1936 Tula 'broken arrow' questions.
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Thread: 1936 Tula 'broken arrow' questions.

  1. #1
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    Default 1936 Tula 'broken arrow' questions.

    I've recently acquired a 36 Tula that I have many questions about. I'll give specifics here regarding the rifle and post pictures. I hope there's not a limit to space on a thread here. There is no import marks on the rifle.

    The rifle is a 36 Tula ser # 95318 matching the floorplate, the bolt is totally Izhevsk parts and the buttplate does not match. All other parts are Tula marked including the front site base and globe. Barrel band springs are milled, and it has an early magazine and floorplate carrier assembly. The cleaning rod is completely white but I cannot find a Tula or any other mark.

    I believe the stock is a Finn 'pot belly' with a pre/war time splice and shims on both the tang and crossbolt boss area. The handguard I believe is original and has brass w/copper rivets. There are no SA marks and no SCW markings, but a stock makers mark. There are some odd markings under the buttplate on the stock but I don't believe I can get a pic of them.

    This stock has been married to this barrel and receiver for a very long time. When I took it apart it was obvious that it may never had been apart since being married together.

    I've seen another 36 Tula with what I call the 'broken arrow' which I can't believe is that common. I'd like to find out if there are other 36's out there near this serial that were SCW and may have had this broken arrow on it. Perhaps not all SCW's carried the typical markings we're all familiar with. I appreciate any questions or input. Now for the pics:




  2. #2
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    More pics:
















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    More:





















    Thanks for any thoughts

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  5. #4
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    Now THAT is a rifle with a TON of history!!...the only thing I can say for sure is that it indeed has a classic Finn pre-war/wartime splice...and does indeed look like the Finn pot-bellied version and NOT the Soviet/Finn spliced stock!!...

    ...as far as the rest...gonna leave that to the more seasoned GBoards vets!!...

    Nice Mosin, btw!!
    MY FIRST TEN MOSIN NAGANTS:
    1925 Izhevsk m1891/30 Ex-Dragoon- "Katalin"
    1939 Tula m1891/30 Lam. Stock- "Irena"
    1934 Tikka m27- "Tiina-Rakel"
    1938 Tula m1891/30 Finn Captured- "Nainen Sodassa"
    1955 Type 53 Carbine- "Thu Huong"
    1944 Tikka m1891/30- "Isoäiti"
    1942 VKT m1891- "Mummo"
    1916 Tula PTG m1891 Finn'd- "Petra"
    1967 No-Maker m39- "Tuuli"
    1926-8 Bohler-Stahl m24- "Vanha Rouva"

  6. #5
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    Default The "Z" Finn stock...

    Well, the stock is as Finn as you can get, two-part and marked with the "Z" of one of the Finnish arms depots -other Finns may have an "L" or "S" there. Finns only used the "SA" after about 1942, I'm told, so that isn't essential. Is the bolt really an odd color or is that just a photo anomaly? The rifle itself looks pretty much regular issue -the Finns used a motley collection of parts to keep them going, so that mismatching may be Finn. I'm surprised there aren't more scratches on the floorplate if it is a battlefield veteran.
    I wish I knew what the "O" mark meant - perhaps a unit ot arsenal proof after the rifle was lost to the Finns in the Winter War or some sort of unit mark? (Or, as the less-romantic cynics would say, somebody just had an old Finn stock sitting around...)
    Last edited by Stalin's Ghost; 08-03-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #6
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    nice rifle with alot of history
    I'd rather be right than politically correct.
    looking for PU scopes #b07850, A89721 and PEM #b27948, i have its rifle,

    check out the pics of my GECO 1929 tula sniper, 1895 winchester russian contract rifle in 762x54, Remington mosin cadet trainer with 03 lug, New England Westinghouse cadet rifle with US property stamps, 1927 izhvesk dragoon , 1929 izhvesk dragoon, instructie 91/30 rifle, m24 lotta , triple scope number pu sniper and others in my albums

  8. #7
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    I'd call your rifle a Finn capture.

    Just to add some information for your correlation, I have a '36 Tula that is considered as SCW. Serial number is in the 2276xx range. The arrow is not broken, nor is any of the star. I notice similar breaks in your star in two places, one on the left side of the top point and one on the right side of the 5 o'clock point. The three breaks seem to be at least nearly in a straight line to each other, almost like a damaged die, but the "damage" line is not complete in that the line would have gone through the left line of the arrow point but it is not broken.

    Nice rifle. It is one that I'd like to have, as my later rifle is a round receiver and your earlier one is hex - one of the last Tula hex receivers, at least in regular production (1936 was the transition year from hex to round for Tula just as 1935 was for Izhevsk). Best regards.
    EEG

    Looking for these MN floorplates:

    WTT+$ or WTB

  9. #8
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    I have a Finn refurbed 1935 Tula SA marked 91/30 in a potbelly stock, it also has the broken arrow.

  10. #9
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    Stalin's Ghost, the bolt is about like you see it, I've since 'cleaned it up' a little but it still has an odd color. BTW could you enlighten me on the stock? I was surprised that the forestock is ALL Tula, ie: older milled band springs, old end cap etc. I thought for a Finn that there would have been more of a mix master across the board.

    Alakablam
    I purchased this from a reliable person, to me, that told me this was in his grandfathers collection and that he was told this was a bringback by him. ( yes I'm aware there's a million stories ) I know it doesn't have the typical SCW traits, but I do believe it has some and the year fits. This is the primary reason I'm searching for 1936 Tula serial #'s around this that are for certain SCW Mosin's. I'm of the opinion that not ALL SCW's were marked as such and this is a possibility.

    mdmosin thanks for the feedback, any way you can get us a pic of yours? I'd like to see your breaks. I would have thought that if this was a die issue that it wouldn't have gone on for a year.

    I'm on a mission to find these 1936 serial #'s close to mine.

    Thanks all, I'm keeping this one.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stalin's Ghost View Post
    Well, the stock is as Finn as you can get, two-part and marked with the "Z" of one of the Finnish arms depots -other Finns may have an "L" or "S" there. Finns only used the "SA" after about 1942, I'm told, so that isn't essential. Is the bolt really an odd color or is that just a photo anomaly? The rifle itself looks pretty much regular issue -the Finns used a motley collection of parts to keep them going, so that mismatching may be Finn. I'm surprised there aren't more scratches on the floorplate if it is a battlefield veteran.
    I wish I knew what the "O" mark meant - perhaps a unit ot arsenal proof after the rifle was lost to the Finns in the Winter War or some sort of unit mark? (Or, as the less-romantic cynics would say, somebody just had an old Finn stock sitting around...)
    Do you mean the "O" inside a circle on the right side near the wood line? I thought this was a Russian "accuracy" proof, but I'm not sure.

    What is the "X" mark in this location? It's not a Russian capture (re-capture) mark is it?

  12. #11
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    I can send pics in a couple of weeks, my 1935 is a couple of states away from me.

  13. #12
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    I have this one, #60994 (coincidentally, a Finn capture, as well):

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1936 Finned Tula PE Sniper 006.jpg 
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    I used to have #60951, which is also a PE sniper ("ex", but not Finn captured), but it now belongs to another board member. It did NOT have the broken arrow.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I also have another hex '36 that's in the 111,000 range and does not have the broken arrow, either.


    John

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    Those are exactly what I wanted to see; hopefully there will be additional posts to this thread that can give us some additional insight. I'm not certain of the production numbers for 36 but doesn't it seem strange that you've had two that are only 43 numbers apart and only one has the break? It also seems odd to me that mine is 35,000 pieces away but still has the break. I'd think that if there was a die issue it would have been resolved within 35,000 pieces.

    BTW, were all of yours hex's? Oh yeah, as I stated originally, I have no SA or SCW marks which really confuses me. I'm thinking that if I can verify some serial numbers within 100 - 200K numbers away from mine that are SCW marked , that there is a realistic chance that this rifle did get back without the marks or was reused and Finn captured.

    I gotta tell you, this is one of the primary reasons I collect Mosins. The history and path of these rifles truly are intriguing; and they are great to shoot!

  15. #14
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    I have a '36 round that's #189306. No break in the arrow. I'm not sure of what serial range you start to see the round receivers, but it would likely be somewhere between 111,000 and 189,000, based on what I have. Someone, at some time, may have done a survey on this. You would have to search for it.

    John

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joop View Post
    I have a '36 round that's #189306. No break in the arrow. I'm not sure of what serial range you start to see the round receivers, but it would likely be somewhere between 111,000 and 189,000, based on what I have. Someone, at some time, may have done a survey on this. You would have to search for it.

    John
    Great stuff! I have a earlier 1936 hex and always wondered when the round receiver switch was. Sounds like a good idea for a survey

  17. #16
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    I'd say the broken arrow is just a case of a bad/damaged stamp.

    Either way it's a great example of a very nice Finn capture. Always neat to see a hex receiver '36 Tula, especially in such nice condition and with Finnish captured history.
    Owner, sole proprietor, and chief of cantankerousness for Sergei's Armory.

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    ive got #163948 and its a round receiver
    I'd rather be right than politically correct.
    looking for PU scopes #b07850, A89721 and PEM #b27948, i have its rifle,

    check out the pics of my GECO 1929 tula sniper, 1895 winchester russian contract rifle in 762x54, Remington mosin cadet trainer with 03 lug, New England Westinghouse cadet rifle with US property stamps, 1927 izhvesk dragoon , 1929 izhvesk dragoon, instructie 91/30 rifle, m24 lotta , triple scope number pu sniper and others in my albums

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