Brazilian Original Mod 1908 Short Rifle Research Request
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Thread: Brazilian Original Mod 1908 Short Rifle Research Request

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    Default Brazilian Original Mod 1908 Short Rifle Research Request

    Would like to hear from others who own or know of Brazilian Original Model 1908 Short Rifles. Sorry, not interested in modified 1908 Long Rifles. If you can please provide Serial Number and side rail address. If you would like to provide other information and PIC's please feel free to do so. Also please see below link to get and idea what were are trying to accomplish. Thanks. Ed
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...ifle-questions
    mauserdad
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    I have 3 1908 short rifles. Trouble is all have rebuild marked stocks. One is DWM no suffix # m/m but looks like the one John showed. Second Obendorf Ss suffix m/m also looks like JW's pics. Third Obendorf Rr suffix m/m, long rifle sight, 08/34 style stock. JL
    Last edited by JL; 05-05-2011 at 11:29 AM.

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    1908 DWM Ser. B768X followed by another B in a circle.Obviously was in their jungles quite a few times pitted below the stock line browning patina mainly Crest in tact but kinda fant. Anything else ? I've seen some nice rifles from there of late. Seems their guns are dogs or almost new. When I was inspected by ATF about 3 yrs back, this gun was out of the stock, the head girl said is this NFA ? Funny, but not said to demean them they are doing a job. This is our passion and we don't know it all. For instance why No 1911 Brizialian 45s? I've seen a few slides but never a complete gun , wiith Millions of Argentines why NO Brazilians ???

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    Here is my info
    Ser# 3735 Qq. DWM Oberndorf. Has short rifle sight and Short rifle front band.
    mauserdad
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    Thanks for the feedback so far. Groupie what kind of rear sight and front band do you have. Thanks
    mauserdad
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    Groupie, the B before and after the serial are on all 1908s. The suffix letter or letters would be below the number. JL

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    The Springfield Armory Museum' Brazilian M1908 short rifle is number 5145, in almost new unused condition with the short sight leaf graduated to just 1400 meters. My own M1908 short rifle is number B454X, also with sights to 1400 meters. Both were made by DWM Berlin. Each number has the letter "B" before and after, as per JL's description.
    Regards,
    John

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    Default 1908

    All matching including stock, very nice blue, stock has it's share of dings and dents. B front and back, some kind of mark over the serial #7909 and what I think is a Y below, sight to 1400. Marked MOD. 1908. on the other side. If it's import markrd I can't find it. Behind the front site it is marked 103-41. stock disc and no cartouche. Probably refurbed, beautiful bore.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails GEW 018.jpg   GEW 017.jpg   GEW 023.jpg   GEW 024.jpg   GEW 025.jpg   GEW 019.jpg  


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    That is a nice one. Thanks
    mauserdad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Dun View Post
    All matching including stock, very nice blue, stock has it's share of dings and dents. B front and back, some kind of mark over the serial #7909 and what I think is a Y below, sight to 1400. Marked MOD. 1908. on the other side. If it's import markrd I can't find it. Behind the front site it is marked 103-41. stock disc and no cartouche. Probably refurbed, beautiful bore.
    Hi Sgt Dun,
    Great rifle! Could you post a close-up photo of the serial number or confirm that the block letter is in fact a "y"?
    Many thanks,
    John

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    John,as you can see from the information supplied so far, three of the short rifles are DWM Oberndorf with suffix letters in the latter part of the alphabet,Qq, Rr, and Ss. Hope we get more reports. Ed.
    mauserdad
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    I got one DWM Mod 1908 short rifle and the serial number is 9670L. It also has the Brazillian crest.

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    Thank you Sir. Does it have the short rifle rear sight as shown above in the postings?
    mauserdad
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    Mauserdad it has short rifle rear sight just like sgt Dun's Mod 1908. I will try to post pictures tomorrow.

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    Thank you for sharing. Would like to see it.
    mauserdad
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	437546Sorry, I've taken so long to get the pictures of the what I think is the "y", I've been working out of town. I also noticed that the same mark is on the bolt. It resembles a cursive "y". I think you can see it in the attached photos.

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    It may be of interest to some that many hundreds (if not a thousand or so) 08 short rifles were imported by the Old Sacramento Armory in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Some may be import marked "PIMC Sac CA". Got to sort thru them when they came in and either they were like new matching or trashed. There was a full stocked one with nosecap just like a 09 arg carbine but Brazilian and matching. Held on to it for about 10 minutes, along with the other carbines i was buying. Staff to one look and was told "not for sale" by one of the staff.

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    Thank you for that interesting info.. Would have liked to seen that full stock one. Ed
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauserdad View Post
    Thank you for that interesting info.. Would have liked to seen that full stock one. Ed
    Been trying to track it down for years. IIRC the guy who grabbed it is local in the Sac area so it may show up. Always thought it might be a presentation or experimental piece as it was the nicest in the lot I saw. Appeared to me to be exactly like the 09 arg carbine w/bayonet attachments as they tried a brazilian bayo on it before it disapeared into store. Seems like all the good stuff disappeared We were in the backyard surrounded by pallets of rifles and cases of bayonets. One crate held johnsons. The Armory is gone now so no hope there

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    I have one in the white.
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    Thank you for sharing with us.
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    I just found this thread because of some research that I am doing for the 1908 Brazilian Mauser original short rifle that I picked up yesterday. When I get home from work today I will add the information you are requesting as well as pictures of the rifle.

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    I looked at my 1908 Brazilian short rifle today and found the following information. The left side of the receiver is marked B 1138 and a B inside a circle. Below this are the letters Aa. Also it says Deutsche Waffen - UND Munitionsbafriken Berlin. The bolt isn't marked with a number, and the stock number is 3506. The left side of the barrel (2" from the muzzle) is marked 663-15. There is a very faint mark on the stock - all I can see is a circle, can't make anything else out. The mag/trigger guard is marked 1138. It has 1400 meter sights on it, and the front band is a short rifle band. The bore is fairly good. Over all I would say the rifle is in 70-80% condition.

    Now based the information I have provided, what is the value of this rifle? I made a trade for this rifle, and I wonder if I made a good deal. Thank you for your assistance.
    Last edited by harleywrench; 04-02-2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Left out a few details

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    hi vintovka... i also bought my 1908 mauser at the Old Sacramento Armory. mine was purchased in 1984 or 1985. im having problems finding ammo for it and cant remember the caliber. ive tried the standard 7.92x57 but it wont quite chamber for me... (the bolt wont go forward far enough) do you have any ideas of what calibers they may have used on the brazillians??? also, every post ive read says the sights go up to 14. mine goes to 20

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    Memmans, I think the Brazilian 08/34 rifles have sights that are graduated to "20". I believe they are Czech made and some if not most are in 7X57 a.k.a. 7mm Mauser caliber.
    Quote Originally Posted by memmans View Post
    hi vintovka... i also bought my 1908 mauser at the Old Sacramento Armory. mine was purchased in 1984 or 1985. im having problems finding ammo for it and cant remember the caliber. ive tried the standard 7.92x57 but it wont quite chamber for me... (the bolt wont go forward far enough) do you have any ideas of what calibers they may have used on the brazillians??? also, every post ive read says the sights go up to 14. mine goes to 20
    Last edited by trackcar; 11-23-2013 at 10:38 PM.

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    Memmans, your Mauser sounds much like mine. I have a Brazilian that is marked "Mod. 34/08.30" to the right of the Brazilian crest. The left of the receiver is stamped "Fabrica de Itajuba - Brazil". Like yours, the front sight is graduated to 20.

    It is chambered in 30-06, oddly enough. This is stamped on the barrel beneath the handguard.

    An article I read on it years ago explained that this model was a contract Mauser that was manufactured in Germany (no idea at which plant) and assembled in Itajuba, Brazil. This was around 1934. The 30-06 caliber was somehow related to Brazil's involvement as an ally in WWI. Perhaps we gave them tons of the rounds as aid for helping our cause and they contracted for a rifle to fire them? That was the gist of the article. Not sure how accurate that info is.

    The rifle shoots just fine. Serial #s on mine don't match and the guy I bought it from had a couple of crates of them packed in cosmoline. Many had threads on the exterior of the barrel, between the front sight and the muzzle, but mine does not. The bore is very good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WireDog View Post
    Memmans, your Mauser sounds much like mine. I have a Brazilian that is marked "Mod. 34/08.30" to the right of the Brazilian crest. The left of the receiver is stamped "Fabrica de Itajuba - Brazil". Like yours, the front sight is graduated to 20.

    It is chambered in 30-06, oddly enough. This is stamped on the barrel beneath the handguard.

    An article I read on it years ago explained that this model was a contract Mauser that was manufactured in Germany (no idea at which plant) and assembled in Itajuba, Brazil. This was around 1934. The 30-06 caliber was somehow related to Brazil's involvement as an ally in WWI. Perhaps we gave them tons of the rounds as aid for helping our cause and they contracted for a rifle to fire them? That was the gist of the article. Not sure how accurate that info is.

    The rifle shoots just fine. Serial #s on mine don't match and the guy I bought it from had a couple of crates of them packed in cosmoline. Many had threads on the exterior of the barrel, between the front sight and the muzzle, but mine does not. The bore is very good.
    I just stumbled across this bit of misinformation and thought I would correct it.

    The M08/34 .30 short rifle was a rifle rebuilt post WWII in Itajuba using old M1908 and M1934/08 receivers. It was .30-06.

    The M1908 long rifle was made in Germany pre WWI. It was 7X57. Some M1908 short rifles were made at the same time with a sight that only went to 14.

    The M1908/34 short rifle was made in Czechoslovakia. 100,500 were made in 1937. It was 7X57 and was the same (except for short bayonet lug) as the 5,600 VZ12/33 sold to El Salvador in 1937.

    There were also M1908 long rifles shortened to short rifle length by Brazil that were called M1908/34.

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    Here an idea about the Brasilian 1908 Serial no's.

    The Serial # usually consits of:
    1st line: (Greek) Beta + (4-digit) Serial-No. + B in Circle (the Beta is a proof mark. The B in circle is kind of model designation-i don't know exactly)
    2nd line: nothing (earliest examples) OR 1 letter a-z OR 2 letters Aa-Zz (one letter Upper case, same letter Lower case; latest known sample to me: Ss)
    For the second line, all letters are used, incl. o and q (i've observed o and Qq myself. About the 'i', i don't know.)

    Manufacturer marking: the rifles were manufactured at DWM, Berlin (majority), and Mauser, Oberndorf (minority)
    Stock marking: kind of Rose (DWM, early); Star of David (DWM, late); B in circle in a Flag (Mauser, late)
    Length: according to Robert Ball, this rifle was manufactured in rifle length (29'') and short length (22'', with bolt handle bent down). I myself have only observed the full length up to now. So, the shorth length might be quite rare.

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    Default an Update on Brazil 1908 serial no's

    Long rifles:
    The Serial # usually consits of:
    1st line: (Greek) Beta + (4-digit) Serial-No. + B in Circle (the Beta is a proof mark. The B in circle is kind of model designation)
    2nd line: nothing (earliest examples) OR 1 letter a-z OR 2 letters Aa-Zz (one letter Upper case, same letter Lower case)
    For the second line, all letters are used, except 'i' (i've observed o and Qq myself).

    The first big batch of these rifles were made at DWM, Berlin. These rifles had series # in the one-letter (a-z) or no-letter range.
    The second batch 1913 (200 000 rifles) was divided between DWM and Mauser, Oberndorf: DWM made the 1st 100000 rifles (series # Aa - Kk), Mauser made the second 100000 ones (series # Ll - Uu). The 'Ii' wasn't used.
    source: John's document in http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...el-1935-Mauser post #6,7

    Stock marking: kind of Rose (DWM, early); Star of David (DWM, late); B in circle in a Flag (Mauser, late). The stock got it's series # behind the rear sling swivel (only no., no letters).

    Short rifles:
    the short rifles most probably got their own series #, independent from the long rifles (this was custom practice at DWM, and also used for the Argys):
    1st line: (Greek) Beta + (4-digit) Serial-No. + B in Circle (same as for long rifle)
    2nd line: They started again at 'no' letter, and then used letters a, b ... Latest known sample to me: 'b' (so only a few 10000 were made)
    All of them were made at Berlin.

    Chris

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    Chris,thank you Sir for your input.
    mauserdad
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    @ mauserdad:
    i had a complete reading of this thread, and i'm not sure, what are the correct serial # of the Brasil 1908 short rifles. The serial codes 'h' (post# 20) and 'y' (post# 8), i don't understand.
    Here in Germany, i've seen on online auctions Brazil short rifles occur in series range none, 'a', and 'b'. Since bubba'ed jobs are very rare in Germany (due to our restrictive gun laws, nobody is interested in cheap rifles), i'd assume that this is quite representative for what was really manufactured. And the latest serial # i remember here in Germany, was a 'b'.
    At least the 'y' i don't believe to be an original short rifle. This would mean, that at least 240,000 short rifles have been made. If this would be, they wouldn't be that rare.

    The serial # range Aa - Uu was definitely made as Long rifle (see John's document). All short rifles in this # range are later conversions.

    Chris

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    Chris, thank you for your input. In my first post Doc AV gave some good info. The only point that I might disagree with you is that you said Aa-Uu were all originally long rifles. I have seen conversions and they usually retain the long rifle rear sight. Mine is a Qq serial number and in every way including the rear sight is identical to other original short rifles. It appears by the few double lettered serial numbers we have received there might have been short runs of the short rifle. More original serial numbers with type of rear sight will help. Again thanks. Ed
    Last edited by mauserdad; 10-28-2014 at 10:59 AM.
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    Ed, i had a look at the old thread which was linked in your first post.
    Unfortunately, it looks like the rear sight which John Wall showed in post # 10, is different from your rear sight: the font of the numbers is different. This is especially visible in numbers '3' and '7'. Also, the long rifles use the same fonts as in John's picture (and 1908 Uruguay, and 1912 Chile as well).

    Here a pic of the rear sight of an Brazil 1909 short rifle from an online auction (serial # 86xx b, made by DWM Berlin). This uses again the same font as in John's pic (sorry for the bad quality)
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Your rear sight has a different font (it's the same as on the 'y' rifle in post # 8). For me, this doesn't look like the original configuration, it's a later conversion. Would it be possible, that some long rifles were re-worked in a (Brazil) arsenal and reconfigured to short rifles?

    Please check if your rear sight or the slider has any pre-WW1 Brazil proof marks (greek letters, like the beta in John's pic). If it's there, this might be a proof that this rear sight is the original configuration. And please check the barrel serial # (left side, under the handguard), if it might have been rebarreled.

    Sorry for the bad news, Chris

    edit: the fonts of your rear sight looks similar to my post-WW II FN rifle for Belgian Congo. Especially the '3' is significant.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by bagiman; 10-28-2014 at 08:29 PM.

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    Chris, not bad news. You might be on to something here. No Greek letter on the sight and no number on the barrel. I don't get to disappointed after 40+ years of collecting. If any anything these postings have helped other collectors. If, like it is possible that this is a conversion it would be interesting to know by who, when and how many. There seems to be two types of conversions, the one like mine which mimics the original in sights, handguard and bands and those which maintained the long rifle rear sight. Again thanks for your input. Ed
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    Ed, please have a look at my 'edit'. This indicates the conversion somewhen after WW2 (50's ?). Maybe the experts can evaluate this (i'm not an expert in latter Mausers).
    Due to the high quality of work, i would say this was arsenal work. Also the barrel is different (not only length): there's a change in diameter just above the upper band, which the long rifle didn't have at this position, but is usual for carbines. Somebody made really big effort to get a 1st class carbine.
    BTW: my Brazil 1935 carbine (Mauser Oberndorf) also has these features. The rear sight looks exactly the same as in John's pic, only the 'beta' is missing.
    Chris

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    Chris, I am leaning toward a possible earlier date than post war for this reason. Right after WW2 the 30.06 cartridge was becoming popular in some South American countries. Examples of this is the Brazilian 08/34.30 as shown in MMRW and the Brazilian M954 which both were in cal. 30.06. Mine is still in caliber 7mm. Also these conversions to the 30.06 have different right side receiver markings. Mine still has MOD1908. By the way mine does have the barrel step just in front of the front band. Just food for thought. Ed
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    Brazilian M1908 Short Rifle, 7X57

    Made in 1913 by DMW at Waffenfabrik Mauser Orberndorf in Germany for Brazil, this was one of the last ones made by the Oo serial number suffix. The last known is suffix Ss. Whether it was originally manufactured as a long rifle or a short rifle is unknown. To all appearances this rifle was originally made as a short rifle but that may not be the case. M1908 long rifles are common but short rifles are rarely seen.

    The barrel was replaced with a new one having no serial number. It has FCSAP R-5 marked on the chamber and 33-15 near the muzzle. Unlike some short rifle conversions which retain the long rifle rear sight, this example has the 1,400 meter short rifle rear sight. The sight is marked with the Brazilian B.

    This example with serial number 6794 Oo has a matching receiver, trigger guard, and floorplate. The Brazilian marked bolt body and the stock do not match and no other parts are numbered. It is not import marked.

    The rifle was purchased from an online auction; it came with the cleaning rod and correct bayonet/scabbard. I added the reproduction frog and the original sling with hardware from a Chilean M1912.

    So far this thread has seen the following M1908 short rifle serial number suffixes:

    no suffix
    a
    b
    h
    l
    y
    Aa
    Ll
    Oo (mine)
    Qq
    Rr
    Ss

    It would be interesting to know if a no suffix short rifle rear sight is serial number marked. Mine is not. Also if the stock and handguard are numbered internally. Mine are not.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Brazilian M1908 SR 1.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 2.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 3.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 4.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 5.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 6.JPG  

    Brazilian M1908 SR 7.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 8.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 9.JPG  
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

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    more photos
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Brazilian M1908 SR 10.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 11.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 12.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 13.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 14.JPG   Brazilian M1908 SR 15.JPG  

    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

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    Bill, thanks for your input on this. Ed
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    Since I am subscribed to this thread, I received a copy of a post from 7X57. That post does not appear in this thread which suggests to me that he may have deleted it for further editing. On the off chance there was some glitch and the post was lost forever, I am posting it, slightly edited to replace the word prefix with suffix and replace upper case letters with lower case. If 7X57 should repost his post, I will delete this one.


    ---Quote (Originally by Sgt Dun)---
    Attachment 437544 (http://forums.gunboards.com/attachme...544)Attachment 437545 (http://forums.gunboards.com/attachme...545)Attachment 437546 (http://forums.gunboards.com/attachme...d=437546)Sorry, I've taken so long to get the pictures of the what I think is the "y", I've been working out of town. I also noticed that the same mark is on the bolt. It resembles a cursive "y". I think you can see it in the attached photos.
    ---End Quote---

    Post by 7X57:

    At first glance it may look like a cursive "y", but much more likely it is a cursive "g". Since my acquisition of a (long) Brazilian M1908 a few weeks ago I'm researching suffixes of the serial numbers.

    Thanks to an original Mauser document I received via John Wall for my Brazilian Mauser 1935 survey thread (see here, entries #6 and #7 for the document and its English translation: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...t=small+survey) it is clear how the suffixes of the second production batch (from April 1913 on) of Brazilian M1908s were assigned:

    Aa, Bb, Cc, Dd, Ee, Ff, Gg, Hh, Ii, Kk for rifles produced by DWM at Berlin (Jj wasn't assigned due to its similarity with Ii)

    Ll, Mm, Nn, Oo, Pp, Qq, Rr, Ss, Tt, Uu for rifles produced by Mauser at Oberndorf

    Each suffix denoted a batch of 10,000 rifles, so the whole second order covered 200,000 rifles.

    Also mentioned in that document is, that this 10,000-rifle batches for each suffix letter had already been practice with the first production batch, which used single suffix letters (in this case stamped as lower case, cursive letters on rifles and bayonets).

    Based on logical considerations and observed serial numbers it is very reasonable to assume that this first batch didn't start with serial nos. suffixed by "a", but with an un-suffixed 10,000-rifle batch.

    The "highest" suffix letter I observed so far with this first order is "o". My own rifle is suffixed "5174n" and came with an original test target dated June 25th, 1912. If "o" is indeed the last production batch within the first order, this would mean that this order covered 150,000 rifles (suffixes a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, k, l, m, n, o plus the first, un-suffixed batch with 10,000 rifles each). If the first order would have been also for 200,000 rifles, the suffixes used would have ended with letter "t". So a letter "y" is extremely unlikely as a suffix. Additionally, the documented beginning of the second order in spring 1913 and the also documented production time of the "n" batch of the first order in mid-summer 1912 make it rather unlikely that the first production run may have covered more than 150,000, at best 200,000 rifles - another argument that "y" was never used here (otherwise there would have been a total production of 250,000 rifles to the first order). Regrettably no exact production figures for that first Brazilian M1908 run seem to have survived, however, so we have to rely on assumptions only.

    The data collected in this thread show no "pattern" of short rifle production within the entire production run - in contrast to the later M1935 model, where the short rifles can be pinned down to a well defined serial no. range.

    Notes by geladen: A careful study of two different German lower case cursive letter charts shows that Sgt, Dun's rifle is suffix g, not y.

    Part of the problem of finding a short rifle pattern is that some of the reported short rifles may have been long rifle conversions with short rifle sights added.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

    Regards,
    Bill


    III, GOA Life





  42. #41

    Default

    Here is mine. I doesn't have many marks. What is the weird McDonalds "M" looking mark?

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    I think I have another, I'll try to dig it out.

  43. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    1,647

    Default

    Thank you for your input. Mine also has the "M" markings. I can only assume they are a Brazilian acceptance/proof mark.
    mauserdad
    John 3:16 & 17 KJAV 1611
    NRA Life Member

  44. #43

    Default

    Hi--don't know if this will help. I have one, S.N. B5336. The bolt is bent, flat and checkered on the bottom of the knob, but numbered 12845. Barrel measures 21 3/4". Mfg. by DWM. That's all I can presently tell you, as it's in storage.

  45. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Southern Germany and Thailand
    Posts
    1,189

    Default

    According to the newest documents now available (see here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...Rifle-How-many) it seems that just 10,000 M1908 short rifles were produced under the first production batch of 200,000 by DWM Berlin in 1908 (plus a mere 100 by Mauser Oberndorf in 1909).

    This also narrows down a little bit the possible prefix letter range. Since these short rifles have been ordered as part of the very first order, placed in 1908, it is reasonable to assume that they should have been produced as part of the first 100,000 rifles (the second batch of 100,000 was ordered only in 1911), thus covering the following (first 10) sub-batches of 10,000 rifles each:
    - no prefix
    - prefix letters "a", "b", "c", "d", "e", "f", "g", "h" and "i"

    This assumption is for the most part supported by the observed serial numbers mentioned in some of the previous posts. The only prefix letter falling out of this range is a letter "l", but since these prefixes are written as lower-case cursive letters, they are often difficult to identify correctly, so this "l" might well be a "b", which looks quite similar.

    In contrast to the Brazilian M1935 short rifles, where the entire production falls into one serial number block (1000-1999), production of the M1908 short rifles seems to have been distributed between a number of sub-batches - maybe equally divided between all ten of the sub-batches mentioned above...

    All Brazilian M1908 short rifles with two-letter prefixes are factory or arsenal rebuilds made by using parts from later, Mauser-built rifles.
    Last edited by 7x57; 10-22-2015 at 02:41 AM.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  46. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    5,603

    Default

    I have long rifle 6578 Uu. I'll keep it out for anymore info thats needed.
    "Don't rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that bore him is in heat again." -Bertolt Brecht

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