in the midsection of the barrel. What is missing is the chamber and firing mechanism. This type of shuetzen rifle had a strange setup where the actual rifled barrel was very short and started right at that opening at the underside of the barrel. Go to this url http://www.pbase.com/halp/zimmerstutzen for a bunch of pictures of a fancy rifle and starting at the middle of the second row of pictures, shows the action with the firing device, the barrel muzzle, etc. That "action" is missing from your rifle but if you could just find a collector of these rifles you might be able to sell.
    Last edited by 22_boomer; 09-10-2012 at 05:13 PM.

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    Batman logo....Hmmmm. To be on the safe side, run an ad in the Gotham newspaper asking Batman if he is missing one of his parlor rifles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilroyguns View Post
    any idea of value guys ?

    i have my fingers crossed, now i just wanna recoup my investment....lol
    I believe I saw a fellow on another site that was building a single shot rifle and he had what looked like the same trigger mechanism like on your rifle and he felt lucky to find it. You might be able to go up on one of the auction gun boards and sell it as a parts gun.

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    If you saw that at a gun show, there would be a $500 price tag on it. These are hard to sell because there are few collectors in the market. It is 4MM and all original. It is not a Flobert type rifle. I would not hesitate to fire it with the proper ammo.

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