Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado
    Posts
    529

    Default Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1909

    I would like to recreate for occassional use in my Colt Model of 1909 revolver the "Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .45, Model of 1909". Does anyone know of a rimmed cartridge case I could make into an exact duplicate of the Model of 1090 case? The rim diameter is what I am concerned with in my recreation.
    The Wizard
    Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable
    Necat Omnes! Deus Suos Agnoscet.
    The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Posts
    6,628

    Default

    Are you asking about .45 long Colt ammo? That is pretty common ammo, shouldn't be hard to find, and is readily available online. The original .45 Colt service ammo is .45 Long Colt, called that now to avoid confusion with 45 Schofield aka 45 short Colt ,and 45 ACP .
    This post has been edited , vetted, and archived by the NSA.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado
    Posts
    529

    Default

    AMMOSGT.

    Not the .45 Colt and not the .45 S&W (Schofied) but CARTRIDGE, BALL, CALIBER .45, MODEL OF 1909. Two similar cartridges but different.
    The Wizard
    Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable
    Necat Omnes! Deus Suos Agnoscet.
    The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem.

  4. #4
    Clyde's Avatar
    Clyde is offline Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    55,688

    Default

    Case dimensions are the same as .45 Colt (a/k/a .45 Long Colt), but rim is of greater diameter (but apparently that same thin thickness) than that found on the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield and .45 Government of the Indian War era. I can't find any current round that would serve as a parent for the M-1909.

    Best guess - find some 1909 ammo, it is around. It does look like you could PROBABLY convert 8x50R Siamese Mauser, but be a considerable job. Have to cut the case at the proper length and run it through .45 Colt dies to straighten the case wall, then reduce the rim tot he correct diameter and possibly thin it. I don't know where to find any 8x50R Siamese Mauser cases.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

  5. #5

    Default

    Iím no expert on this but as I understand it, Clyde has it right. The pistol was chambered for the 45 Colt cartridge but the Army had a few problems with the rim of an occasional cartridge jumping the extractor star so they had the Frankfort Arsenal design a case with just a slightly larger rim to aid in extraction. All other dimensions were the same.

    I would just stick to using 45 Colt brass, but if you really want to get a larger rim you might try cutting down .410 all brass shotgun hulls. I use them for making special shot loads for my revolvers. The rim is about .015Ē larger than a standard 45 Colt.

    Please let us know how you make out.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    935

    Default

    The 45 Colt had a smaller rim so that they would fit the Single action cylinder. As I understand that was one of the
    reasons nobody chambered a rifle for that cartridge. Yes I know you can buy them now.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    BumbFK
    Posts
    1,721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    The 45 Colt had a smaller rim so that they would fit the Single action cylinder. As I understand that was one of the
    reasons nobody chambered a rifle for that cartridge. Yes I know you can buy them now.
    Chambering rifles for straight case pistol rounds in rifles has never been popular until Cowboy Action Shooting. They didn't chamber rifles for straigh case blackpowder rounds because at the relatively low pressures they didn't seal well, blowing gas and crud back into the action and they didn't feed well in lever guns. It was popular to rebarrel Winchester 92s to 44 Magnum in the '50s thru '60s but, was more of a specialty item or fad and not a factory item.
    The correct name is "45 Colt". "Long" was added through popular usage, it has been theorized, to differentiate it from the 45 Schofield and 45 Government (or "Army"). There never was a "45 Long Colt" cartridge.
    Last edited by Ordtech; 10-21-2011 at 01:23 AM.
    How many psi in a CUP?

  8. #8
    Clyde's Avatar
    Clyde is offline Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    55,688

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ordtech View Post
    Chambering rifles for straight case pistol rounds in rifles has never been popular until Cowboy Action Shooting. They didn't chamber rifles for straigh case blackpowder rounds because at the relatively low pressures they didn't seal well, blowing gas and crud back into the action and they didn't feed well in lever guns. It was popular to rebarrel Winchester 92s to 44 Magnum in the '50s thru '60s but, was more of a specialty item or fad and not a factory item.
    The correct name is "45 Colt". "Long" was added through popular usage, it has been theorized, to differentiate it from the 45 Schofield and 45 Government (or "Army"). There never was a "45 Long Colt" cartridge.
    Actually, a lot of rifles were chambered for BP rounds that included some straight-cased rounds in the pistol class in the old days (.44 Henry RF, for one prominent example).
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    BumbFK
    Posts
    1,721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde View Post
    Actually, a lot of rifles were chambered for BP rounds that included some straight-cased rounds in the pistol class in the old days (.44 Henry RF, for one prominent example).
    Technically, the Henry RF was a rifle cartridge, but I should have qualified that my statement was about Centerfire. Straight cased rimfire pistol cartridges were pretty much dropped by the major rifle and revolver manufactures by the 1870s. They were gone from Winchester with the coming of the 1873 rifle. You mostly found them in single shots after that as rook rifles, pest rifles, kids rifles, cane guns and odd revolvers. Even the odd tube primer sticking off to the side hung on for a while in revolvers in Europe. Henry RF cartridges were manufactured into the 20th century.
    How many psi in a CUP?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    935

    Default

    Elmer Keith told of seeing ammo boxes marked " 45 long colt". Too bad he is not still alive you
    could correct him.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    935

    Default

    Elmer Keith told of seeing ammo boxes marked " 45 long colt". Too bad he is not still alive you
    could correct him. By the way 44/40 chambers were cut straight to prevent case back up.
    Fired cases had almost no neck left.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    935

    Default

    Elmer Keith told of seeing ammo boxes marked " 45 long colt". Too bad he is not still alive you
    could correct him. By the way 44/40 revolver chambers were cut straight to prevent case back up.
    Fired cases had almost no neck left.

  13. #13
    Clyde's Avatar
    Clyde is offline Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    55,688

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkins View Post
    Elmer Keith told of seeing ammo boxes marked " 45 long colt". Too bad he is not still alive you
    could correct him. By the way 44/40 revolver chambers were cut straight to prevent case back up.
    Fired cases had almost no neck left.
    I've seen boxes amrked .45 Long Colt as well. But that doesn't appear to be the correct, "Official", designation.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

  14. #14

    Default

    If you want to get anal about it the 44-40 is properly called the 44 WCF for Winchester Center Fire. When Colt started to make pistols in that caliber to go with the then new 73 Winchesters rifles that were introduced in this caliber, they didnít like putting the WCF on their pistols. So they started calling it the 44-40. That is why even today you still find 44-40 brass listed with the rifle brass in reloading supplies, not with the pistol brass.

    Me, I frequently refer to 45 Colt as 45 Long Colt.

    As a side note, the 44-40 rifles foul much less than the 45 Colt rifles when loading them with black powder because the brass cases in 44-40 are much thinner than the brass in the 45 Colt. This thinner brass expands faster to seal the chamber better, but is also responsible for the reputation that 44-40 has among some shooters for being harder to reload as damaging cases is easier.

  15. #15
    Clyde's Avatar
    Clyde is offline Gold Bullet Member and Noted Curmudgeon
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    East Texas
    Posts
    55,688

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Z View Post
    If you want to get anal about it the 44-40 is properly called the 44 WCF for Winchester Center Fire. When Colt started to make pistols in that caliber to go with the then new 73 Winchesters rifles that were introduced in this caliber, they didn’t like putting the WCF on their pistols. So they started calling it the 44-40. That is why even today you still find 44-40 brass listed with the rifle brass in reloading supplies, not with the pistol brass.

    Me, I frequently refer to 45 Colt as 45 Long Colt.

    As a side note, the 44-40 rifles foul much less than the 45 Colt rifles when loading them with black powder because the brass cases in 44-40 are much thinner than the brass in the 45 Colt. This thinner brass expands faster to seal the chamber better, but is also responsible for the reputation that 44-40 has among some shooters for being harder to reload as damaging cases is easier.
    Most of the Colts i have seen chambered in Winchester rifle cartridges (44-40, 38-40, 32-20) say ".44 W.C..". ".38 W.C.F.", ".32 W.C.F." (just checked my Colt Police Positive Special in 32-20; yep it says .32 W.C.F.). Now non-Winchester origin rifles almost always say 44-40, 38-40, 32-20, 25-20.
    Absent comrades (sound of breaking glass)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •