Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Upstate SC
    Posts
    346

    Default 1894 Loewe Model 1893 Spanish Mauser -Opinions?

    I picked up a Model 1893 Spanish Mauser with the Berlin '94 crest and 1894 cartouche on the stock. The receiver, bolt, floorplate, and triggerguard all match. Bore looks very good. Buttplate is a little rusty, the rest of the metal has a pretty dark patina and doesn't look to have been disassembled or cleaned in a long time. The wood has a few dings and scratches, but nothing terrible, although it appears someone tried to take off the rear barrel band with a mallet or something without loosening it enough, so there are some chatter marks on the underside of the stock in front of that band. It is missing the front sling loop, unfortunately. The cleaning rod serial does not match. No import marks.

    What are the chances of this being a Spanish-American war capture/import? The rear sight appears to be the original style, and the rifle never seems to have gone through refurbishment. I can't find a serial number on the stock, but there is an dent on the stock about an inch under the location of the serial on the receiver. I have not taken this rifle apart yet, as I don't want to mess anything up on it. Any information would be appreciated!


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8555.JPG 
Views:	35 
Size:	247.8 KB 
ID:	507806Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8567.JPG 
Views:	35 
Size:	149.2 KB 
ID:	507816Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8566.JPG 
Views:	31 
Size:	141.8 KB 
ID:	507815Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8565.JPG 
Views:	27 
Size:	139.3 KB 
ID:	507814Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8564.JPG 
Views:	28 
Size:	144.5 KB 
ID:	507813Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8562.JPG 
Views:	29 
Size:	182.8 KB 
ID:	507812Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8561.JPG 
Views:	33 
Size:	129.9 KB 
ID:	507811Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8560.JPG 
Views:	28 
Size:	113.2 KB 
ID:	507810Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8559.JPG 
Views:	29 
Size:	126.4 KB 
ID:	507809Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8558.JPG 
Views:	43 
Size:	112.6 KB 
ID:	507808Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8557.JPG 
Views:	31 
Size:	155.0 KB 
ID:	507807
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_8569.JPG  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Upstate SC
    Posts
    346

    Default more photos

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8572.JPG 
Views:	23 
Size:	159.7 KB 
ID:	507829Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8574.JPG 
Views:	23 
Size:	225.0 KB 
ID:	507831Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8573.JPG 
Views:	20 
Size:	195.2 KB 
ID:	507830Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8571.JPG 
Views:	31 
Size:	142.4 KB 
ID:	507828Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8570.JPG 
Views:	22 
Size:	191.1 KB 
ID:	507827

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    1894 + Original rear sight + no import marks generally indicates SAW capture.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Upstate SC
    Posts
    346

    Default

    Thanks! I assume this would have probably been one of the Bannerman's rifles? According to MMOTW, Bannerman's acquired rifles from both Cuba and the Philippines, to the tune of some 20,000 from Cuba alone. If only one were able to walk into a gun store on Broadway in New York and walk out with a rifle in this day and age...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    There is a slight chance it might have been an individual soldier's bringback but most likely it was a Bannerman gun. No way to know for sure.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Many if not most of the Mausers in Cuba during the S/A war were returned to Spain. Close to ALL of these were purchased by Sam Cummings and returned to the US in the early 60's. None of these were import marked and as I recall, for some reason Spain seemed to have stored them and they did not recieve sight updates...

    Therefore it is most likely that Spam/Am war Mausers returned to the US in the 1960's rather than in 1900...

    OTOH, many captured rifles were sold at auction by the US army after the war but of these most were unsold and it seems ended up back in central America ......

    Jack

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mman View Post
    Many if not most of the Mausers in Cuba during the S/A war were returned to Spain. Close to ALL of these were purchased by Sam Cummings and returned to the US in the early 60's. None of these were import marked and as I recall, for some reason Spain seemed to have stored them and they did not recieve sight updates...

    Therefore it is most likely that Spam/Am war Mausers returned to the US in the 1960's rather than in 1900...

    OTOH, many captured rifles were sold at auction by the US army after the war but of these most were unsold and it seems ended up back in central America ......

    Jack
    What you are saying about the sights not being changed and most rifles ending up in Central America goes against the usual common knowledge. Do you have anything to support what you say?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    What you are saying about the sights not being changed and most rifles ending up in Central America goes against the usual common knowledge. Do you have anything to support what you say?
    Don't Know about your common knowledge? This is actually old news. it was my initial opinion maybe 15 years ago that the changed sights on M1893 Spanish Mausers would be a means of ID'ing a spam/am capture vs a later import. The fact is that I/we just don't see the "spitzer" sights on 93 Spanish as we do on the 95 Chileans and 93 turks.

    The deal with Bannermans is rather obscure but we found documents suggesting that the Army, wishing to provide weapons to rebels opposing those against our interest in the ditch accross Panama, "gave"/sold the Cuban captured Spanish rifles in a paper shuffel for cover. While a few rifles were sold in the US, most seem to have just disappeared,,,,
    went south.... Hard to prove as it was a secret 100+ years ago....

    The bulk of the Spanish rifles in Cuba went back to Spain, transport paid for by the US. Again, I/we found the surrender terms. We also found the order of battle in Cuba which suggested that the majority of the total Spanish Mauser rifles purchased were in Cuba in 1899/1900. Even the M1891, standard and trials, rifles went to Cuba as evidenced by those listed in US capture records.

    I have no idea where my documents are but I wrote on these things 8-12 years ago, maybe you can find some past(far) threads.....?

    Jack

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    Jack,

    Strange, my experience is different. I commonly see Interarms imports with the new rear sight and rarely see the captured rifles with the old rear sight. That has happened often enough that I consider the old rear sight to be a strong indicator of a captured rifle.

    Perhaps John Wall will enlighten us.

    Regards,
    Bill
    Last edited by geladen; 02-17-2012 at 12:54 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Exactly how do you tell an interarms(pre-1968, the bulk of Spanish rifles)import and a captured rifle?

    As I recall, my experience was that new Oviedo made rifles usually had the new sight. It was rare to find a German made M93 Spanish with new sight unless an obvious complete rebuild.

    Most of the German made rifles(which would have come back from Cuba) seem to have been stored and no longer issued?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mman View Post
    Exactly how do you tell an interarms(pre-1968, the bulk of Spanish rifles)import and a captured rifle?

    As I recall, my experience was that new Oviedo made rifles usually had the new sight. It was rare to find a German made M93 Spanish with new sight unless an obvious complete rebuild.

    Most of the German made rifles(which would have come back from Cuba) seem to have been stored and no longer issued?
    If the date is post 1898, or the sight is the new type, or 7mm is marked on the barrel, then I think it is an Interarms import.

    It the date is pre 1899, and the sight is the old type, and there is no 7mm on the barrel, then I think it is likely a Spanish-American War capture.

    You say "It was rare to find a German made M93 Spanish with new sight unless an obvious complete rebuild". I would agree with that because I think by the time Interarms imported guns from Spain in the 1960s, all the M1893 rifles had been rebuilt or converted to other models. I see no reason to think German made M1893 rifles sat in storage, especially during the SCW.
    Mausers, Only Mausers, page 5, post 216 is an example of an 1899 Oviedo Interarms import.
    Mausers, Only Mausers, page 7, post 305 is an example of an 1896 Loewe SAW capture.
    Mausers, Only Mausers, page 8, post 340 is an example of an 1894 Loewe Navy SAW capture.
    Gunbroker closed auction #263715139 is an example of a Loewe Interarms import with the new sight.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by geladen View Post
    If the date is post 1898, or the sight is the new type, or 7mm is marked on the barrel, then I think it is an Interarms import.

    It the date is pre 1899, and the sight is the old type, and there is no 7mm on the barrel, then I think it is likely a Spanish-American War capture.

    You say "It was rare to find a German made M93 Spanish with new sight unless an obvious complete rebuild". I would agree with that because I think by the time Interarms imported guns from Spain in the 1960s, all the M1893 rifles had been rebuilt or converted to other models. I see no reason to think German made M1893 rifles sat in storage, especially during the SCW.
    Mausers, Only Mausers, page 5, post 216 is an example of an 1899 Oviedo Interarms import.
    Mausers, Only Mausers, page 7, post 305 is an example of an 1896 Loewe SAW capture.
    Mausers, Only Mausers, page 8, post 340 is an example of an 1894 Loewe Navy SAW capture.
    Gunbroker closed auction #263715139 is an example of a Loewe Interarms import with the new sight.
    Your post "305'" above is typical of a rifle imported by interarms. I've seen several like it confirmed to have come from Spain via Sam Cummings in late 1950's. Rifles from Noel Schott collection etc.

    I like you once though sights were good clue but changed my mind. We just don't know? Same with the Naval rifle, post 340, we just don't know?

    Not to blow my own horn, but I along will John Wall developed much of the Spanish Mauser data quoted. I remember documenting our first finds of the DWM MOD MAUSER w/Ma Spanish cartouched stock and then connecting them to the Ma series M93's...(see p. 298 Ball 3rd edit)

    Again, we just don't know for sure. Several of these un-modified rifles were traced to 1950-60's imports rather than 1900 Cuba. I have very little doubt that they were mostly in Cuba/1899, but you can't know if they came to US in 1900 or 1959.

    See p, 298,299 of Ball 3rd edition for examples of my old examples, As I recall some traced 1950's imports had modified sights, some didn't

    Jack

    PS John Wall, my friend. I never got my 4th edition of Ball. I'd like to see what I might have said....:-)
    Last edited by mman; 02-17-2012 at 12:57 AM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    "305" has no 7mm on the barrel. That's not proof of SAW capture but, as stated, it is an indication to me.
    "216" has 7mm on the barrel.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mman View Post
    Again, we just don't know for sure. Several of these un-modified rifles were traced to 1950-60's imports rather than 1900 Cuba. I have very little doubt that they were mostly in Cuba/1899, but you can't know if they came to US in 1900 or 1959.

    Jack
    I have never said we can know for sure (see posts #3 and #5 in this thread). I just said what I consider to be likely. The thought of a quantity of German M1893 rifles sitting untouched through the Spanish Civil War seems highly unlikely to me. I've learned a lot from John Wall and am happy to change my opinions when given enough evidence.

    Certainly I do not know what percentage of German M1893 rifles in Spanish hands had the old rear sight replaced with the new rear sight (and what percentage was never changed). All I really know for sure is that a rifle with the new sight is not a SAW capture.

    Bill

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Hey I'll even agree, it might be an "indication". But not proof. :-)

    Again, I think it was me back before any of this stuff was published who first guessed that sights might indicate Spam/Am use. As I talked to older long time collectors(the bulk of whose collections were mostly from early 1950's/60's imports) that I was maybe reinventing the wheel. They were aware, at least some of them, of things that just never had been published. I was like learning all over again. OTOH, many of them just didn't know what they had.....

    But alas, as time went on I discovered that my theory on sights was just not that definative.

    I recall giving Noel an update on Boer rifles. He called back and said, WOW, I have 4-5 Boer Mausers that I had thought were just generic Spanish M93's. He thought only OVS were Boer, unaware of the ZAR rifles at all at the time.

    I've been hunbled all too often, finding that "common knowledge" was neither common or even knowledge in some cases.

    Jack
    Last edited by mman; 02-17-2012 at 01:16 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    San Antonio
    Posts
    7,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mman View Post
    Hey I'll even agree, it might be an "indication". But not proof. :-)

    Jack
    I'm happy with that. :-)

    Bill

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Outer Mongolia
    Posts
    5,948

    Default

    Great to see you on the Forum again Jack! Been a long time Bud!

    ALWAYS a pleasure Jack. Hope the world has been treating you right!???

    Warmest regards,

    John

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Thanks John, guys. Don't know how long or how much I'll be here, I'm having the carb. rebuilt on the airplane and open cockpit flying isn't my cup in winter...But it's nice to see old friends. So until some warmth comes back, I'll lurk a bit and comment some. BTW, I do not have a single Mauser to my name....Still looking for that M1892 Spanish though....

    Jack

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    West Virginia
    Posts
    466

    Default

    Back to the thread,

    The rifle at the top along with the other two examples noted, based on features and especially the condition, these are IMO rifles that reflect what I'd expect to represent Cuba Spam/Am capture or surrender items....But again we can't tell for sure.

    Back to sights, RB vs spitzer. Can we learn anything?

    Spanish rifles- seem to be problematic?

    Argentine- They seem to have been very efficient. Few examples seem to have original RB sights

    Chilean- Same as Argentine

    Turkey- Problematic, I've seen both on M1890'a and 93's. Original examples in 7.65mm are so scarce that it's hard to say.

    Germany- Talk about efficient! The only example of a 7.92mm German Mauser with the original RB Lange sight That I've had in my hands was my M1895(88/97) trials rifle. I was always looking for an original RB "200M" Gew98 Lange sight plus an original early bolt. It was my hope to be able to restore My 1898 date Oberndorf Gew98 trial rifle to it's original configuration. It had suffered a typical WW1 rebuild with depot matching replaced parts but because my collection was designed to show the "mechanical" evolution of the Mauser Oberndorf Military rifle 1871-1900, I always hoped for an original configuration early Gew98....

    I did find what I thought was an original 200m sight and was quite excited but when I compared it to the 88/97 vs a standard 400m spitzer lange, I found it registered to the same heigth as the 400m spitzer lange . We(John W., JPS etc) talked about it and as I recall thought that these sights might have been provided to update rifles in German SW Africa. I talked to people who had what seemed to be original GSW African rifles, usually 1900-01 Spandau or like, and they had 200m sights that by rough measurment seemed to be spitzer rather than RB.

    Maybe JPS or others can comment? I've lost my records/measuremrnts and no longer have the 88/97 but the comparison of any 200m marked sight vs a 400m will tell the tale. The heigth of the 88/97 sight vs the spitzer sight was VERY much higher.....FWIW

    BTW, the M1895(88/97) went bact to a collector in Germany and the nosecap/bayonet lug has been fully restored...

    Jack

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Location
    Outer Mongolia
    Posts
    5,948

    Default

    Wish I could help you on this one Jack, but the closest I've ever come is my 1901 dated Danzig and like all of the rest, it has the original sight base with the replacement sight that won't adjust lower than 400 meters.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Danzig 1901 Full Length w S98.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	117.3 KB 
ID:	515344

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1901 Danzig - rear sight base R1.JPG 
Views:	11 
Size:	276.8 KB 
ID:	515343

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1901 Danzig - Receiver markings R1.JPG 
Views:	23 
Size:	213.1 KB 
ID:	515342

    However,somewhere out there????

    The good news is that years ago, more than I would care to mention, I paid $ 75 for this rifle.

    As for the Spanish 92....... ;>)

    Warmest regards,

    John

    PS - We'll enjoy your company as long as you choose to stick around!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •