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Thread: Dutch Beaumont

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    Default Dutch Beaumont

    Hi All.
    I am a new member of gunboards and have over several years of owning my Dutch Beaumont M1871 Carbine, tried to (but unsuccessfully) find out more about it and wondering if it could have been a production piece. Or could I have the only one in existence, perhaps it could be that at some time in it's life someone has altered it for there own use?
    Measurements are: over all:38"...Barrel length:18".
    http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232fp73397>nu%3D%3A%3A96>%3A68>243>WSNRCG%3 D34%3B36358<3334nu0mrj


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    Beaumonts were not originally made as carbines. There are a number of conversions seen, some done for paramilitary forces and perhaps some done by the Germans in WWI as reserve and training weapons. Many were also cut down for sporting use.

    Single shot Beaumonts are relatively rare, most having been converted in 1888 to the frequently seen repeater version.

    Most of the carbines I have seen had a front barrel band. Yours looks more like a sporting version.

    Some things to look for are any markings that say "Deutches Reich" which would suggest German use. If the edges of the bolt head are sharp, it is a very early model. The extractor configuration and sight markings will say something about the original version.

    This link http://oldmilitaryrifles.eu/netherlands/netherlands.htm has some of the best information on history and modification details . www.militaryrifles.com also has some details as well. The Dutch Army Museum is a good resource, Contact [email protected]. He is usually willing to discuss Beaumonts via email.

    Some 1871 models were apparently made at St Etienne, France (not documented in the reference site) and exported to Chile for an obscure war. These were in the 1873 Navy configuration, maybe in the Chilean Comblain caliber. Traces of a Chilean shield or star cartouche on the stock and a 5 digit s/n would suggest that. These had a barrel lug for a saber style bayonet, but that is gone if it was there. There may have been some commercial Beaumonts made, but there is no real reference to them. I have an 1871 full length rifle that seems to lack military marks.

    I collect these and the variants. If you are ever interested in selling, contact me.

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    That's interesting, esp the small carbine type rear sight. Looks like an original rod but no front band. I'd research it. Never seen one like it before, in person or a photo!
    Never send cash

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    The small sight was used on the single shot beaumonts up to 1879 when they were modified to the larger version seen on the 71/88 repeaters.

    The original Beaumont rod heads were serrated on the edge and later had the single slot filled in. I can't see the details well in the picture, but the sides on that head look smooth and it seems to have a two hole slot, so I doubt it is original.

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    Hi.
    Thanks for your interest and information, I have seen one other without a front barrel band only today on the net at http://www.dorotheum.com/uploads/tx_...9_61211_45.jpg
    My Beaumont doesn't seem have any military markings, the maker is P. Stevens Maastricht.
    Cleaning rod only has one slot picture is showing an high light.
    I don't think the rod is original it looks to be French. Looks as if I still have a lot to find out about this rifle.
    Sorry I don't see myself selling any of my collection of obsolete and de-act weapons in the future.

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    P Stevens was one of the pimary makers of the Beaumont for the Dutch Army along with versions from J Barr, and Suhl. The Stevens mark reinforces my belief it is a cut down infantry rifle.

    It is interesting that yours looks so much like the one at auction. There seem to be a few holes in the Beaumont history and anything is possible.

    Are there any St. Etienne marks like at: http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...Proofmarks.pdf?

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    Last edited by Dave J; 09-09-2011 at 05:10 PM.

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    I have two, one a full length rifle and the other a "carbine" However another source stated the carbine is actualy a shortened rifle, and the germans had a hand in that. When they became obsolete, a number of surplus ones were "sporterized by a german firm around the early 1900's for hunting. Since the germans did the job, it was very professional, everything being moved back to a shorter length including the nosecap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave J View Post
    Just put a couple of pictures on to show markings on the cleaning rod that I thought may be French..
    Your cleaning rod appears to be from Gras Mle 1874. The Beaumont cleaning rod has a serrated head with no slot.
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

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    That is an interesting picture of the bolt head. An 1871 head should have a fixed extractor where the slot and guide pins are now, pinned, screwed or dovetailed into the head and it would not have an ejector.

    When the rifles were modified in 1888 the extractor was moved about 180 degrees to the other side of the head and a guide pin inserted for the ejector along with a small positioning slot. Your bolt head slot, guide pin and ejector are very different and don't look like a Dutch mod. While the ejector looks functional, I don't see how the cartridge would be extracted unless the ejector does that also. In the original design the extractor would pull the cartridge back along with the ejector until the ejector hit the stop and pushed the left side of the crtridge forward and then pivot it out of the receiver. With no extractor on the other side of the bolt that doesn't seem like it would happen.

    They also machined a small piece out of the right side of the receiver bridge to accommodate the extractor in its new location and placed a strengthening member on the right outside of the bridge, presumably to make the bolt locking surface stronger.


    I can’t see any extractor on the right side of the head. If it was there, it could jam on the receiver bridge, unless the slot was machined out. Without the strengthening member, the locking surface might be seriously weakened and perhaps dangerous. The open bolt picture shows what looks like an extractor on the left, but I assume that is the ejector/extractor shown in the bolt picture. That piece looks too thick to grab the rim, but it is hard to tell.

    Here are some pictures of the 1871 and 1888 bolt heads. In the first photo, the top two are 1871 heads with different methods of attaching the extractor. The bottom one is an 1888 head showing the guide pin for the ejector. Note the extractor is on the opposite side from the ejector guide pin.The second photo is a better picture of the 1871 head with a dovetailed extractor. The third photo is details on the 1888 bolt head.


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    By the way that is a very nice looking piece. Beaumonts were originally left in the white, except for the later added vitali magazine which was blued.
    Last edited by fausto4; 09-11-2011 at 12:30 PM.

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    Hi.
    I had looked at some of the old posts that you made in 2010 and around. You posted pictures of your bolts at that time and I noticed that they had sprung ejector, so I thought I would send you a picture of the one that is in my 1871.
    It is a sliding extractor that slides between the two pins so as the bolt slides all the way back it leaves the extractor proud of the bolt head and the round has to be placed in the grove of the extractor when pushing the bolt together with the round into the breech the breech has a small recess to accommodate the extractor see pic, there is not an ejector so when the bolt is withdrawn with the round the round it has to be tipped out of the breech. I hope this picture helps.
    http://images2.snapfish.com/23232323...73336334nu0mrj
    Thanks your comments make me think that I have an odd one hear and needs allot further research.
    Last edited by Dave J; 09-11-2011 at 06:56 PM.

  12. #12

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    The Dutch museum site's Beaumont section is located here:

    http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i005940.html

    Google translate can be used to get a good translation. Also try what fausto 4 suggested and contact them by email. The only "carbine" version they show is the Pupillen/kadettengeweer model 1878 but they are a full stocked version that is smaller than the full length army rifle. They also have smaller but unmarked rear sights and a "P" or "K" prefix to the serial number.

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    None of the ejectors are sprung in any of the versions I have. They just slide. The extractors in both versions have a little spring action in them, so they can get by the cartridge rim.

    They all use the receiver slot as shown in your photo. I looked at both versions of mine and that slot does not look quite the same as yours, appearing to have a more squared off end. The 88 ejectors look as if they have less travel than your extractor.

    The sliding extractor doesn't seem to be an improvement and in fact, the original extractor seems to not require any special attention to how you place the cartridge in the receiver, but due to the sharp edge, just forces itself past the rim, a distinct advantage in combat.

    This could have been an experiment to add an ejector to the 1871 bolt head, but when and by whom, maybe the Museum knows. Also it may have been a replacement for a broken extractor by someone who had seen an 1888 bolt.

    It is certainly an unusual and interesting variant. Be sure to post whatever you find out. I am pretty curious.

    BTW, have you tried to chamber a live round? If you do, be sure to first verify the sear's ability to hold the firing pin. One of mine, a 71, will slip 1 time out of 10 (or so) and "fire" when you close the bolt. I think these are a little dangerous in that respect.
    Last edited by fausto4; 09-11-2011 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fausto4 View Post
    None of the ejectors are sprung in any of the versions I have. They just slide. The extractors in both versions have a little spring action in them, so they can get by the cartridge rim.

    They all use the receiver slot as shown in your photo. I looked at both versions of mine and that slot does not look quite the same as yours, appearing to have a more squared off end. The 88 ejectors look as if they have less travel than your extractor.

    The sliding extractor doesn't seem to be an improvement and in fact, the original extractor seems to not require any special attention to how you place the cartridge in the receiver, but due to the sharp edge, just forces itself past the rim, a distinct advantage in combat.

    This could have been an experiment to add an ejector to the 1871 bolt head, but when and by whom, maybe the Museum knows. Also it may have been a replacement for a broken extractor by someone who had seen an 1888 bolt.

    It is certainly an unusual and interesting variant. Be sure to post whatever you find out. I am pretty curious.

    BTW, have you tried to chamber a live round? If you do, be sure to first verify the sear's ability to hold the firing pin. One of mine, a 71, will slip 1 time out of 10 (or so) and "fire" when you close the bolt. I think these are a little dangerous in that respect.
    Hi .
    Could I just say I didn't think the sliding extractor was an improvement I thought it might have been an original and the ones that are on yours were later improvements.
    In regard to loading a live round I am not a shooter just a collector so living in the UK I am unable to own live rounds. Having said that the nearest round to the correct size I have in my collection of INERT ammunition is an 11.43x50R or .43 Egyptian. I have not been able to come across a 11.35x52 which would be the correct size. But all the same if the round is placed in the breech in fount of the extractor it will not loaded because the extractor has a blunt end and can't be pushed past the bullet rim so the bullet dose have to lie in the sliding extractor. Going to have to put something together and get in touch with the Dutch museum.
    Last edited by Dave J; 09-12-2011 at 06:09 PM.

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    I do not shoot mine either. I do have 3 live rounds, but at about $8.00US each it would not be fun. There are actually several cartridge types for the Beaumont and no little confusion as to which is correct for each type, but people do shoot them successfully over here.

    You make a good point about an early extractor. The Leger Museum might be able to help with that as I understand they have some very early variants and are close to the source. Mathieu Willemsen is very friendly and helpful.

    I really find Beaumonts fascinatiing, one was the first firearm I ever owned, being given to me by a family friend who had no idea what it was. I have been trying to collect all of the variants I can discover. I have many of the major types except for the 71/79 (single shot with large sight) and the pupil/cadet models, which I have never heard of anyone owning. Some are in pretty rough shape. I recently got one modified to be a shotgun, for which there are some historical references.

    Good luck on your search for information and keep us posted.

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    I do shoot mine but with brass from www.buffaloarms.com Its the dies that are expensive. Doubt if those original rounds would go bang after all this time.

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    [QUOTE=Dave J;1859433]Hi All.
    I am a new member of gunboards and have over several years of owning my Dutch Beaumont M1871 Carbine, tried to (but unsuccessfully) find out more about it and wondering if it could have been a production piece. Or could I have the only one in existence, perhaps it could be that at some time in it's life someone has altered it for there own use?
    Measurements are: over all:38"...Barrel length:18".
    http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232fp73397>nu%3D%3A%3A96>%3A68>243>WSNRCG%3 D34%3B36358<3334nu0mrj

    Dave,

    I am also the lucky ownerof a Beaumont Carbine and posted some pictures with information, look at my profile to find the started discussion on the subject,

    Cheers,
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    And say my glory was I had such friends.
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    Hi,
    Sort of had an answer to my question 1871 Beaumont Carbine.

    " I must say that I can't give you an answer as to the exact use of your Beaumont carabine. What I can tell you is that this does not concern an official Dutch regulation model. The only Dutch Beaumont carbines were used by paramilitary units in the East Indies, but this doesn't seem to be the case since the gun no longer has its safety. I have never seen a Beaumont with this kind of extractor. That it has not been provided with an ejector is not strange, since the singleshot beaumot rifles didn't have an ejector either. I am sorry that I can't be of any more assistance."

    With regards, Mathieu Willemsen, curator of firearms Legermuseum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter96 View Post
    Here some pictures of Beumont cleaningrods:
    Nice! Is someone selling them? I would be interested in obtaining one...
    "It's impossible to grasp the boundless" - Kozma Prutkov

    "Бросая в воду камешки, смотри на круги, ими образуемые; иначе такое бросание будет пустою забавою." - Козьма Прутков

    "A який чоловiк горилку не пье - то вiн або хворий, або подлюка." - Невідомий українець

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    I too would love to have one if they are being sold.

    Vern

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    Not for sale on this moment. Prices are also here extreme for the rod's. Price i have to pay was €75.-($100.-) each.. Still i'm happy to find them.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/004ipr.jpg/

  23. #23

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    I also was able to pick up 2 of these.
    The source was the old workshop in Delft, found while demolishing the buildings a couple of years ago.
    They do not fit a Beaumont Vitalli, any idea for what Beaumont they were made ?

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    Are they too long or too short?

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    I have found mine on 2ehands.
    Also I was able to pick up a tin box with clips, still smells like petrol/diesel.
    Probably paid too much for it but on the long run worth the money, probably the last time we will see these on the market.
    Then again...
    How do Italian Vetterli Vitali clips look like ?

    Compared to the Vitali I would say about 1 mm thicker and about 0.5 cm longer.
    Also where the rods meet the head the rod is more tapered compared to the Vitali.
    I also have a rod with slotted head for a single shot Beaumont which is about 6.5 cm longer then the Vitali.
    But it came with an odd Beaumont rifle, possible trials rifle.
    Only Belgian proofs and no Dutch.

    @Peter
    What do you think of the proofmark on the rods ?
    Are they Dutch ?
    Last edited by catweazle_23; 12-18-2011 at 01:35 PM.

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    the rods on the foto have closed heads, if they are 81 cm long they are for the navy rifles , if they are 88 cm they are from the old single shot rifles ,before the vitali rebuilt , later they opend the heads of most beaumonds ,
    there where 4 lenghts of rifles and rods ,the smalest the pupil rifle,then the cadet , the infantery and the navy rifles , all bolds an receivers are identique but there where later different small modifications/experiments (extractors,boltheads/safety's) most imported the vitali magazines
    only one type of rifles had a blued barrel/receiver ,these for dutch indian army KNIL , only the navy had a sword yatagan type bayonet, the rest tube types (two types of rings 1 vise and 2 )
    info from the beaumond bible of "martens en de vries "
    greatings form the southern nederlands (flanders )
    jarmann

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    sorry guys I made a mistake with the lenght of the rods ,the navy rod is the longest approx 88 cm the infantry single or vitali is about 81cm , please also read slotted head as catweazle wrote in is article ,(could'nt find the right word)
    about the clips of peter 69 they are dutch ,I once saw italian clips ,they were made cruder but same design .
    greetings
    jarmann

  29. #29

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    @ Catweazle: I picked up one of these tin cans with stripper clips as well on an auction, but I think mine are Italian Vetterli-Vitali ones. Although they look very similar, they seem to be somewhat smaller and that would make sense with the 10.35x47R ammo.

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    "I also have a rod with slotted head for a single shot Beaumont which is about 6.5 cm longer then the Vitali.
    But it came with an odd Beaumont rifle, possible trials rifle. Only Belgian proofs and no Dutch."

    Tell us more about the "odd" Beaumont.
    Last edited by fausto4; 12-20-2011 at 10:04 PM.

  31. #31

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    @jarmann
    Thanks for the information.
    Martens / de Vries are well known authors and have written many specialized books.
    The books you are referring to are part of a series of books covering small arms of the dutch army.
    If anyone is interested :
    http://www.sipublicaties.nl/default.asp?pagina=engels
    Not sure if they are in English language though...

    I do not have these books main reason is that I collect bayonets (Dutch) and simply could not resist to pick up some rifles throughout the years.
    Hopefully coming year when I have some extra cash at hand, because there is also a lot of information about Dutch bayonets.

    So far I was able to find information on the net.
    The Dutch Army museum has dedicated pages on the Beaumont and are working hard to make their collection available through the net much has been added, pictures and info about firearms and bayonets.

    The lengths of the rods I have :
    Spare 81.0 cm
    Vitali 80.5 cm
    Odd 86.8 cm

    Some extra information on the Beaumont bayonets.
    The sword bayonet comes in 3 variations, 1st pattern, copy of Chassepot, 2nd pattern, rivet replaced with bolt and nut and 3rd pattern most commonly found, bolt and nut but modified for long leaf spring.

    Hardly known but the socket bayonet has 3 versions of the bridge.
    -Open bridge.
    -Contoured a la Swiss Vetterli sockets.
    -Something in between, can't find the right words and the poker is hiding somewhere in my vault...

    @dutchm95
    I think they are the same,
    It doesn't take much to get a distorted image, I guess the only way to be certain would be to compare dimensions.

    @fausto4
    Right now not in the mood to take it apart, will do that in the coming days.
    Description :
    Looks like Navy pattern, but does not take a bayonet, the mounting rail and "notch".
    are not present and there is no evidence of them ever being there.
    The socket bayonets do not fit, socket diameter to large.
    Diameter of barrel is the same like Chassepot.
    Bolt head cover, appears to be the same as shown in the patent drawing.
    Extractor is pinned.
    Rear sight, has graduation marks but no numbers.

    No Dutch markings, no production date.
    Only a few markings are visible on the outside, crowned N on various parts like rifle bands, butt plate.
    On receiver "de Beaumont" over "Maastricht".
    Guidance rail of bolt, one side "de Beaumont" over "Maastricht" followed by "brevete".
    Other side Belgian proofs.
    Firing pin assembly, guidance rail, one side, stylish EdB encircled, I guess a no brainer, Eduard de Beaumont.
    Stock, no cartouche, on one side between trigger and firing pin assembly, "de Beaumont" over "Maastricht".
    When the stock is removed, underneath the barrel, ELG without crown, caliber 10.2 and some more proofs, all Belgian.
    But like I said I would have to take it apart for more detailed information.

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    dear cat ,
    took a look at the navy bayonet ,marked: p.stevens maastricht ,inspectors mark :JF under crown no 2023 and B under crown
    modified from short to long leaf spring as you wrote ! 8
    the bridge is that the part that has to slip over the front sight ?,I have 2 versions the 1 and the 2 bolt , the 2 bolt variation dates from 1875 when the war departement decided to use two piece steel rings( stormring in dutch) instead of the old iron one bolt ring ,the knil took over the modification in 1877 ,the bayonet where made also in steel from that time on.
    the safety on the beaumonts dates from 1870 and was rejected in 1878 you can see that on the receivers, the holes are filled up , as usual the knil protested as well as the ministery of colonies , dicussions about the item took until 1886, the safety remained in the knil !!!!!
    I reload for both rifles ,I'm still looking for a shootable signle shot infantery one .
    greetings from flanders
    jarmann

    ps I come back later on the "fausto " rifle " jean joseph Cloes " of liege made some chassepot looking needle fire beaumonds

    t

  33. #33

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    Where do I find your navy bayonet ?

    Sounds pretty much like the one I have, comparable markings.

    Nope I am not talking about the locking rings aka "stormring", they come in 2 variations, 1 piece and 2 piece.
    I am talking about the 1st piece that slips over the front sight, I am not sure but "mortise bridge" might be more accurate.
    3 versions exist, were only the open bridge is found on 1st and 2nd pattern,
    the other 2 only on 1st pattern Beaumont socket bayonets.

    Besides from the KNIL also the navy sticked to the single shot with safety old style.

    Following links have been very helpful :
    http://militaryrifles.com/
    http://www.eddydebeaumont.nl/
    Dutch Army Museum, search engine of their database/collection :
    http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...gion/home.html
    Sadly in Dutch and many documents are in old Dutch as well...
    But for some pretty pictures :
    Beaumont rifle and bayonets :
    http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i005940.html
    M95, Mannlicher :
    http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl/...n/i003514.html
    Or try a search for "bajonet", "karabijn", "geweer", Remington, etc.

    Chassepot looking needle fire beaumonds ?
    Sounds interesting.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    (pics from Dutch Army Museum).
    Last edited by catweazle_23; 12-22-2011 at 01:04 PM.

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    dear cat

    found the navy bayonet with scabbard on a local fair her in flanders at arthur dorst from den haag stand ,you certainly now him ,its in mint condition ,but it was also a mint price !!!! but the rifle is also in excellent condition so it was worth to purchase ,saw two other ones at the monthly" wavre fair" few months ago (no scabbards) prices 600/700 eur( unknown dutch dealer )condition fair
    made a copy of the navy sling out of a suisse veterlli one ( with string fastening ,type martini henry ) no button
    the beaumont rifle is a combination of 3 systems : chassepot ,mauser-norris ,and the liege gunmaker cloes( the system of the spring in the bolt handle )is from this man , in fact beaumont did't invent nothing he was a handy dealer who made combine different systems ,according to the dutch autor philips , cloes made the first beaumont in 1867/68
    beaumond did the same as winchester did (shirts dealer ) they had the money and relations to use and let combine the knowledge of others
    this is all written in the " the good book "of martens and de vries
    greetings from the south
    met vriendelijke groeten
    jarmann

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    Jarmann, A Prettige Kerstdagen en een Gelukkig Nieuwjarr to you as well

    Oh by the way thats the extent of my Flemish

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    242

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    thank you john
    prettige feestdagen for you and your familie
    greetings from de lowlands by de sea
    jarmann

  37. #37
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    117

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    I just purchased an M1871 Beaumont which was altered exactly the same way. So there must have been a bunch of them altered like this, not a bubba job. Mine is 1879 dated, Stevens, marked with a crowned S and lots of crowned X marks. It is well used, especially the stock, which may suggest KNIL use.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave J View Post
    Hi All.
    I am a new member of gunboards and have over several years of owning my Dutch Beaumont M1871 Carbine, tried to (but unsuccessfully) find out more about it and wondering if it could have been a production piece. Or could I have the only one in existence, perhaps it could be that at some time in it's life someone has altered it for there own use?
    Measurements are: over all:38"...Barrel length:18".
    http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232fp73397>nu%3D%3A%3A96>%3A68>243>WSNRCG%3 D34%3B36358<3334nu0mrj


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