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  1. #1
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    Default Got my new "Diexie"(Euroarms) Whitworth today!

    Hello all,
    Got my new "Dixie" Whitworth (Euroarms) and pack of 50 bullets that I ordered from DGW just now. The gun is absolutely beautiful; flawless wood, metal, and metal to wood fit, etc.. Got the oiled type stock, not that shiny crap that some have. Beautiful checkering, etc.. And yes, nice looking Hexagonal bore. A beautiful weapon actually!

    BUT, as far as the bullets go, which are great looking bullets, the hex bullets I ordered with it do not fit. Too big. Either the bullets are too big or the bore is too small. I heard one time that the "Dixie" model's bore was a hair smaller than the PH. I doubted what I had heard because I could not imagine a well known company like Euroarms making a supposedly exact repro would have difference in the bore. Heck, if your making a repro of something that includes the bore! But I reckon it is possible now.

    DGW offers a sizing die that you squeeze in vice to size the Whitworth hex bullets to the correct size and hex configuration. It is $150.00 bucks. I might order it, but now I am wondering what if the ones it produces do not fit? Dang!! Of all the luck! And no proper moulds out there I can find or that I can afford either. I have boxed it back up and am even thinking of sending it back and get me the PH 3 band Enfield, which is the same price as the Dixie Whitworth. Not sure what to do.

    Just thought I would let y'all know what I thought about Dixie's Whitworth!
    Later,
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  2. #2
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    Default

    Nice to know that the gun itself is as good as you were led to believe - never having seen one in the tin, I can only imagine. However, you will recall what was pointed out to you in previous posts about the bullets...

    I only speak and write from personal experience.

    tac
    Whitworth #888
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  3. #3
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    Default

    Yep, I was told, that is true. I am still debating whether I should keep it and get that sizing die or not or just send it back and tell them to send me the PH 3 band Enfield for the same price.
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  4. #4
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    Default

    Yep, I just wish I knew someone who had the real, proper sized Whitworth bullets that could let me try one to see if it is my bore or what.
    D
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  5. #5
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    Default

    Measuring the only example of a real, proper-sized Whitworth bullet in my possession shows an across-flats measurement of .450". It is a very close fit in my P-H Whitworth - no paper patch, just the nekkid bullet.

    The Polisar bullets also have this precise measurement - but sadly, they are no longer made.

    If you e-mail me I'll send you a couple or three sample bullets to try, but measuring YOUR bore has the be the easiest thing imaginable - after all, it IS a hexagon with opposing flats, not an odd-groove rifled bore. Even so, let me know what it is and I'll see if I have anything that fits your bore.

    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  6. #6

    Default

    If I were you, I would keep it as you seem to be satisfied with it so far. The bullets cast by any given mold will need sizing to fit your bore for target accuracy. You will need the sizing die to get the bullets to fit so go on and order it. BUT.... (and it is a big one) be sure that the die will size the bullets to the proper measurement to fit your bore - the bullet should be just slightly smaller than the bore. Find the exact bore size and talk to Dixie to make sure that the sizer is correct. Tac can make recommendations as to what the correct sizer diameter should be but I will guess that it should be about .002 in. smaller than the bore.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Hello all,
    Thanks for the input. Tacfoly, the flats are not true flats, instead of sho'nuff angles it is sort of slightly rounded between flats. But the best I could tell it is just shy of a 1/4" on the flats. What ever tht little mark before the 1/4" mark is, or sort of between the two. Hard to tell.
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  8. #8
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Edelen View Post
    Hello all,
    Thanks for the input. Tacfoly, the flats are not true flats, instead of sho'nuff angles it is sort of slightly rounded between flats. But the best I could tell it is just shy of a 1/4" on the flats. What ever tht little mark before the 1/4" mark is, or sort of between the two. Hard to tell.
    Dave
    Sir - 'across the flats' means measuring from one flat side to the opposite flat side, not the length of the flats. Imagine the bore as a hexagonal nut like a wheel lug - measure across from one side to the opposite side - THAT is what 'across the flats' means.

    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  9. #9
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    Default

    Hey Tac, by now you probably think I am a big dummy. I just measured from flat to flat and it was 7/16" with the little marks on the tape measure dead on the edge of each flat.
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  10. #10
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    Default

    I didn't say this in my initial post of this thread describing it. But the barrel is sort of thick. I can't remember if my old Armi Sport Enfield 3 bander was as heavy as this or not.
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  11. #11
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    Default

    Those DGW hex bullets are, according to the box, 580grns, and are .448 in diameter. My gun is about 7/16" flat to flat, these bullets are a tad bigger. They slightly narrow near the base similar to boat-tails and are pretty much 7/16" across the base, but where the flats are on the bullet is a hair wider. I measured the length and they are a hair under 1 3/8" long.
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  12. #12
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    Default

    Well, if it is truly 7/16" EXACTLY (which I doubt, it's just not accurate enough to tell with a tape), that would be .4375". If you're going to be doing precision shooting of any kind, you need to get a decent pair of digital calipers. Most models have probes designed for measuring inside things (like rifle barrels), so this will allow for PRECISE measurment flat-to-flat.

    I'm no Whitworth aficionado, but I know enough to tell you that exact sizing is possibly even more important in a hexagonal bore than standard rifling. Buy those calipers (you're gonna need 'em), and as others have said, get hold of DGW, and they will tell you what that resizing die will size to, down to the thousandth.

    PSY
    "Proclaim this among the nations: Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, 'I am strong!'" Joel 3:9-10

  13. #13
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    Default

    Thanks Psychocontractorguy. I will call them tomorrow. I am thinking of just sending it back and telling them to exchange it for a regular 3 band Enfield and send me the difference back. Just too muchy trouble to worry with theis Whitworth, dixie's bullets don't fit, no hex moulds out there I can afford, etc, etc.. I think I will just send it back to morrow.
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  14. #14
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    David - the barrel seems thicker because the hole is a lot smaller! The usual calibre is .58", of course.

    Calibres are also measured in decimal inches, rather than fractions - calipers use decimal sizing....never occurred to me to use a tape measure...

    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  15. #15
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    Default

    Thanks again y'all. I measured it with a clear ruler I found with MM on one side and the best I can tell it was 11mm from flat to flat. But there is a gunshop down the road with a gunsmith on duty and I will take it to him. I will let you know.
    Thanks,
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  16. #16
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    Default Got the measurement of flat to flat!

    Hello again,
    I just got back from a gunstore and got them to measure from flat to flat with their caliper thing and it was .0452. Is that good, or normal, or do the originals and PH's have a different measurement? That box of bullets from DGW said they were .448. DGW lied or were grossly mistaken because they won't even go into my muzzle. So, now that we got the measurement from flat to flat, what y'all reckon?
    Thanks,
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  17. #17
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Edelen View Post
    Hello again,
    I just got back from a gunstore and got them to measure from flat to flat with their caliper thing and it was .0452. Is that good, or normal, or do the originals and PH's have a different measurement? That box of bullets from DGW said they were .448. DGW lied or were grossly mistaken because they won't even go into my muzzle. So, now that we got the measurement from flat to flat, what y'all reckon?
    Thanks,
    Dave
    Well, Sir - if they were measured at .452" then they are too big by an amount large enuff to matter. I reckon that the DGW called them a nominal .448". The P-H bore is .451", BTW, which is why it's called the .451" Whitworth.

    Now, for reasons I can't explain, all the emails you sent me went straight to mrs tac's email address - no matter, I'll put a few bullets in the mail for you tomorrow, including a round Lyman bullet -the one I told you we [most of us] shoot over here.

    I reckon that after you see the neat little hexagonal holes these formerly round bullets make in the target you'll want to keep the Whitworth.

    BTW - .450 is the same as .45, as in .45 Colt. It's called a decimal inch dimension and is the way that all technical drawings are done these days. Whitworth was the first person to devise a method of measuring a millionth of an inch, and was the inventor of the screw-thread micrometer - a measuring device that measures in tenths, hundredths and thousandth of an inch. If you look at the barrel of a one inch micrometer, you'll notice that each full rotation of the thimble opens or closes the anvil by one tenth of an inch - the graduations on the thimble are in tenths of a tenth of an inch - a thousandth of an inch.

    So .45 is four tenths and five hundredths of an inch, just like .58 is five tenths and eight hundredths of an inch - decimal inches for those nations that still use inches.

    Best

    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  18. #18
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    Default

    Hey Tac,
    It was my rifle that was measured flat to flat at .0452, not the bullets DGW sent me. They're even bigger, just enough so as not to go in my bore. . The box they came in said they were .448 but that is impossbile it seems since they would not fit in my muzzle.

    Thanks for the bullets. I can't wait to they get here and I will be glad to reimburse you. I have regular .45 molds, one for my Colt .45 pistol (250 grns) and the other is like a .457 405grn for a .45-70govt, but they are not the right weight, etc.. But now that I know my bores size flat to flat, then now I will order that sizing die that says

    Here is what DGW said about their sizing die I am going to order: "Made specifically for the .451 Whitworth bore and produces a bullet to slip fit with the proper twist. Place any .50 caliber soft lead bullet between the two halves of the die, place the die in a vise and clamp and squeeze until the two halves fit tightly together. Remove, tap the die to break the “seal” and remove the swaged Whitworth bullet. The 1 ½” square die is made of machined tool steel."

    Later,
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  19. #19
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    Default

    Yes, I, too, have the DGW catalogue... The rifle sounds about right anyhow, if that's what it measured, bearing in mind the so-called manufacturing 'creep' that enters into builds based on 150-year-old prototypes. .452 is not a million miles away from being right on the nail - I wouldn't kill them for a thousandth of an inch.

    Please don't send money - 'snot necessary. I don't recall mentioning it, to tell the truth.

    In any case, I won't be giving you a return address to send it to!

    Best

    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  20. #20
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    Default

    Thank you so much Tac! I will let you know how it goes.
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

  21. #21
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    Dave - I've just got back from the post office - sent you four sample bullets -

    1. A Lyman unsized - Mould is #452131b - you SHOULD have gotten a push-through sizing die to .451" with your gun - maybe it's only P-H that did that, could be wrong.

    2. A Polisar bullet - exact size for the P-H Whitworth - you CAN paper patch it with a bluey - an airmail letter we use in the military - I have the correct shape template, although DGW actually make a reasonable version.

    3. A Rigby .448 patched round bullet.

    4. A Rigby .452 patched round patched bullet.

    ALL of these shoot VERY well in my P-H. The lubricant is a 50/50 mix of beeswax and Neet's Foot oil. It makes an emusion that you just dip the wrapped or nekkid bullet into and let it set. The Lyman multi-groove bullet likes Alox.

    Loads of luck! [that's a pun, BTW]

    tac
    I am an international Gunboards patron

  22. #22
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    Default

    Hey Tac,
    What type powder should I use in my Whitworth, 2x or 3x? I use 3x in cap and ball pistols when I have them. In an old article it says: INSTRUCTIONS FOR LOADING & CLEANING

    "THE
    WHITWORTH PATENT MILITARY RIFLE

    CHARGE
    The charge is 2½ drachms, or 70 grains, of No. 6 size powder of the best quality. It should be accurately weighed."

    What in the world is # 6 powder?
    Dave
    One Shot, One Kill; Simple as that!

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