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  1. #1
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    Default 9mm load data with bullseye

    im trying to figure out a charge with bullseye for a 9mm lee tl 125gr bullet. I cant find load data though because the gun will not function unless i load it to 1.095 oal. I think i need the charge somewhere in the 3's but if any body has experiance or data i would appreciate it.

  2. #2
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    I also have a gun that will not function with longer/fatter/heavier bullets (they push into the rifling and jam). I ended up just buying .380 slugs which make a nice high velocity target load, very flat shooting. Anyway, you are recommended to seat 1.12 at 4.5 grains of BE powder for a 125 grain bullet as a rough load. I would say go down to 3.5 for your starting load, then, to offset the deep seating. Work your way back to 4.0, and I would not pass 4.25 without using some caution. 3.5 may not cycle the action, but 9mm depth adds pressure fast so better safe than sorry.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by derf 762 View Post
    i'm trying to figure out a charge with bullseye for a 9mm lee tl 125gr bullet. I cant find load data though because the gun will not function unless i load it to 1.095 alI think i need the charge somewhere in the 3's but if any body has experience or data i would appreciate it.
    First some things to consider:
    From the data I have read. I understand that the minimum OAL must be maintained when shooting max or near max loads. If this is an incorrect understanding of the published data someone please respond.

    derf,
    I ran into the same thing as you. This is another pet peeve of mine. You would think LEE the manufacture of the mold would at least list data in THEIR MANUAL for THEIR BULLET made with THEIR MOLD. Nope sorry!!!

    Anyhow, (blood pressure going back down) my Hornady manual shows a 124gr FMJ with an OAL of 1.040" and a max load that is higher than what you would want to shoot a cast bullet at.

    My load using the Lee 124gr TL Cone Tip bullet is 3gr to 4gr Bullseye with 3.5gr being my pet load. The OAL of this load is 1.050" This load reliably functions in a P89 Ruger which has a fairly heavy slide. The 3gr load worked but any limp wristing would cause failure to cycle. THIS IS FOR THE CONE TIP BULLET. I don't have the mold here so I can't give you the exact #. But considering the data given with the 124gr FMJ. The 1.050" OAL with the cast bullet of nearly the same weight, should be good to go. And of course you could go out to your 1.095" if you wanted. The round just looks a lot better to me at 1.050" but your bullet may be of another style. Lee makes at least 2 styles of the 124 TL.
    Motor
    BTW: I read Jonnin's reply after posting mine. He was dead on!! As you can see. His perceived outcome was my outcome. Let us know how it works out.

  4. #4
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    Good, when people come up with the same answer its always nice. I have a ruger p89 and it will cycle *very* weak loads. It took substantially more powder to cycle a glock cleanly, and halfway between the two worked well in everything else. For whatever that is worth.

  5. #5
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    thanks guys i actually emailed alliant after posting this they said start 3.8 to max4.3 maybe there right seems a bit iffy i think ill start at 3.5 and give that a try. somthing scares me about how quick they emailed back almost like there not looking at my oal

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    Quote Originally Posted by derf 762 View Post
    thanks guys i actually emailed alliant after posting this they said start 3.8 to max4.3 maybe there right seems a bit iffy i think ill start at 3.5 and give that a try. something scares me about how quick they emailed back almost like there not looking at my aol
    derf,
    Not surprised. I am seating shorter than your 1.095" That extra .045" may get you 4.3 max and could push up your min too. The max end is just to keep you from having leading problems. The FMJ at same weight has a higher max load and a copper jacket which will result in higher pressure. More pressure than what the lead bullet can handle. The reason for the low end is to have reliable function (within reason of course). With some powders it is dangerous to go below the min charge. Bullseye is not one of those powders.
    One thing I didn't see here and just assumed. (Which is not a good thing to do.) We are talking about 9x19 caliber here, correct??? If so I think your choice of 3.5gr Bullseye to start is a good one. The reason I went to 1.050" OAL is it puts the entire bearing surface of the bullet in the case thus preventing any interference with the bullet and the leading edge of the rifling. This is really not a problem with the Ruger because it has a generous lead in but other pistols do not. We have had problems with the XD's and their short lead in but this was a 45 auto. I don't know if their 9mms are the same way.
    Motor

  7. #7
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    2 things:

    1.- fit an empty case with a bullet and find at what OAL you can get the "cartrige" to drop fully into the chamber, headspacing on the mouth properly. This is done with the barrel removed usually. This will vary greatly by bullet style and shape.
    I laod and shoot far more .45 Auto than I do 9mmP, but I USED TO run a 9mmP 122gr Truncated Cone that, to chamber properly, HAD to be seated to 1.00, which was right at the shoulder of the cone.
    Gun HATED IT.
    I load and shoot 2 perfectly running loads loaded to near maximum, 1.165", gun loves it. One is a 145gr LRN, the other is a 115gr JHP. Both chamber properly due to ogive shape. This 9mm is NOT good with TC's, great with RN-style profiles (incl. JHP).
    The OAL you need to run is the OAL you gun will tolerate, THEN you figure out how this affects your load.
    Slightly deeper will increase pressure, not nearly as quick and high as .40 Smith does, but, it does. Longer lowers pressure.

    Thus, if you have a recipe at OAL 1.XXX, and you have to run 1.XY0, you figure out how to alter the powder charge to deal with this.
    Small batches is your friend. Much better to dismantle 5 or 10 or 20 than 50 or 100.

    2.- Bullseye.
    I do not use Bullseye, and I am no hater, it is a good powder. DO WHATEVER YOU MUST DO, IN ORDER TO ABSOLUTELY INSURE YOU NEVER, EVER, AT ANY TIME, EVER, GET 2 POWDER CHARGES IN THE SAME CASE.
    Now, this is a rule for all loadings, BUT, it is sooooo easy to do AND TO MISS CATCHING when using Bullseye.

    A person can very easilly get 8 gr of Be into a .45 Auto case instead of the 4 they intend, MISS IT (if not looking EXTREMELY closely), and blow a gun up sky high. No way in the world could I 2x my 7gr Red Dot loading. 14gr goes over the top of the case.
    As small as 9mm cases, it's better, but not by any means impossible.

    Almost every handgun you see blown the top off of, usually turns out to be a 2x (or a 3x) accidental Bullseye load.

    My primary "safety measure" is to, when I can, use a powder that aproximately 1/2-fills the case when the charge is what I want. Very HARD to miss a case being brim-full, or overflowed, and a warning that I screwed up.
    4gr of Unique (an example) is 50% full, 8gr is brim full, 9mmPara. case. 4gr is a reasonable load, 8 is nowhere close.

    Not telling you not to use Be, not telling you to do what I do, just telling you of a hazzard some people get lax of and wanting you to be safe.

    best of luck to you.

  8. #8
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    What Stuffer said but add my recent experience with this very bullet and BE powder in 9mm. The powder
    is a fast burning powder and very finicky for 9mm. I gave up on it and am finally getting good results with
    WW 231 (aka HP 38). I tried Unique and Blue Dot and found no love with either over WW231.

    Go with Alliant given data but if are using BE, but note: you may get leading after 4.0 grains like I did.

    Crimp; Take all the crimp out and then change your die so you barely... a whisper of a crimp and I mean hairlike
    or you will swage your bullet down and defeat your accuracy as your bullet will be under bore size and wobble down
    the bore giving crap accuracy and some lead streaking.

    Motor just emailed me and asked if I read that fine line about light crimp in Hornady manual. I go on record to say I
    failed to note that and I spent a ton of components, time and flogging myself about accuracy issues only because I
    did not catch and comply with that one sentence. I discovered last week this light crimp solution but like said: many
    months of chasing other errors that were not errors !

    Perhaps others will not repeat my sins !

    I wish Motor had emailed me 3 months ago !!!!!

    OAL of 9mm using this bullet: the chambers of 9mm pistols are all over the map in
    size so you just got to test and find the right OAL for yourself.

  9. #9
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    The only advantage in using BE for 9mm would be in a short barrel, such as the Ruger LC9, and then with a jacketed bullet. I've found that the faster burning powders cause more leading with cast bullets than do the slower burning powders.

    I used to cast the Lyman conical 121 Gr. bullet & it performed nicely with up to 6 gr. Unique.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by derf762 View Post
    im trying to figure out a charge with bullseye for a 9mm lee tl 125gr bullet. I cant find load data though because the gun will not function unless i load it to 1.095 oal. I think i need the charge somewhere in the 3's but if any body has experiance or data i would appreciate it.
    Steve's pages shows Red Dot for 125s in the 9x19 at 3.2 grains up to 4.6 Max.

    http://stevespages.com/355p_4_124.html

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by derf762 View Post
    im trying to figure out a charge with bullseye for a 9mm lee tl 125gr bullet. I cant find load data though because the gun will not function unless i load it to 1.095 oal. I think i need the charge somewhere in the 3's but if any body has experiance or data i would appreciate it.
    What mold are you using?
    If a man has nothing greater to believe in than himself, he is a very lonely man.

    I reckon so. I guess we all died a little in that damn war.

    And in that time when men decide and feel safe to call the war insane, take one moment to embrace those gentle heroes you left behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by MEJ1990TM View Post
    Well, all right. Maybe just this once.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ shooter View Post
    The only advantage in using BE for 9mm would be in a short barrel, such as the Ruger LC9, and then with a jacketed bullet. I've found that the faster burning powders cause more leading with cast bullets than do the slower burning powders.

    I used to cast the Lyman conical 121 Gr. bullet & it performed nicely with up to 6 gr. Unique.
    I get good results using Bullseye but I do have to cast my bullets in the 15-16 bhn range to get it. I have loads in my file for Unique too. I use the BE 1) because it works and 2) because it uses less. However if I can get away with shooting a bullet that needs less linotype it may be worth it to shoot the Unique. I'll have to give it a try. Does anybody have actual bullet hardness data that works with the Unique?
    Motor

  13. #13
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    For crimping, I use the same crimp I use on .45 Auto.

    Measure the case arround the bullet with a pair of calipers.

    Crimp the mouth down 3-5 thousandths smaller, no more is needed, just wasted effort.
    .003" to .005" smaller than the side of the case with the bullet in it.

    I ran Power Pistol in my lighter 9mm load (122gr). The powder was fine, the OAL was unacceptable.
    My 115gr HP load uses Vhitavouri N-340.
    My 145gr load uses Longshot (I believe (been a while, would have to go check a box)).

  14. #14
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    Crimp the mouth down 3-5 thousandths smaller, no more is needed, just wasted effort.
    .003" to .005" smaller than the side of the case with the bullet in it.


    Thanks Stuffer, I will use that as SOP from now on. Its posted to my reloading logs
    in RED !.

    By the way: is there any magic to the Vhit powder that off sets the high cost? Just wondering.

  15. #15
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    ran some today at the range with the 1.095 and 3.6 grains of bullseye they worked great in my sig 226 they cycled 100% but they did feel a little week i may try droping to 1.050 to crimp in the groove and maybe get a little more pressure i also got no leading with wheel weight alloy wich is funny because i used to use much harder black bullets and would get leading from a mid range load the only thing i can think of is maybe at the slow speeds the softer alloy and bigger bullet that i drop is the key i may have to try unique when i get anthor gun probably in 40 until then i dont think i can justfy 2 powders

  16. #16
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    That is a mild target load. That is why I like it. I shoot 3.5gr at 1.050" AOL. Don't be fooled though. It will spin my Birchwood Casey spinner about 4 times with a good hit at 25 yards and it's not a light weight spinner. It's made to handle 44 mag.
    I run into the hard bullet thing with my 41 mag. They lead the barrel at low target like velocities but when loaded with W-296 they do not. The low pressure load must not upset the bullet enough to fill the rifling.
    Motor

  17. #17
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    For decades, I've used Unique with a variety of 9mm bullets & have had fair results. During the primer/powder/reloading components & ammo crisis of last year, Titegroup emerged as a good substitute when I couldn't get any WW231 or Unique. 3.8 gr. TG with Berrys HBFP & it makes a great target load & ends up I like it better than my ol' buddy Unique (cleaner, too).

    For more economical reloading BE or WW231 still can't be beat.

  18. #18
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    My last batch of 9mm lee tl 125gr bullets got placed on top of 3.9grs. bullseye.
    Worked great.
    And I say, anyone who refuses to own a gun or learn to use a gun or allow others to own and learn to use a gun for the protection of life, is mentally ill, or unbalanced. Because they have somehow suppressed the natural survival instincts normal humans are equipped with.

  19. #19
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    3.9 grs -4.0 grs of BE is what my powder measure was tossing and under a Lee RN 125 gr cast bullet, this load did not lead but did lead at 4.1 to 4.2 grains of BE with bullet sized at .356. At .357 sizing it was a little less leading. Neither of these loads was accurate but that is probably due to my bore demanding a .358 bullet. BE burn rate is fast so I left this powder and went to WW 231 which meters better and I am gaining better accuracy.

    I mention this to caution that you might be just right at 3.9 gr of BE and leave it there if your accuracy with BE is where you like it. If you decide to go higher than 3.9, leading may creep into the picture so heads up.

    Barrels demand different things so my comments may reflect only my Taurus barrel. I got no leading with High Power but I got no great accuracy either at 4.1 gr BE with same bullet. How a bullet fits your bore often determines if leading happens and if accuracy happens.

    Good Luck.

  20. #20
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    " i may try droping to 1.050 to crimp in the groove"

    Remember that 9mm and many other Auto Pistol rounds headspace on the case MOUTH.... If you "crimp in the groove" (bullet groove?) you may well crimp too much for accuracy AND proper headspace/ignition.

    I seat and 'crimp' my 9mm loads now in my 9x18mm Makarov die. It will remove any "bell" on the case that I make to seat a bullet but as it is slightly oversize, it will NOT over crimp the case onto the bullets.
    "Saigon Tea, 60 P, you no buy you di di DI!"

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ammolab View Post
    " i may try dropping to 1.050 to crimp in the groove"

    Remember that 9mm and many other Auto Pistol rounds headspace on the case MOUTH.... If you "crimp in the groove" (bullet groove?) you may well crimp too much for accuracy AND proper headspace/ignition.

    I seat and 'crimp' my 9mm loads now in my 9x18mm Makarov die. It will remove any "bell" on the case that I make to seat a bullet but as it is slightly oversize, it will NOT over crimp the case onto the bullets.
    I saw that too and agree with ammolab. Even the manuals say to crimp very lightly. You definitely don't want the crimp rolling into a crimp groove. I don't think you could do it anyway with a taper crimp die. But you can crimp too much with the taper crimp die.
    With the amount of seating pressure you get when loading the 9x19 I believe if you crimped it just enough to remove the bell mouth it would be all you needed to do. As others have stated here though, I usually give mine about a .002" crimp. Which is next to nothing.
    Motor

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