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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    San Antonio, Texas
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    Default How to ID full auto bolt carriers?

    I read a .PDF online about converting semi-automatic AK-47's to full auto, and it mentioned among other things, that semi-automatic AK-47's imported from some countries come with a bolt carrier that apparently supports conversion to full-auto fire (albeit through some difference in shape or design). This was the list it provided:

    Quote Originally Posted by Royi "Uncle Ro" Eltink View Post
    But you may want to take a look at the following list:
    - All Galil .223 rifles gave a semi-auto carrier.
    - Almost all Valmet rifles have a full-auto carrier.
    - All MAADI rifles have a full-auto carrier.
    - All Hungarian have a full-auto carrier.
    - All Yugoslave rifles have a semi-auto bolt carrier.
    - All Chinese rifles have a semi-auto carrier.
    - All South-African rifles have a full-auto carrier.
    - All Galil .308 rifles cannot be converted using the AK47 full-auto replacement part sets.
    Discounting the fact that my rifle was likely assembled from a Romanian parts kit (Romanian rifles practically ooze out of the woodwork it seems like), how do I determine whether or not it originally came from a full-auto rifle? Romanian AK-47's are conspicuously absent from that list, which makes me curious to know what they're typically outfitted with. My rifle itself, was an AK-47 with a milled steel receiver purchased in 2008-2009 from a rifle-maker/assembler here in the U.S. The receiver (and barrel, I'm guessing) were made in-house, but they never said where the other parts used to build the rifle came from, or what type they were. On a side note, how do I tell where my parts came from period? None of them were marked with any country ID's that I could see.

    I'm going to guess that I already know the answer to my question, but, about 6 months after I bought this rifle, I got a phone call from the company sales rep, asking me to do perform a quick functionality test -- up to 3 (13? I can't remember) rifles from the same batch mine came from, were built and sold with defective or faulty sears. They were calling to check and see if my rifle per chance had this mechanical failure, and it was then I learned that when sears fail, your gun (quite inevitably) becomes a lead-spewing fire hose. Does the possibility of my gun going full auto if the sear ever breaks mean it has a full-auto bolt carrier, or does that happen to all semi-automatics?

    PS: My research into this subject is being done purely for scientific purposes. I have no intention of getting all my guns taken away because I couldn't wait until I could buy an automatic legally.
    *slurps his slushie*

    I'm looking for Mosin-Nagant bayonet #72697, and Yugoslavian M48 Bayonet/Scabbard #T75239; I have M48 bayonet #65837 and Scabbard #29866 to trade. Cash bounty!

  2. #2

    Default

    An AK converted to FA has to have several modifications and extra parts that are just not in a semi design. Regardless of the bolt carrier, an auto sear must be installed in the receiver that is tripped by the bolt carrier to effect full auto fire. The auto sear trip lever is integral with the auto sear and a cutout in the front top end of the righthand rail must be cut for the lever to protrude into the path of the bolt carrier.
    Since the AK fires from a closed bolt, it might possible for the semi sear or other parts of the fire control group to wear and potentially
    fire a duble tap, but it is not a condition that is often reported given the design of the parts and their durabililty. An inspection of the fire
    control parts of a semi AK would reveal any serious wear or broken parts which can easily be replaced.
    FA fire can be created in other ways that have nothing to do with substandard or worn parts, however, with the the simplest being bump
    firing.
    FWIW

    Bob Naess CII

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
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    Default

    I was already aware of the necessity for full-auto parts, and the modifications to the receiver in order to make it function properly. In fact, I see them going for sale for as little as $25 on gun broker (what's the deal with that, anyway? Can FAC parts really be that easy to get? I could swear you had to have a class III license to get them), and just the other day I saw some for sale here on the trader for $10.

    As for the relief cuts, they sound like they'd be harder to properly machine. Back to my original question though: How do you ID a full-auto bolt carrier, and what sets it apart from a semi-auto only, in terms of construction?
    *slurps his slushie*

    I'm looking for Mosin-Nagant bayonet #72697, and Yugoslavian M48 Bayonet/Scabbard #T75239; I have M48 bayonet #65837 and Scabbard #29866 to trade. Cash bounty!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Winfield, KS
    Posts
    380

    Default

    On a full auto carrier, there is a small tab, for lack of a better term, that sticks down from the lower right hand side towards the rear. This tab trip the auto sear in a full auto. On a semi auto, the tab is either milled off or it was never put on to begin with. It is pretty obvius when you see them side by side.

    Here is a pic I found online

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The semi auto is on top and the full auto is on the bottom. Note the red arrow pointing to the tab.
    Semper Fi
    C/1/3 98-02
    0331

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    14,008

    Default

    AK's have something called bolt bounce. The tab prevents the rifle from firing untill the breech is fully locked. ONLY installing the sear could allow the rifle to fire before that with nasty results.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Well, I just disassembled my AK-47 ( 'cause handling my guns is the first thing I do after waking up every morning :P ) and inspected my bolt carrier. The results are in, and I'm not gonna lie: Having a full-auto capable bolt carrier group (as useless to me as it is) is badass2.



    Now that my novelty interest in this gun has been sufficiently sent to the moon, I pose a new question: Where is the relief cut usually located on the top rail, and does my rifle have it?





    The .PDF I was reading that started this whole brouhaha, stated that an extra hole had to be drilled in a receiver as well to allow for another part to fit inside (I think) too. There were only three holes pictured (a 4th was present, but it was pretty big and a lot farther forward than logically possible to be related to a trigger group; I also determined it must have been a design difference between my milled and the article's stamped-steel reciever'd rifles), and I see three holes on my rifle:





    As sweet as having a Full Auto Capable bolt carrier is, it makes me a little nervous too. Agreed, AK-47 internals are probably very hard to break. But with the presence of this tab, doesn't that mean my rifle could empty the whole magazine in the event of a sear failure?

    * * * * *

    Separate question: I hear sometimes, that when sears fail rifles go in to one of 2 fully automatic states -- The one where depressing the trigger results in a burst of automatic fire, and another one, where depressing the trigger results in the gun firing until the magazine is empty, even if someone were to let go of the trigger. What, if applicable, is the difference in mechanical part failures?
    *slurps his slushie*

    I'm looking for Mosin-Nagant bayonet #72697, and Yugoslavian M48 Bayonet/Scabbard #T75239; I have M48 bayonet #65837 and Scabbard #29866 to trade. Cash bounty!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    1,334

    Default

    The presence of the trip surface on the bolt carrier means absolutely nothing as regards to full auto anything. Without the trip sear in place the carrier has no effect on anything. Your rail does not have the opening for the trip sear, your receiver does not have the hole for the trip sear and probably the rail is not relieved for the trip sear, that area isn't visible in any of the pics. What this means is that there is no more danger of your rifle going full auto than there is of any other semi doing so.
    No need to be nervous about any of it.....it won't happen.

    Frank

  8. #8

    Default

    >Back to my original question though: How do you ID a full-auto bolt carrier, and what sets it apart from a semi-auto only, in terms of construction?<

    Well, as I said, without the auto sear and required pivot holes in the receiver, the slot in the upper rail and a couple other parts, the bolt carrier is irrelevant and there really is no way it can run full
    auto, aside from an occasional accidental bump fire. Forget about it.

    Bob Naess CII

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Didn't look romy at all from your pictures. The bolt carrier, the wood...seems chinese/yugo/something else to me. I've got two romanian's in the safe and neither look that nice. Sar1, and sar2
    Thank you gunboards member for selling me a non-working ak74 (without my knowledge). I now know an ak can be fixed with a screwdriver, hammer, metal working block, and 12 dollars in parts. :D

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    342

    Default

    The bolt carrier, I have no idea where it came from... But the stock is Bulgarian in origin, IIRC. However, I've never seen a Bulgarian AK-47; does this match a Bulgarian rifle?
    *slurps his slushie*

    I'm looking for Mosin-Nagant bayonet #72697, and Yugoslavian M48 Bayonet/Scabbard #T75239; I have M48 bayonet #65837 and Scabbard #29866 to trade. Cash bounty!

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