Brazilian Original Mod 1908 Short Rifle Research Request - Page 2
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Thread: Brazilian Original Mod 1908 Short Rifle Research Request

  1. #46
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  2. #47
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    Does this one fit into what is discussed here? S/N 9103 with a 'c' below it?

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  3. #48

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    Below are some photos of a 1908 SR for sale in Brazil. The finish is original. I hope it helps.



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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagner.msouza View Post
    Below are some photos of a 1908 SR for sale in Brazil. The finish is original. I hope it helps.
    Thanks a lot for these pictures! These might be the first pictures of an original, unaltered 1908 SR we have here in this forum.

    Would it be possible, that you ask the seller for some details:
    - please a pic of the rear sight: does it have a 'beta' inspection mark, and is it No. matching ?
    - what is the letter suffix after the serial# ? (this is an early make due to details of the receiver crest, so a, b, c... would be possible)
    - is the stock # matching ? (on the underside of the butt, behind the 'pistol grip')
    - does the bolt have any serial# left ? (nothing visible on pic)

    Since most 1908 SR are in fact shortened Long Rifles, we have to look for details to find an original SR. Matching serial# is an important proof. Other indications are type of stock (e.g. the 2 rifles in the posts above have Czech 1908/34 stocks), and details of rear sight.
    --> 1908 SR in original conditions are extremely rare. The one you've shown might be a candidate.

    Chris

  6. #50

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    Bagiman,
    Ok, I asked. When the seller has the answer I post here!

    have a nice day!

  7. #51
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    thanks alot for your effort! From my impression, this might be one of the very rare original M1908 SR, so some investigation effort is worth it!

    Hopefully, we get details of an unaltered M1908 SR,
    Chris

  8. #52

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    The seller (my friend) told me a few more pictures of the rifle. The gun had been sold 1 year ago, unfortunately the previous owner does not have more information on it. Only remaining photos I send below.



    I hope contribute!


    .
    I will continue search for more details of this model to contribute to the discussion!

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  9. #53
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    Happened on this thread while looking for a bit of information on a barreled action in my possession.

    Rifle had already been sporterized and put in a Fajen or Bishop stock. Did some Googling and from the barrel length, it appears it had been an original short rifle.

    If it is helpful, the s/n is 8795s. The 's' is in cursive font, so possibly another letter.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
    According to the newest documents now available (see here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...Rifle-How-many) it seems that just 10,000 M1908 short rifles were produced under the first production batch of 200,000 by DWM Berlin in 1908 (plus a mere 100 by Mauser Oberndorf in 1909).

    This also narrows down a little bit the possible prefix letter range. Since these short rifles have been ordered as part of the very first order, placed in 1908, it is reasonable to assume that they should have been produced as part of the first 100,000 rifles (the second batch of 100,000 was ordered only in 1911), thus covering the following (first 10) sub-batches of 10,000 rifles each:
    - no prefix
    - prefix letters "a", "b", "c", "d", "e", "f", "g", "h" and "i"

    This assumption is for the most part supported by the observed serial numbers mentioned in some of the previous posts. The only prefix letter falling out of this range is a letter "l", but since these prefixes are written as lower-case cursive letters, they are often difficult to identify correctly, so this "l" might well be a "b", which looks quite similar.

    In contrast to the Brazilian M1935 short rifles, where the entire production falls into one serial number block (1000-1999), production of the M1908 short rifles seems to have been distributed between a number of sub-batches - maybe equally divided between all ten of the sub-batches mentioned above...

    All Brazilian M1908 short rifles with two-letter prefixes are factory or arsenal rebuilds made by using parts from later, Mauser-built rifles.
    So what were the s/n suffixes of the 100 short rifles made by Orberndorf?
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

    Regards,
    Bill


    All my Mausers are here (Index is in post #1):
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers

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  11. #55
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    Sorry, Bill, but except that one, mentioned document stating that Oberndorf made 100 "carbines" for Brazil in 1909 there's no more information available to me so far. Also not unlikely that these rifles even had a different designation than M1908...
    However, there exists a document (letter from DWM Berlin to Mauser Oberndorf - also posted in one of the "sticky" threads here) which clearly states that two-letter prefixes were introduced only with the second Brazilian 200,000-rifle order, production of which started in the second half of 1912. So rifles made already in 1909 are most unlikely to have a two-letter prefix (if there was a prefix at all).
    But of course it can't be ruled out that these 100 short rifles had not only a different model no., but also their own s/no. range, independent from the standard M1908 s/nos.
    Last edited by 7x57; 01-16-2017 at 12:29 AM.
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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7x57 View Post
    Sorry, Bill, but except that one, mentioned document stating that Oberndorf made 100 "carbines" for Brazil in 1909 there's no more information available to me so far. Also not unlikely that these rifles even had a different designation than M1908...
    However, there exists a document (letter from DWM Berlin to Mauser Oberndorf - also posted in one of the "sticky" threads here) which clearly states that two-letter prefixes were introduced only with the second Brazilian 200,000-rifle order, production of which started in the second half of 1912. So rifles made already in 1909 are most unlikely to have a two-letter prefix (if there was a prefix at all).
    But of course it can't be ruled out that these 100 short rifles had not only a different model no., but also their own s/no. range, independent from the standard M1908 s/nos.
    Hi Thomas, on rethinking the matter, I agree with you. My (now) short rifle was made by WFM in 1913, so it could not have been part of the "carbines" made by WFM in 1909. So, my Oo example was made as a long rifle and later cut down by Brazil including a new 1400m sight.

    Just because the 10,000 "carbines" made by DWM in 1908 were in fact M1908 short rifles does not mean the 100 "carbines" made by WFM in 1909 were the same model. Actually, the very small quantity suggests they were something different - like cavalry carbines. And whether the 100 were short rifles or true carbines, they almost certainly would have their own 1-100 s/n group.

    On a somewhat different subject, I find it interesting that the last document* you translated shows 100,000 Brazilian M1908 long rifles made in 1913 added - but does not show the Mexican and Colombian M1912 rifles made by Steyr.

    *post 15 at:
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-amp-John-Wall
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

    Regards,
    Bill


    All my Mausers are here (Index is in post #1):
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers

    III, GOA Life





  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    On a somewhat different subject, I find it interesting that the last document* you translated shows 100,000 Brazilian M1908 long rifles made in 1913 added - but does not show the Mexican and Colombian M1912 rifles made by Steyr.

    *post 15 at:
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...-amp-John-Wall
    As you can see from the scan of the original document, these 100,000 Brazilian rifles are one of two hand-written pencil addenda - I don't know who did this (maybe Jon Speed, who furnished the document), I only translated the document as it was.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  14. #58
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    Bill,
    the Mexican and Columbian M1912 rifles are shown on a list from Heino Hintermeier, which was published here in the Mannlicher forum (fiscal year 1912/13 and 1913/14):
    Attachment 1888337
    interestingly also some Steyr made M1912 for Brazil and USA - will they somewhen occur?

    The documents Thomas refers to only contain Mauser Oberndorf and (partly) DWM Berlin makes. These will give no information about Steyr makes.

    hope this is helpful, Chris

  15. #59

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    Here, in Brazil, I saw some pics of a Steyr 1912. It is like a 1908 rifle. I think is a small order of any State Police. I need of more sources about it.

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagiman View Post
    Bill,
    the Mexican and Columbian M1912 rifles are shown on a list from Heino Hintermeier, which was published here in the Mannlicher forum (fiscal year 1912/13 and 1913/14):
    Attachment 1888337
    interestingly also some Steyr made M1912 for Brazil and USA - will they somewhen occur?

    The documents Thomas refers to only contain Mauser Oberndorf and (partly) DWM Berlin makes. These will give no information about Steyr makes.

    hope this is helpful, Chris
    Chris, your attachment is not working. Post #59 is looking for Brazilian M1912 rifles.
    Every post I make is made with a request for corrections. I'm here to learn.

    Regards,
    Bill


    All my Mausers are here (Index is in post #1):
    http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?144316-Mausers-Only-Mausers

    III, GOA Life





  17. #61
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    sorry, try to post the list again:
    Attachment 1889538
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    --> 2050 Steyr M1912 for Brazil in 1912/13
    --> 700 Steyr M1912 for USA in 1913/14 (don't know if these were delivered or used by Austria in WW1)
    I'm not sure if the list is complete: the 20000+ M95 spare parts for Chile (about 1910) are not mentioned here.

    Chris

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