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Rifle used by Val Kilmer in Ghost and the Darkness

79K views 141 replies 46 participants last post by  9.3shooter 
#1 ·
I re-watched Ghost and the Darkness a few days ago and i was wondering if the rifle that Val Kilmer's character John Patterson used was a Metford? It was a beautiful rifle. Is this historically correct?

Thanks!
 
#31 ·
jC5

The film was a re-inactment of the battle of Talana, it was going to be produced as a short film, but never was.

Gen P Symmons was armed with my 455 mk II Webley 9and blanks supplied by me)

I (a Boer) was armed with my carbine 7mm Mauser and C96 pistol.

My other guns was a 1873 Martini, a Artiliry martini (450/577 both)
and my Long Lee Metford and my Mauser 7mm.

As for the films containing Lee Speeds, no I have not seen others.
I recall a photo of a native Chief of Ethiopia (I think) called somethig like Raskonin (My memory is not clear)? He was standing with a Lee Speed.

Have you seen Rhodes? Best Lee Speed pictures there.
As for the raiders last stand, I have seen a photo of that, but it was of the Boers all armed with their Mausers, and some Lee Metfords on the ground. Cant recall if there was any Speeds there. I was not aquinted with Lee Speeds at the time. But lucky I do now!

Pictures of some of mine will follow.
 
#33 ·
Jc5 - that information came from an article in our local Collectors guild magazine by Ray McMahon.
He had access to a copy of the BSA board miniutes - borrowed from Ian Skennerton I believe - and detailed some of the sporters and orders for them.
The reference "The 400 flat top rib barrel sporters ordered by the British South Africa Company in February and May 1895 had their first tast of action when Dr Jameson's force comprising 480 men ..... surrendered to Commandant Cronje on the 2nd January 1896" would not, I presume have come from the minutes but another source.
 
#34 ·
Rowdy,

Would that be the article from Skennerton' Arms & Militaria Collector #3, by Ray McMahon? He lists several references but doesn't footnote anything. I'd love to know exactly where that info came from. I'm not doubting it's true, of course, I just like things footnoted.

gunsskip1981,
Can you recall anything more precise about that photo of the Ethiopian chief? If not the name, then maybe where you saw it?

Again, are there any photos or references to Lee Speeds before WWII (besides commercial catalogs)?

Or any other sources of info? Articles and such? I know there's some stuff in A&M Collector. Anything else?

Thanks all
 
#36 ·
in Africa

Here's the photo...I scanned it years ago from a book on Africa that I no longer have, but I'm pretty sure that the fellow is not Bell. Looks like a Lee Speed, don't you think?

Any memories of where I can find that pic of the Ethiopian chap? Or any other old Lee Speed photos?
 
#37 ·
Yes its def a lee speed.

I'm trying to remember. But all my books and photos etc are back home in South Africa. I'm going there end of July, will scan everything I can lay my hands on also take pics of my own Lee Speeds.

I see you are very interested. Maybe try to get enough info for a book. I'll buy the first one! :) Will be more than glad to help as much as I can.

There is a guy called Jose Morin in Texas who is a collector of Lee Speeds. See if you can contact him. I will PM you his email address.
 
#38 ·
thanks for all those photos and info, great to learn something about firearms i'm not familiar with. Hal O'Peridol.... nice rifle, can you tell me more about the mount you have it on? a better pic of the mount would be nice. all these rifles just look like they were made for dangerous game and fit right at home in india and africa, thanks again.
 
#41 ·
Quote from a nother forum

"The reprint of the Manton 1925 catalog is available from www.kynochammunition.co.uk . The cut shows an earlier type of the Lee-Speed action, the name of the civilian versions of the Lee-Enfield, but new cuts were expensive to make and so were used in catalogs over and over again. When BSA was stopped from selling .303 rifles in India, they had to look for another rimmed cartridge with reasonably low pressure, but similar ballistics that fitted in the comparatively weak Lee action. The most popular hunting load for the .303 at that time was the .303 Mk VI loaded with a soft point bullet, essentially the .303 Mk II*C , the world-infamous Dum-Dum load. These loads gave a 215 grs bullet a mv of 2060 fps, so the 244grs at 2034fps of the 8x50R Mannlicher/.315 was definitely not inferior! I quoted the Kynoch ballistics,as Manton´s appear to be rounded off a little bit.
The maximum case dimensions of the old 8x50R were still listed in the 1991 German proof tables. For sure someone over there has got a .315 case and a caliper to compare them, but consider the generous manufacturing tolerances:
Total length of case: 50.2 mm= 1.976"
length to start of shoulder: 38.29mm= 1.51"
" " " " Neck: 44.17mm= 1.74"
rim thickness: 1.4mm= .055"
rim diameter: 14.2mm = .56"
base diam.: 12.6mm= .496"
shoulder diam.: 12.09mm = .476"
neck diam.: 9.04mm = .355"
Bullet diam.: 8.22 mm =.324 "

Very informative, but his knowledge on Lee Speeds is limited?
 
#42 ·
Hunting with the Lee Speed

Just some useless info. I used my Lee Speed on my very first hunt and bagged an Impala with it. Nice to have given the old girl a day out.
 
#43 ·
Gunskip,

Thanks for the info!
.
I didn't see the 1925 Manton catalog at the Kynoch site. Perhaps you know another source? I do have a 1926-27 Manton catalog (reprint), and it lists the Lee available in .315 (which I see from your post is the 8x50R Mannlicher). The catalog also has some pages in the front about the ammunition ban in India (sounds depressingly modern with all its talk of licenses, restrictions, etc.).
..

Fletch--that's not "useless" info at all! Please post details or photos of that hunt if you can!
 
#50 ·
Lee Speed sporting rifles.

In Skennerton's book he shows a reproduced advert for BSA sporting Lees. It states that they were available in 303, 8mm and 7mm calibres. Would the 7mm have been 7x57 Mauser, or would it have been the rimmed version of that round, 7x57R?
 
#53 · (Edited)
came across this picture in Emanoel Lee's book To The Bitter End, thought I would share, the rifle in the pile to the right looks to be a Lee Speed? Not sure myself, butinteresting picture.
Wangsly,

Good find! Great picture!

It could be a Lee Speed, but it's more likely a cut down military Lee, because the buttstock is military. I cannot make out whether it has a safety on the cocking piece; bolt handle is the round knob rather than the carbine type (which doesn't prove anything, because both were options, but a flat knob would cinch it as an Lee Speed).

Does anyone know if any of the Jameson Raid rifles survive?
 
#52 ·
Hi gunssklip, whereabouts are these rifles, are they still available, and what calibre are they in? I'd be really interested in aquiring one in 7mm, especially if it's been scoped in keeping with the age of the rifle.
My current stalking land is limited to a maximum, non negotiable .30 calibre limit. So a rediculously big cartridge like 300 H&H is OK, but 303 falls foul of the rule, allbe it by the tiniest of margins.
 
#54 ·
**Wangsley

Well spotted mate, but its def not a Lee Speed. J5C is right, just look at the butt. There are two very similar examples in the museum in Bloemfontein, South Africa. The Boers were very crafty people. Wait till you see the ones with engraved stocks! Very nice!

**Harry, sorry mate they are in 303 cal. To be honest, I have NEVER seen one in 7mm or .375 And I have seen quite a few. But I'm sure they are out there. Would be nice to see some close up pictures of one. But PM me if you have additional questions.

**J5C, I'm not so sure that Rhodes would have bought Lee Speeds for jameson's army. I will see if I can find any dairies from Boer Soldiers of Gen Cronje's Kommando.
 
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