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Thread: 7,5 Swiss Ordance Revolver ammo in 7,5 Swedish Nagant -- same velocity?

  1. #1
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    Default 7,5 Swiss Ordance Revolver ammo in 7,5 Swedish Nagant -- same velocity?

    Hej vänner!!

    Fiocchi makes ammo for 7,5 Swiss Ordance Revolver, 107 grain FMJ bullet at claimed 1050 fps and 262 ftlbs. I know from another thread on this board(foudufoot 28 nov 2007) that 7,5 Swiss and 7,5 Nagant cartridges cartridges are interchangable.

    What I do not know is whether or not the Fiocchi-stated muzzle velocity for use in Swiss revolver hold for Swedish-made ones. Has anyone fired the Fiocchi 7,5 Swiss Ordance Revolver ammo in both revolvers AND did chrono measurements? What are results?

    I do know that when some of us tried to replicate original muzzle velocities in Swedish 7,5 Nagant, we could not do it with any nitro powder, nor did Norma succeed either. Faster burning powders worked best - and Norma had to use their fastest-burning nitro powder to even get a 75% of original muzzle velocities!! However, replicating original BP velocities was easy with modern BPs. Apparent reason for this surprising result is the freebore and large barrel-cylinder gap in Swedish design, making it best BP revolver I have ever used, as regards number of rounds that can be fired and full function and accuracy maintained.

    Thanks,
    Niklas
    Last edited by NiklasP; 07-09-2011 at 12:36 PM.

  2. #2
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    and these Nagant Bros. designed revolvers are functionally nearly identical
    The Revolver 1865-1888 by Taylorson: page 59:

    In 1882, another Schmidt solid-frame rod-ejecting revolver was adopted by the Swiss...... The revolver had a lock of improved Nagant type (see Plate 25) ingeniously modified, d'apres Abadie, to permit faster loading and unloading. Opening the loading-gate disconnected the hammer from the lock, and the cylinder could then be rapidly revolved by simply pulling the trigger.
    Functionally dissimilar and not designed by Gebrüders Nagant.

    Excellent series of books, by the way. The Revolver 1889-1914 is the 3rd volume. First volume covers prior to 1865.

    Also of considerable interest to European pistol and revolver researchers is The Handgun by Geoffrey Boothroyd published in 1970 and can be found on ebay sometimes very reasonably priced.

    The System Chamelot-Delvigne was modifed by Major Rudolf Schmidt and adopted by Switzerland as the Model 1873 in 10.4mm rimfire. This was followed by the Model 1878 10.4mm center-fire revolver, and the earlier rim-fire weapons were converted to center-fire. The Model 1878 employed a lock mechanism similar to that in Galand's Patent No. 2308 of 1872 (page 266) and, because of this as yet unsubstantiated connection, some authorities refer to the Model 1878 Swiss revolver as the Schmidt-Delvigne. The Swiss retained rod ejection in the last of their military revolvers, the Model 1882, in which the caliber was reduced to 7.5 mm. Black powder was used for early cartridges, but smokeless powder was later adopted and, from the first, metal-clad bullets were employed. Commercial ammunition was made with lead bullets and gallery round ball, and both shot and blank versions were produced. The cartridge is not normally encountered outside the country of origin, neither is the revolver.

    The lock mechanism of the Model 1882 Schmidt was similar to the Nagant, but incorporated a very ingenious modification by Abadie, of which unfortunately little is known. The Adabie modification would only operate when applied to lockwork which employed a hammer strut, but it was of particular value when applied to solid frame rod ejector type revolvers.........

  3. #3
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    Thanks of lots of information that does not answer simple question, Dutchman.

  4. #4
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    Your welcome.


    Dutch

  5. #5
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    Underlying reason for my inquiry is that I would like to have loads for my Swedish 7,5 Nagant that have ballistic performance similar to that listed by Fiocchi for their 7,5 Swiss Ordnance Revolver loading. I have strong enough doubts that this ammo will deliver anything like same performance in Swedish Nagant, that I am greatly reluctant to pay the high price for such factory ammo. If some one has actual chrono results, I might change my assessment.

    Currently, BP loads using Speer 95 grain, 0,314 HBWC in 32-20 cases give 800+/- less than 10 FPS and nice small, consistent groups at 25 meters -- really nice target load. Hollow base of these soft lead bullets expands to 0,320 of bore.

    Thanks,
    Niklas

  6. #6
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    Niklas,
    I took my Swede Nagant out yesterday and chronographed Fiocchi 7.5 Swiss ammo. My revolver in made by Husqvarna with serial # 686-. The ammo is maybe 15 years old but kept in the house. It has a lot # (?) inside a flap of 1501002. Over my Pact Model 1 XP at 9 yards in front of the muzzle I got an average of 857fps with a high of 882fps and a low of 831fps. Somewhere I have a copy of Fiocchi loads with bullet weights and velocities but am unable to find it. Your 1050 fps seems high.
    Tom

  7. #7
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    Thanks Noskaj/Tom!

    I was beginning to wonder if more than a few posters here ever fired their 1887 Husqvarna Nagant revolvers, with any kind of ammo.

    I took that 1050 fps from what purported to be a Fiocchi data page, linked to a several years old online ammo seller's website. I have not been able to find such data anywhere else for Fiocchi 7,5 Swiss Ordnance Revolver ammo. I can find no information at all about 7,5 Swiss Ordnance Revolver ammo in 2011 in Fiocchi USA online catalog. In 2010 Fiocchi catalog they only say "Due to nature of this product, ballistics are not available (Obsolete cartridge for "Antique" firearms.), even though they also show 960 fps for muzzle velocity for 107 grain FMJ bullet.

    I agree that your chrono data are more reasonable than what I referenced in first post, at least for an actual revolver. Assuming the 1050 fps I reference is accurate for cartridge stated, I would suspect it is for a test barrel, with no venting to simulate revolver cylinder-barrel gap, perhaps much longer than 4,5 inche barrel of 1887 revolver. Same suspection for 960 fps. Do you know of any chrono data for this ammo in Swiss 1882 Ordnance Revolver?

    I can likely replicate the velocities you measured for Fiocchi 107 grain 7,5 Swiss bullets in my 1887 Swedish Nagant by substituting a lighter cast lead bullet for the 118 grain bullets I use in my heaviest BP loads, which average about 770 fps. I stopped at 800 fps with 95 grain, 0,314 HBWC because Speer does not recommend their use at higher velocities. Hornady does make a 0,314, 90 grain SWC bullet that I have not tried.

    My interest in 7,5 Swiss Ordnance Revolver ammo was reignited recently when I got new Master Catalog --2011 from Graf & Sons (www.grafs.com) and found 7,5mm Swiss Ordnance ammo listed, product number FC75SO. However, checking that product number via Graf & Sons website gets "out of stock" message but no ballistic information. Based on your chrono results, I will keep eyes open for a box or two of such ammo.

    Thanks again!!
    Niklas
    Last edited by NiklasP; 07-13-2011 at 02:37 PM.

  8. #8
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    Niklas,
    I bought my ammo many years ago at a gun show. Somebody bought up dealer stock and was selling it real cheap. I got the Swiss, 8mm Roth Steyr, 8mm Rast Gasser and 10.4 Italian. I quickly learned that Fiocchi brass, while good, is rather thin. I use .32-20 cut down for the Swede and .32 H&R mag BRASS for the Rast Gasser. Those cases last forever! Jacob Brandt in his "Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges" gives 725 fps with a 101-107 gr bullet for the Swiss/Swede round. Edward Ezel in his "Handguns of the world" gives 706 fps for a 105 gr bullet. I handload for mine and I use primarily altered .32-20 brass. I use a Rapine mould (# 319125) and shoot wheel weight lead. It comes out 123 gr @ .321". I use 4.8 gr of 2400 and get about 656 fps. With 5.0 gr of 2400 I get about 719 fps but my revolver groups better with 4.8 gr. Empty 12 oz beverage containers are no match for the Swede at 25 yards. Up against a human I look furiously for a white handkerchief! I've read recently in Handloader/Rifle magazine in an article by Mike Venturino that Rapine has gone out of business. The last catalog I have from them has a telephone # of 215-679-5413. In their catalog they list this bullet for the .32-40. NEI does not list anything like it.
    Tom

  9. #9
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    Tom,

    Thanks for additional information!

    For sake of sheer simplicity, I have been full-length resizing unaltered 32-20 brass and then seating bullets just deep enough to be a mm or two below face of cylinder. This does cause extra working of 32-20 brass, which expands to shape of 7,5 Nagant chambers, but, with Starline brass none have split yet. This has additional simplicity of allowing normal 0,314-0,315 bullets to be used with 32-20 loading dies. It has disadvantage that I have to use pure lead HBWC bullets and rely on the soft sides of HB to expand, giving gas seal and good fit to rifling. Works really well with Hodgdon's 777 FFg, giving very consistant velocities and small groups (clay birds at 20-30 meters or so get broken every time I do my part).

    With the slightly oversize 118 grain 32-20 bullets (0,315) I have to use two 0,060 X 0,320 fiber wads twixt powder and bullet to get adequate gas sealing. These loads do not group as small as the HBWC loads, perhaps because bullets do not fit rifling as snugly.

    Some day I may try paper patching the 118 grain, 0.315 32-20 bullets, or maybe the 90 grain Hornady SWC 0,314 bullets, and loading them in full-length 32-20 brass that has been fire-formed in 7,5 Nagant chambers. Kinda a cross of 7,5 Nagant and 7,62 Nagant.

    I did try something similar to your use of 32-40 123 grain bullets. I had some 165 grain, soft lead 0,321 bullets that I cut just behind one of lube-groove divider bands, giving me bullets (front part of original bullet) weighing 120-125 grains. I loaded some in shortened 32-20 brass and got consistent velocities in the mid 700 fps with 777 FFg and nice groups. Sounds like I should look for a mould like yours.

    I also did some initial testing with some 120 grain, Cu-plated 0,320 bullets and 2400 powder in shortened 32-20 brass. Bad initial results and never did a second attempt, thanks to the 95 grain 0,314 HBWC and 0,315 118 grain loads with 777 FFg working so well. I need to go back and try these bullets with 777 FFg.

    I used my 1887 revolver in a few action pistol matches with the 118 grain loads and never missed a shot or failed to take down a knock-down target (set for 158 grain, 38 Spl 750 fps loads). The slow reload killed my scores, of course, but not my satisfaction. It is an excellent "point-and-shoot" revolver for me.

    I did have a good gunsmith lighten the rather heavy military springs and this revolver now has the nicest DA trigger pull I have ever used. I do use Federal SPM primers with it now, to assure 100% ignition.

    Great to hear from some one else successfully loading 7,5 Swedish Nagant ammo and enjoying these well-made and accurate revolvers!!

    Niklas

  10. #10
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    Niklas,
    My local gunsmith told me about using full length .32-20 brass. I already had cases trimmed and a good load so I let it be. Interesting to hear that you used your Swede in action pistol matches. What fun!!!! In the early 1990s I used my Rast Gasser in IHMSA shoots. What a kick to beat folks shooting "modern" revolvers. During this same era I used a Remington Rolling Block in 8mm Lebel and a Guedes single shot in 8mm Guedes in turkey shoots. Took home a few turkeys over the years. Really aggravated people shooting open sighted modern hunting rifles. Can't take life too seriously!!
    Tom

  11. #11
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    Here is a little bit of BS on my first bunch of BP reloads for my sweet little Antique Husqvarna 1887. I have been following your threads and all the wonderful info on here for some time, Niklas and you guys . I decided to use FFFG and full length 32-20 cases sized in the 30 carbine dies. The crimp die for 30 carbine then works perfect. The bullets are 32-20 sized to .309, After sizing they weighed avg. 110 grains. I loaded them inverted ahead of a weighed charge of 13.2 grains of FFFG, used CCI mag small pistol primers and crimped bullets in the bottom groove. This just gave me slight compression of the powder. and fit the cylinder perfectly. , cases ejected great, and no big amount of case blackening, nice fire forming. , also I was surprised there did not seem to be that much cylinder flash. It was pleasant to shoot, lots of smoke, a little kick, no leading on the 20 or so rounds I shot. Accuracy wasn't the best but that could be me. I don't care, it was just so much fun to shoot a old gun that probably has not been fired since 1897 or so. A burglersaurus would be safe if he dodged a little bit I also enjoyed the fact that I could go out on my own quarter section and shoot, Yes I put it in a pistol case but did not have to go directly from home to range etc and all the other rules. ( Oh by the way this is Canada eh! ) and took it to my shop for afternoon to clean etc. I will try some other loads in my trimmed cases but for now was great fun. I am going to have to find some HBWC to try for a little better groups or learn how to shoot. Here are some pics. Thanks for reading my BS. and please comment. Cheers John
    Last edited by Husky Jack; 03-03-2013 at 08:45 PM.

  12. #12

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    The proper size of the bullet should be .325 and you shall never use jacketed or plated bullets,only soft lead.l am sticking to Swiss no1 blackpowder only because that`s what the revolver is designated for.l reload original cases (Berdan primed) and cast my bullets with"Jämttången" a mold casting original bullets.A disk of beeswax between powder and bullet prevents leading.Det gäller att va rädd om grejerna.

    PeterClick image for larger version. 

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  13. #13
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    Peter: I trust what you say and if I could get original cases, bullets etc. I would try them. But I have slugged my bore and it is .3075 so I do not believe I should be shooting a bullet of .325 dia. Your comments please. My pistol is a Husqvarna ser.# 6XX Thanks John

  14. #14
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    Hej!!

    Great to learn of others that have found nicely performing BP loads for their Svensk Nagant 7,5 revolvers!! I take mine along now and then and shoot it some at 20-50 meters. With the BP loads I have posted it has become my replacement for USA S&W and Colt DA 32-20 and 32 S&W Long caliber revolvers from long ago (similar ballistics for these 4-6 inch barreled revolvers). FYI, those S&W and Colt DA revolvers in 32-20 and 32 S&W Long were commonly used by policeman -- so, aim carefully at that burglersaurus with 7,5 Swedish Nagant loaded to original specs -- both you and burglersaurus might be surprised at result.

    FYI: Bore of mine slugs about 0,320 or a bit more -- with the ramp rifling is difficult to get truly accurate value. 0,321 soft lead bullets seem to seal well.

    Hej då!!
    Niklas

  15. #15
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    Niklas: I have to ask you some questions, when you were talking about "your heaviest load of BP in the 32-20 cases". By weight what would that be and how much compression are you getting. By weight I am using 13.2 grains which was just what looked to give me light compression. I do not want to compress so much that it becomes a cake. but probabley could put in a little more powder, to get a little more velocity. Do you think it would help to use soft lead, these bullets I am trying are kinda hard. also would a wad perhaps help accuracy.Thanks John

  16. #16
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    Husky Jack,

    Send me private message and I will provide that information.

    Niklas

  17. #17

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    Husky Jack! I have measured the bullet diameter on both Geco and Norma cartridges and they measures .326 exactly.At the same time l measured the full metal jacketed bullets on Marieberg cartridges and they were .305 only.Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #18
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    Husky Jack,

    I should have answered some of your questions in my previous post -- sorry! And now, I will answer at least one of your questions with another question! What BP are you using? I don't mind compressing somewhat, it often results in cleaner burn of BP.

    I always like softer bullets, at least for initial attempts to find good load -- especially if bullet is a bit small for cylinder throat and bore of barrel, as is case with loads I have been using.

    In my case I used two rather thick fiber wads in only partially successful attempt to get better gas seal behind undersized bullets. One such fiber wad did not help much - two are much better -- three took up too much room and were never tried. Sometimes I have resorted to small wadded up bits of soft tissue paper between powder and bullet -- this sometimes gives really good sealing because it is softer than most fiber wads. I have not tried this with my Nagant.

    Niklas

  19. #19
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    Does anyone of you gentlemen know if the Swedish military used nitro powder for the Nagant? I have heard that here in Norway, there was only BP loads used for the Norwegian ondes.

    Geir

  20. #20

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    The Swedish Military only used smokeless loads for a very short while because there were issues when stored for a longer time (powder detoriation).They went back to blackpowder loaded cartridges with soft lead bullets.Norma made up some lots of smokeless powder loads between 1955-1972 primarely for the North American market but they were never issued to the military force.I have many boxes with Geco manufactured rounds and they are excellent even now in spite they were made 71 years ago.I have chronied them to 820fps with great accuracy.I`d say as mister Burns EXCELLENT.

  21. #21
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    Some very good information. Thank you all.

    A picture of a Carl Gustaf, a Belgium with the m/87-93 modification .
    patented by Lt.Tor Törnell serial number 51, an antique Husqvarna, and in the case is a Norwegian.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by JK; 12-19-2012 at 07:59 PM.

  22. #22

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    Very nice revolvers JK and they seems to be in good condition too.Click image for larger version. 

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  23. #23
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    Hi Spedini,

    You have a very nice group also. I see too that Webley Fosbery you have, a nice invesment in that one.

    John

  24. #24

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    Thank`s John
    Have you seen my WebleyWilkinson revolver model 1892 soon to be reviewed in. the largest gun magazin in Sweden.It has a lot of history from ancient England.Click image for larger version. 

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