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Rheinmetall Nr. 4 shotgun?

44K views 36 replies 15 participants last post by  vwguy 
#1 ·
I guess I should've originally posted in this forum...

Does anyone here own, or know about the Rheinmetall Nr. 4 shotgun? They look very similar to the browning auto 5.

A local gunshop has one, and I'm interested, but I have no idea what these shotguns are worth. My internet searches haven't turned up much.​
 
#2 ·
Pretty much drew a blank. They were not Browning patent guns, just look likes. One sold on GunsAmerica a while ago, asking price $425.
 
#4 ·
The Rheinmetall No. 4 automatic shotgun - a rare bird

Gentlemen,

just recently I bought a new toy what's a Rheinmetall Nr. 4 automatic shotgun in 16 ga., SN 3223.



As the Rheinmetall is a very rare bird, I like to present the gun in detail and what I did find out up to now about it.

History/Background

the 1889 founded company „Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabrik Actiengesellschaft“ (later renamed to Rheinmetall) was/is a defence company involved mostly in guns/grenades, but also in small arms. In 1901 Rheinmetall acquired the Dreyse company in Sömmerda. There, production of fuses, pistols, small bore rifles and ammunition was continued or set up. A known product from Sömmerda (a small town in Thuringia, Germany) is the Dreyse 1907 pistol in .32 acp.

After WWI Rheinmetall moved increasingly into non-military production; as a part of the newly discovered business the Rheinmetall Nr. shotgun was developed.

Development of the Rheinmetall Nr. 4

On 14. October 1919, German patent 358357 was applied. Said patent shows a shotgun looking very similar to the Browning A5, but having a fixed barrel and a rotating looking breech device. Obviously, it had a box magazine, not a tubular magazine.



On 28. December1921 German patent No. 392225 was filed. Said patent is about the rotating breech mechanism what's in fact present in the Rheinmetall Nr. 4




On 27. February 1922 German patents 366337 (removable bolt handle) and 374071 (magazine cut-off) were filed. Both devices are present in the Rheinmetall No. 4 also.





Begin of sales: I assume, sales started in 1922, at least not before filing of the two latest patents in February 1922. In a book[Ref. 1] is stated, that "currently the Rheinmetall is working on an automatic shotgun, but it isn't ready yet".

End of sales: My guess (!): in 1926/27. In a book [Ref. 2] of 1926 the Rheinmetall No. 4 still is described thoroughly, but it isn't shown in the Geco catalog of 1927. And in a book [Ref. 3] of 1928 is mentioned, that production of the Rheinmetall has been discontinued. As reasons is given, that the Rheinmetall wasn’t as handy and reliable as the Browning.

In any case: only very few ever were made. The exact number is unknown to me; even a ballpark figure strictly is a guess. I'm guessing (!) a total number of app. 5,000. Hopefully; I'll be able to give a better figure in the future. All No. 4s were made in 16 ga with short 2 9/16" chambers. Three barrel lengths were available (Ref. 4) i. e. 65 cm (25.6"), 70 cm (27.5") and 74 cm (29"). All Stocks had a pistol grip and a cheek piece. Buttplate is horn without any factory logo. Only legend present is "Rheinmetall Nr. 4" on the left side of the receiver.



By the way: I don't know, why it's a "No. 4". I'm not aware of a "Rheinmetall No. 1" No. 2, No. 3. Maybe (!) it's the number of development projects. The one shown in the first mentioned patent could be the No. 1 - the last development was the No. 4. I don't know. An other explanation could be, that Rheinmetall emphasized the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] automatic shotgun. This may sound strange, but in the article of 1925 it is emphasized, that the Rheinmetall is, in fact, the fourth auto shotgun after the Browning, the Sjögren and the Winchester.


Variations:

Although the No. 4 was made only for a very short period of time, there are at least two (maybe even three) different variations:

1/ the early variation: this one has a safety as shown in the original Rheinmetall manual:



I have no photo of the type 1 safety. But a Rheinmetall SN 337 with this feature was auctioned recently:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=246798688

This early variation was sold for $280. A bargain, for my opinion. I don’t like to give value figures, but personally (!!!!!) I see the value of a Rheinmetall in good condition I the $1,000 range.

I'm aware of the existence of two with said feature, both have serial numbers in the 3xx range (one of which I examined personally). Unfortunately, I don't have a photo, but this type 1 safety is like shown in the manual: a slider arranged behind the trigger guard.


2/ the later (mid?) variation: safety type 2 is completely different: a rocker with an axle pin running through the trigger guard. In the safe position a dent acts against the back of the trigger - similar to the safety of the Browning Double Auto. Up to date four are known to me with serial numbers in the 2xxx and 3xxx range.



3/ Maybe (not confirmed yet) there was a third variation, now with a sliding safety button on top grip tang. An owner of two Rheinmetalls told me so; he saw a photo with said feature. But: just a rumour until I'll get confirmation.



Now for the gun


My new toy is a second variation; SN is 3223. Currently the highest SN I'm aware of (what doesn't mean anything, as I'm aware of only five others with confirmed serial numbers). Condition is OK: blueing on the receiver is almost completely gone, the barrel (74 cm = 29") has nearly perfect blueing remaining and a perfect bore.







Stock's condition is quiet nice.





Forearm is broken and repaired (the greatest problem of Browning A5s obviously wasn't solved with the Rheinmetall), original friction piece is missing (probably the reason for the broken forearm).





Proof markings are the normal German ones. A proof date is not present; I'm not sure, if this means, that it was proofed prior to September 1923 or not.




Buttplate has serial number pencilled inside.






The Browning Auto 5 vs. the Rheinmetall Nr. 4

The look

When it comes to the Rheinmetall it often described as a "Browning Auto 5 clone" or "copy". Let's see, if this is true.

OK, a first look on the gun reminds on the A5: square receiver with a hump, long recoil and other features known from the A5. Let's start with a direct comparison: the Rheinmetall on top, an early 16 ga. Browning Auto 5 on bottom:



Wow, the Rheinmetall is long as a stretch limo. In fact, the receiver is 3.5 cm (1.4”) longer than that of a 16 ga. A5. And the receiver is even longer than that of a 12 gauge A5.



How long the Nr. 4 really is I discovered when trying to put it in my gun safe. The gun is too long and it does not fit in my safe.

All in all, there are enough differences in the appearance between the Rheinmetall and the Browning. The Rheinmetall is a "Auto 5 look-alike" like Stevie wonder is an "Elvis look-alike". The look is quiet odd - in comparison, the A5 looks better and has the more elegant appearance. This point clearly goes to the Browning.

The technical features/serviceability

The disassembly process will reveal the most significant differences:

1/ Removing the trigger group: unscrew screws at the middle of the receiver (like on an A5) and unscrew screws on left side on top rear of receiver.

Now for the big surprise……. drum roll……. the big moment:



Aaaaah! Now, that's something known from the Winchester 1911 SL, but not from the Browning Auto 5.



A nice feature: by unscrewing four screws the whole "entrails" are open for cleaning. What normally will be sufficient.

This round goes to the Rheinmetall.

By the way: the receiver is a true piece of old-fashioned heavy metal. Very solid.




2/removing the breech mechanism, what's theoretically an easy job, because it's simply pulled out to the rear (after having depressed and turned the bolt handle, because it's fixed to the bolt by a bayonet socket). If you know the trick how to remove the handle. Currently, the handle still doesn't come off the breech and I don't understand the reason why. In Dr. Spangenberg's article [Ref. 5] he described in detail how to remove the handle (bring bolt parts to maximum distance, press in the handle and turn it for 70°), and I did accordingly, but the handle does come off.



3/Removing the stock: stock is fastened to the receiver by a central nut/screw arrangement. The nut is a grooved nut making a special wrench necessary. Well, to every Rheinmetall such a special wrench was delivered - but of course, the wrench is missing. So I was forced to make me such a wrench by myself. An old spark plug wrench laying around was the matching candidate. I like such a MacGyver part of a field-stripping job….





Now: the breech is totally different from those of the Browning and the Winchester. Can’t show a photo of the breech at the moment (I don’t get the thing out).

What's also different:

safety

Already mentioned – but here’s another photo of the trigger group, showing not nónly the type 2 safety, but also a pile of three springs (hammer spring, trigger spring, safety spring).



magazine cut-off






The Magazine cut-off is different and has the better design; what's unusual: when the button is pointing to the rear of the receiver it's in the normal working position (contrary to the A5).

magazine tube




The magazine tube easily can be unscrewed - a dream for any A5 owner who has to replace the tube. The magazine spring retainer also is different: it's screwed into the magazine tube at the rear (receiver side).

main spring tube

can easily be taken apart, as it is not fixed to the trigger assembly – there’s simply an anti-twist safety. The tube is inserted from the front and later is screwed to the stock. That’s it! A nice design.




Barrel extension

Due to the different locking mechanism the barrel extension does not have a square hole.


On top the Rheinmetall barrel extension on bottom that of an A-5.

Carrier - The carrier has a skeleton structure.




Other details








All in all, a Rheinmetall may look a little bit like a Browning Auto 5, but in sum differs from the Browning noticeably.

Lastly: Whoever knows a Rheinmetall Nr. 4, it's SN, type of safety and barrel length: I'd be happy about a notice!

Regards

Martin


References:


Ref. 1: Albert Preuß: “Jagdwaffen”, Neumann printing house, 1922 (foreword written in Summer 1921), page 149

Ref. 2: Konrad Eilers “Handbuch der praktischen Schußwaffenkunde und Schießkunst”, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] edition, Paul Parey printing house, Berlin 1926 (foreword written in May 1926)

Ref. 3: Schmuderer-Maretsch „Jagd- und Sport-Waffenkunde“, Paul Parey printing house, Berlin 1928 (foreword written in September1927)

Ref. 4: Short article in German gun journal „Der Waffenschmied“, 1925, page 560

Ref. 5: Article "The Rheinmetall Automatic Shotgun No. 4" by Dr. Spangenberg in "The International Arms Review" No. 1, 1979, p. 266 - 276

There shall be an article "Rheinmetall Shotgun" in "American Rifleman" of August 1976, p. 54. If anybody is willing to send me a scan of this article, I would be most thankful!
 
#7 ·
Excellent find, good information. I'm making this a sticky!
Hi Alan,

Thanks for making it a sticky. Wow, that’s an honour!

very good write up. looks like a fun gun. i may have not caught it while reading, what is the overall length?
Hi GregM1,

Sorry, I failed to mention it: overall length is 1.26 metres = 4’ – 1 6/10”. Most of the length comes from the long barrel, but also over an inch goes to the long receiver.

Weight is 3.5 kilograms = 7.7 lbs, while my 16 ga. Browning Auto 5 (with a 27 ½” long barrel) weights 3.3 kilograms = 7.3 lbs. Considering the shorter barrel of my A5 that isn’t that heavy. What’s a surprise, as the Rheinmetall makes a heavy impression.

BTW: all parts are made rock solid and most part appear to be more expensive than those of a Browning Auto 5. Maybe an other reason for it’s failure: production obviously was too expensive.

Except for at least one part: the hammer.



This part is made cheaper than that of an A-5: the little roller co-acting with the hammer spring is missing.


Regards

Martin
 
#8 ·
Gentlemen,

some new info.

Just recently, I discovered the August 1976 issue of “The American Rifleman”. Actually, I discovered all items of said magazine here:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/Library/BookListing.aspx?sid=183755

In the August 1976 issue, pages 54 and 58 is a short description of the Rheinmetall. The interesting part of it is mentioning of export to the US – importers were P. von Frantzius, Chicago, Ill. and A. F. Stoeger Inc. New York City.

A collector friend was so kind to send me a scan of the relating page of Stoeger’s 1925 catalog showing the Rheinmetall. There, the matted rib option is mentioned. Price was $75 for the normal barrel version and $87 for the matted rib variation.



So, the Rheinmetall was exported to the US, what explains the “Made in Germany” marking on some of these guns. On a normal Rheinmetall for the domestic German market this “Made in Germany” is not present.

Regards

Martin
 
#12 ·
Hi „breakeyp“,

thanks for the details of your Rheinmetall.

Barrel length is only 24.5” and has no base for the front sight? Hum….. is the barrel shortened maybe? I’m asking, because this length isn’t mentioned in period publications (shortest factory original length was 25.6” = 65 cm). Just wondering.

Unusual is also the SKEET marking. Haven’t seen this before.

Regards

Martin
 
#16 ·
Hi breakeyp,

Thank you very much for the photos. Hum…. Hard to tell from the photos, but the missing base, the marking “SKEET” and the absence of “Made in Germany” makes me believe (!) the barrel could be shortened. First of all, the barrel length is unusual short, secondly “SKEET” wasn’t popular (in fact, totally unknown) in Germany in the 20s, and thirdly, the gun doesn’t seem to be an export model mentioned for the US market – otherwise, it would be marked with “Made in Germany” (what could explain the “SKEET” marking).

Anyway. The Rheinmetall Nr. 4 is a scarce bird and everyone is a treasure. I can live with the broken forearm (yours seems to be perfect in condition), and your barrel (IF (!) shortened) shouldn’t be a problem eighter.

Regards

Martin
 
#17 ·
New here, as in this is my 1st post. I have a Rheinmetall Nr. 4 that my grandpa gave me in 2002 before he died. He said his brother in law brought it back from WWII. The only markings on it are Rheinmetall Nr.4 on the left side, "nitro" on the barrell and "1768" under the receiver. He had the original sling that was on it but it got misplaced over the years and never turned up. He had taken it off and put it in a plastic bag because it had begun to dry rot. It has the pivoting safety on the trigger guard too. The stock is in very good condition and the bluing is also very good. I always figured it to be a 20 ga. due to barrel and receiver size. I'll try to get some pics up in the coming days.
 
#21 ·
Hi KDTX,

thanks for the photos. Nice gun!

Would it be possible to see also a photo of the proofs on the barrel’s underside? What I’m after: presence of a proof date code (missing on my gun as well as on most Rheinmetalls I’ve seen so far). Such a date code would be a three or four digit code, like 324 (= March 1924) or 1125 (= November 1925). Anything like this present on your gun?

Martin
 
#27 ·
Hi guys!

I got a while ago Rheinmetal no. 4 but it was in bad condition especially inside. Most of the parts were fixed by "gunsmith" that had no tools only welding torch, big hammer and a screwdriver that didn't fit to any screw!
For making some parts I would be very pleased if someone could take some photos of inside parts. I would also like to know what is inside the forearm, is there the same kind of friction ring system like Auto 5 or something else?
For sauerfan: SN is 2079, safety type 2 and barrel lenght 27,5". Markings only proof marks and letter K.
 
#28 ·
I have a shotgun that i believe has ties to Rheinmetall. It came from Germany in the 1850's with my wife's family. It was given to me by her brother. It is a side by side 16? gauge double barrel muzzle loader. It is a flintlock converted to percussion cap. The gun is silver fitted with art in the silver. The maker is Ernst Erhardt of Zella. written in inlaid silver. Here is one picture of many. I need help to research.
 

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