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Thread: Is this a Steyr M95/30?

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    Default Is this a Steyr M95/30?

    Last edited by Macapuno_Verde; 07-08-2011 at 06:32 AM. Reason: TO ENLARGE THE PICTURE CLICK RIGHT THEN CLICK "SHOW GRAPHIK" THEN CLICK ON IT AGAIN

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    Unfortunately, other than the banded front sight, suggesting a shortened rifle barrel, I don't see enough information to determine if this is a M.95/30 conversion. Questions:
    • Is there a "S" on the chamber? In other words, is the gun chambered for Patrone M.93 or for Patrone M.30?
    • Is there a second post-WWI date on the chamber?
    This will tell us if the gun is M.95 or M.95/30 conversion.
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    Is there a "S" on the chamber? In other words, is the gun chambered for Patrone M.93 or for Patrone M.30?
    Is there a second post-WWI date on the chamber?
    There is a S on the chamber
    There is a proofmark W - Eagle crest - 38
    At the side there is a circled T
    The Serial numbers on the system is the same but looks somehow different in printing style

    hope this will help you

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    Then yes, it is a M.95/30. However, if converted from a long rifle in Bulgaria (I think a saw a number on the bolt handle?), then it is a M.95/34.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

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    Yes Sir there is a number on the bolt handle fitting to the serial on the barell and system. Thank you for your fast and accurate help. Maybe one day i can give you some information too. Concerning Bulgaria, are they also "Steyr" marked? All parts have a K and on the system there s standing Steyr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macapuno_Verde View Post
    ... Concerning Bulgaria, are they also "Steyr" marked? All parts have a K and on the system there s standing Steyr.
    Bulgaria had both Steyr (K) and Budapest (R) marked guns. Bulgaria was the largest user of M.95/30 & M.95/34, so the chances of such conversion favor Bulgaria. Numbered bolts are strictly Bulgarian feature. A close examination of all stamps & markings can determine where the last reworks were done.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

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    Sir as far as i was able to get informations i saw different rifles (some with Rifle sights and some with carbine sights) beeing declared as 95/34. Under my opinion the main difference between a "just" shortened Rifle and the real conversions would be the sights and not only the banded frontsight. Is this correct? As i read that those conversions received a new barrel containing a specila kind of steel called "Tegel Stahl". Sorry if my english is not as good as i like it to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macapuno_Verde View Post
    .. the main difference between a "just" shortened Rifle and the real conversions would be the sights and not only the banded frontsight. Is this correct? As i read that those conversions received a new barrel containing a specila kind of steel called "Tegel Stahl".
    M.95/34 is a Bulgarian conversion designating a shortened Repetiergewehr to Carabiner configuration and re-chambering to Patrone M.30 (S-Patrone). M.95/30 is a conversion from 8x50 (O-Patrone) to S-Patrone. Both conversions are "real", see scan from a Bulgarian repair manual where M.95/34 is explicitly listed. During the M.95/34 conversion some of the shortened guns were fitted with short rear sights, so it is the front sight attachment that shows the origins of the barrel. Other features of the M.95/34 are shortened rifle stocks (plugged sling swivel & band screw holes) and a wide rifle lower band. In your case the stock, the bands and the rear sight are from a carbine, but the front sight is banded, which tells me the barrel came from a long rifle. This, combined with the "S" and the numbered bolt makes me think of M.95/34.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1.jpg  
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Sir i agree to most of what you said but if this carbine has a new barrel what is proved with the circled T stamp then of course they would also adapt to the more modern and easier way to apply the front side by banding it. This would mean that it is not a shortened long rifle barrel but a completely new rebuild carbine with odd parts to new configuration as my "carbine" has only side swivels at the back non plugged down sling swivels. What would it be then? The Stock has 2 serial numbers while the bigger one is the same with the serial on the receiver and the barrel the smaller one i dont know but none has been crossed or in any term made unvalued. Just my thoughts

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macapuno_Verde View Post
    ... this carbine has a new barrel what is proved with the circled T stamp then of course they would also adapt to the more modern and easier way to apply the front side by banding it. ...
    I am sorry, I don't get the logic of this argument. How is the steel grade related to the front sight design?
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    How is the steel grade related to the front sight design?
    Dearest SIR. Some M95 were REBARRELD with a new barrel stamped with the T in circle. A "cut down" carbine or Stutzen still have the old Barrel the former rifle had before this making it a "shortened Rifle to Carbine / Stutzen" conversion. So the banding of the front sight was mandantory because of technical issues. But if i will REBARREL (meaning exchanging a complete Barrel with a new one) then this would create something new as the banding was not done because there was no other way to do it in a inexpensive way but because it has proofed to be a reliable time saving possibility in connection with upgrading or converting Carbines. Especially as all other issues like Rear sights, Bajo holder, Stock have nothing to do with a former Rifle. Can you confirm this SIR?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macapuno_Verde View Post
    ...the banding of the front sight was mandantory because of technical issues. .... Can you confirm this SIR?
    I am sorry, it's the first time I hear this. Interesting, what is the source of this information?
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Default banded frontsights

    Interesting, what is the source of this information?


    If we suppose that while converting thousands of old weapon into modified weapons the basic rule was to operate as time and cost efficient as possible, especially right after there was a World War. So if you look at the picture above you will see that the old version of installing the front sight is real craftmanship but is connected with time and cost consuming work steps like brazing, polishing, burnishing and this all has to be done way accurate. I can imagine that the solution for mass production and mass converting a rifle into a carbine by changing the front sights would be banding. Banding might have first occured at the end of or after the first World War at Steyr Weapons when new idears were needed to avoid the shortages of Material. Even so this was already common on other Military Ordnance Rifles like the Pattern 14 or the Modell 1917 of this era. So now here commes my clue:

    If i have a complete carbine with carbine rearsights, carbine sling swivels, non alterated carbine stock with original matching serial numbers and a new installed T circled barrel in a newly adopted cal. 8x56R Steyr then what will this be? Especially if all parts are stamped with K for Steyr. The only thing which is puzzling me is that due to the serial stamp on the bolt it must have been a (Rifle? Carbine?) which has been produced and delivered from an officiall order for the bulgarian government at this time. I do tend to the version due to the unaltered serial numbers that it was already a carbine from beginning on.

    I hope you will forgive me if my thoughts might not be correct but without brainstorming there wont be a new solution.

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    I think the confusion is over why you think it has a new barrel, or how the circle T marking means new barrel?

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    i just read it there CLICK HERE
    This is why i focused on a new barrel Sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macapuno_Verde View Post
    i just read it there CLICK HERE
    This is why i focused on a new barrel Sir.
    The "circle T" stamp, being placed next to the Imperial eagle means that it was used before and during WWI, i.e. before the 1930 conversion.



    The site you quote explains the meaning of the "circle T" stamp (high quality steel). How do you link it to a "rebarelled gun"?
    Last edited by Nick; 07-09-2011 at 10:30 PM.
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    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Default Rebarreled

    SIR
    Maybe the following pictures will explain why i think this has been rebarreled and not only chopped down.
    Please correct me if i am wrong.
    Last edited by Macapuno_Verde; 07-10-2011 at 03:18 AM.

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    Macupino_Verde,

    This carbine has been through a Bulgarian rework, no doubt - the 20 & 17 stamps, the numbered upper band, the numbers on the right side of the stock. The gun was reworked for 8x56 in Austria in 1938 (HV 1938 stamp). I can't tell when & where the barrel was shortened, but the chances are this happened in Bulgaria.

    I think I also see a German commercial proof marks (the antlers)?
    Last edited by Nick; 07-10-2011 at 12:52 PM.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    Macupino_Verde,
    Those are excellent photos. I wish I had your photo and computer skills.

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    This carbine has been through a Bulgarian rework, no doubt - the 20 & 17 stamps, the numbered upper band, the numbers on the right side of the stock. The gun was reworked for 8x56 in Austria in 1937 (HV 1938 stamp).
    SIR

    I agree to the fullest concerning a Bulgarian rework.
    1. But concerning the barrel if it would have been shortened it would mean the original Barrel would have been reworked by changing the chamber dimensions from 8x50R to 8x56R and "maybe" also the barrel diameter from .323 to .329. But then the old military proofmark would still be visible beside the new one or it would have been visible overstamped. But none of this two possibilities can be seen on the barrel. There is only one stamp on it HV EAGLE 38.
    2. If you look closer to the letters on the barrel on the left side you will easily see that the letters especially the Q are quit different meaning that this has been stamped with a different tool then the original system proving that this barrel has been stamped after the system has been stamped. So it cant be a shortened barrel in the meaning that it was already mounted together with the system since production.
    3. If it would have been a shortened barrel it also means it would have been a rifle before leading to much more alterations concerning the stock.

    So if i suggest this already was a carbine before which received a new barrel in 1937/38 then would this be correct?

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    I am a bit confused here. The 0riginal 8x50R calibre was .329. and the 8x56R is also .329. I have both the long rifle in 8x50R and the carbine in 8x56R.

    So what would be involved would be a rechambering. Of course a worn barrel would have been replaced.

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    My thoughts on this is that the barrel has been replaced at some point.
    My reasons for thinking this are:
    1. Banded front sight with a 'carbine' rear sight. no real proof but I think that all barrels like this are replacement ones.
    2. Circle T marking on the right side of the receiver.
    3. No earlier date along with the new rework date on the barrel.
    4. And finally, the obviously different front used on the barrel serial number from the receiver serial number.
    Looking for a M95 sniper, unusual, Czech, and 1913 or earlier M95s and early Czech 98/22s (Vz 98).
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    Default M95/30 confusion.

    The Carbine in question, is an Austrian Converted M95/30.

    The W eagle 38 signifies a NEW Barrel,in 8x56R M30, fitted in Austria, and "accepted" in 1938, at the height of the delivery by the newly Nazified Austria to Bulgaria of almost all its 95/30 inventory of firearms.

    Other markings denote Bulgarian refurbishment at some time from 1938 to the 1980s. (most probably wartime.).

    From Documents Published in Bulgarian ( Manuals for the M95 rifles and the "M95/34" Carbines/Short rifles)
    it is obvious Bulgaria adopted the Patronnyi Mannlikera "S" ( or 8x56R M30) in 1934; They produced some rechambered Rifles and Carbines out of their own inventory of M95(8x50R) rifles and carbines which they had left from WWI. IN 1938, they acquired from Nazi Germany the majority of the ex Austrian Inventory of 8x56R M95/30 rifles and carbines, along with several hundred millions of rounds of newly made ammo (The "Eagle 38" type. There was an indication several years ago (This board) that some of these acquired rifles got the designation M95/38 and M95/39 in the Bulgarian Inventory.

    Whilst most of these had already been converted by simple rechambering (no new Acceptance mark on barrel) some were fitted with new barrels (Dates 34,36,37 and 38 have been noted) with the "W" (Wien) acceptance mark.
    The Old acceptance mark (Up to 1921) was usually cancelled by the "S" stamp, whilst in the New Barrels, the "S" stamp was separate from the acceptance mark.

    Austria also started in 1931, to "Cut down" Long Rifles to "Carbine" length in the 1930s, so the presence of a Long rifle Sight on a carbine Does NOT necessarily signify a post-1934 Bulgarian Conversion (although some might have been done also in Bulgaria, as the designation "Karabina M95/34" does exist in Bulgarian Literature.

    The Cut down "Barrels" are of necessity fitted with a banded-on Front sight; But this is not an indication that the original rifle is only from a Long Rifle...During WW I, to speed up barrel production for Carbines, they also used the rifle-banded-on front sights on new carbine barrels ( Original M95 carbine barrels had a "Forged" front sight base.).

    The only certain Bulgarian conversions are those with NO Austrian barrel marks, and new Barrels;

    As for "T circle" (Tegel Stahl) this mark was already in use in the 1890s, by Steyr, for the use of special alloy Steels for smokeless Powder (Found on Romanian M92/93 actions, some M88/90 actions, and almost all M945 actions and barrels, as well as all the Export Mausers etc) The Czechs after WW I also adopted this mark for special barrel and receiver steel right thru to Communist days. There is no other significance of this mark.

    Even "Bulgarian Contract M95s" were converted in Austria, by the Austrians ( left-overs after WW I) as a lot of Delivered Bulgarian Rifles ended up back in Austria during and after WW I.

    It is also unclear, at least from known documentation, if Bulgaria was having the "S" conversion done in both Bulgaria AND Austria; If this was the case, Bulgaria may have been buying M95/30s from Austria before the 1938 "Gift" by the Nazis ( actually a trade for Bulgarian Coal and other minerals.).

    From the number of Ex-Bulgarian Milsurp I have seen personally and on these Boards ( post-1980s sales)

    The range of "Carbines" is quite wide: original M95 Stuzens and Karabiners simply rechambered and "S" marked
    ( Austrian); original M95 Rifles cut down and fitted with banded front sights, but retaining long rifle rear sights;
    ?Original WW I Stutzen/Karabiners ( banded front sights) , short rear sights) converted to "S"(Austria)

    All these variants converted to a "Police type" Carbine ( Side sling swivels only, closed underneath slot in wood, washer in band, Bayonet Lug and stacking hook) and with Both original carbine barrels and banded sight barrels with WW I dates. Then come the 1930s Acceptance dates (New barrels) followed by the "Undated" Bulgarian replacement barrels.

    All of these have usually "forced matched " stocks ( Renumbered twice or even three times, and the stocks come from both original Stutzen to Carbine to cut down Rifle stocks....

    And the final Bulgarian Clincher: Electropencilled Bolts...whether this was done in Bulgaria or by Austria during "S" conversion is unclear. Some Early ("Bulgarian") Rifles/Carbines have Stamped Bolt knob numbers
    (?signifying original Bulgarian inventory rifles from WW I and the 1920s?).

    I think that a thorough reveiw of all the info on the M95/30 type of rifles and Carbines (Austrian, Hungarian, Bulgarian) should be systematized into a large "Sticky", with photos to exemplify all the variations, markings, etc, drawing on the excellent Bulgarian documents by Nick and others; A research of the relationship Austria-Bulgaria before and after the Anschluss should also be checked for info.

    Regards,
    Good Collection and Info transfer to all Mannlicher M95 aficionados,

    Doc AV
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    The Cut down "Barrels" are of necessity fitted with a banded-on Front sight; But this is not an indication that the original rifle is only from a Long Rifle...During WW I, to speed up barrel production for Carbines, they also used the rifle-banded-on front sights on new carbine barrels ( Original M95 carbine barrels had a "Forged" front sight base.).
    Cool I did not know that.

    I think that a thorough reveiw of all the info on the M95/30 type of rifles and Carbines (Austrian, Hungarian, Bulgarian) should be systematized into a large "Sticky", with photos to exemplify all the variations, markings, etc, drawing on the excellent Bulgarian documents by Nick and others; A research of the relationship Austria-Bulgaria before and after the Anschluss should also be checked for info.
    This might be a good idea. I've been slowly making an identification/serial number study for my own. Might be nice to have some of that here for everyone.



    One question that I have (brought back to the fore of my mind by the recent issue of the NRA Man at Arms for the Gun and Sword Collector magazine) is what happened to all the M95s that Russia captured during WWI? The article says they were issued at least through the end of the revolution/civil war. They just seem to disappear from history. That would be an interesting project.
    Looking for a M95 sniper, unusual, Czech, and 1913 or earlier M95s and early Czech 98/22s (Vz 98).
    Just running along ... at turtle speed
    You can view pics of my collection here.

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    M90 and M95 Mannlicher rifles turned up in China in early Comintern SAhipments to various warlords in the 1920s (Mikhail Borodin was the Russian "agent" handling China Affairs for the Comintern.)

    Also, one of the warlords developed (back in Imperial days_ a Mannlicher Rifle in 7,65x54R...a cross between an Austrian Mannlicher and a Moisin barrel ( about 10,000 were made, but then withdrawn and replaced by Mausers and Hanyangs...a photo of one has appeared on this board some time back.)

    Several Chinese Arsenals made 8x50R ammo in the 1920s, so there definitely was a lot of them available then.

    The Comintern also supplied older Mosin Nagant M91 rifles to the various factions in China, including the KMT (Kuo-Min-Tang) of Chiang Kai Shek ( via Hong Kong.). I have found an early (Pre-1908) MN91 in a batch of Chinese Junk Guns out of Guandong province.

    I would not be surprised if the Soviets swapped some M95s to the Bulgarians after WW I; (Russia had had a long standing relationship with Bulgaria before WW I, helping the Bulgars in their Independance fight with Turkey in the 1860s and 70s). Some M95s ended up in the SCW, but they were a minority of the large quantity of rifles which the USSR disposed of to Spain in that period.

    Really where they all went is buried in the ex-Soviet Archives of the Artillery Department, which archives (going back to the 1500s) are about to be Pulped/Scrapped to empty the warehouses!!!!.

    Regards,
    Doc AV
    AV Ballistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    The W eagle 38 signifies a NEW Barrel,in 8x56R M30, fitted in Austria, and "accepted" in 1938, at the height of the delivery by the newly Nazified Austria to Bulgaria of almost all its 95/30 inventory of firearms..
    It is not known, however, when the shortening of the barrel happened. Most of the M.95/30s were converted to 95/34 carbines after WWII.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocAV View Post
    It is also unclear, at least from known documentation, if Bulgaria was having the "S" conversion done in both Bulgaria AND Austria;
    The S-conversions for Bulgaria were done in Austria initially, then in Bulgaria. I have seen the reamers for the Patrone M.30; couldn't buy one, though. Some of the modified rifles & carbines (approximately 80,000) were purchased from Austria incomplete - metal only. They were fitted with new stocks in Bulgaria. The process of refurbishing and shortening to M.95/34 configuration continued after WWII as the M.95/30 and M.95/34 were kept in service for the second and third-line troops well into the 70s.
    Last edited by Nick; 07-13-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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