Gunboards Forums banner

1894 Loewe Model 1893 Spanish Mauser -Opinions?

4K views 19 replies 4 participants last post by  JPS 
#1 ·
I picked up a Model 1893 Spanish Mauser with the Berlin '94 crest and 1894 cartouche on the stock. The receiver, bolt, floorplate, and triggerguard all match. Bore looks very good. Buttplate is a little rusty, the rest of the metal has a pretty dark patina and doesn't look to have been disassembled or cleaned in a long time. The wood has a few dings and scratches, but nothing terrible, although it appears someone tried to take off the rear barrel band with a mallet or something without loosening it enough, so there are some chatter marks on the underside of the stock in front of that band. It is missing the front sling loop, unfortunately. The cleaning rod serial does not match. No import marks.

What are the chances of this being a Spanish-American war capture/import? The rear sight appears to be the original style, and the rifle never seems to have gone through refurbishment. I can't find a serial number on the stock, but there is an dent on the stock about an inch under the location of the serial on the receiver. I have not taken this rifle apart yet, as I don't want to mess anything up on it. Any information would be appreciated!


 

Attachments

See less See more
13
#4 ·
Thanks! I assume this would have probably been one of the Bannerman's rifles? According to MMOTW, Bannerman's acquired rifles from both Cuba and the Philippines, to the tune of some 20,000 from Cuba alone. If only one were able to walk into a gun store on Broadway in New York and walk out with a rifle in this day and age...
 
#5 ·
There is a slight chance it might have been an individual soldier's bringback but most likely it was a Bannerman gun. No way to know for sure.
 
#6 ·
Many if not most of the Mausers in Cuba during the S/A war were returned to Spain. Close to ALL of these were purchased by Sam Cummings and returned to the US in the early 60's. None of these were import marked and as I recall, for some reason Spain seemed to have stored them and they did not recieve sight updates...

Therefore it is most likely that Spam/Am war Mausers returned to the US in the 1960's rather than in 1900...

OTOH, many captured rifles were sold at auction by the US army after the war but of these most were unsold and it seems ended up back in central America ......

Jack
 
#7 ·
What you are saying about the sights not being changed and most rifles ending up in Central America goes against the usual common knowledge. Do you have anything to support what you say?
 
#9 · (Edited)
Jack,

Strange, my experience is different. I commonly see Interarms imports with the new rear sight and rarely see the captured rifles with the old rear sight. That has happened often enough that I consider the old rear sight to be a strong indicator of a captured rifle.

Perhaps John Wall will enlighten us.

Regards,
Bill
 
#10 ·
Exactly how do you tell an interarms(pre-1968, the bulk of Spanish rifles)import and a captured rifle?

As I recall, my experience was that new Oviedo made rifles usually had the new sight. It was rare to find a German made M93 Spanish with new sight unless an obvious complete rebuild.

Most of the German made rifles(which would have come back from Cuba) seem to have been stored and no longer issued?
 
#11 ·
If the date is post 1898, or the sight is the new type, or 7mm is marked on the barrel, then I think it is an Interarms import.

It the date is pre 1899, and the sight is the old type, and there is no 7mm on the barrel, then I think it is likely a Spanish-American War capture.

You say "It was rare to find a German made M93 Spanish with new sight unless an obvious complete rebuild". I would agree with that because I think by the time Interarms imported guns from Spain in the 1960s, all the M1893 rifles had been rebuilt or converted to other models. I see no reason to think German made M1893 rifles sat in storage, especially during the SCW.
Mausers, Only Mausers, page 5, post 216 is an example of an 1899 Oviedo Interarms import.
Mausers, Only Mausers, page 7, post 305 is an example of an 1896 Loewe SAW capture.
Mausers, Only Mausers, page 8, post 340 is an example of an 1894 Loewe Navy SAW capture.
Gunbroker closed auction #263715139 is an example of a Loewe Interarms import with the new sight.
 
#13 ·
"305" has no 7mm on the barrel. That's not proof of SAW capture but, as stated, it is an indication to me.
"216" has 7mm on the barrel.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hey I'll even agree, it might be an "indication". But not proof. :)

Again, I think it was me back before any of this stuff was published who first guessed that sights might indicate Spam/Am use. As I talked to older long time collectors(the bulk of whose collections were mostly from early 1950's/60's imports) that I was maybe reinventing the wheel. They were aware, at least some of them, of things that just never had been published. I was like learning all over again. OTOH, many of them just didn't know what they had.....

But alas, as time went on I discovered that my theory on sights was just not that definative.

I recall giving Noel an update on Boer rifles. He called back and said, WOW, I have 4-5 Boer Mausers that I had thought were just generic Spanish M93's. He thought only OVS were Boer, unaware of the ZAR rifles at all at the time.

I've been hunbled all too often, finding that "common knowledge" was neither common or even knowledge in some cases.

Jack
 
#16 ·
#18 ·
Thanks John, guys. Don't know how long or how much I'll be here, I'm having the carb. rebuilt on the airplane and open cockpit flying isn't my cup in winter...But it's nice to see old friends. So until some warmth comes back, I'll lurk a bit and comment some. BTW, I do not have a single Mauser to my name....Still looking for that M1892 Spanish though....

Jack
 
#19 ·
Back to the thread,

The rifle at the top along with the other two examples noted, based on features and especially the condition, these are IMO rifles that reflect what I'd expect to represent Cuba Spam/Am capture or surrender items....But again we can't tell for sure.

Back to sights, RB vs spitzer. Can we learn anything?

Spanish rifles- seem to be problematic?

Argentine- They seem to have been very efficient. Few examples seem to have original RB sights

Chilean- Same as Argentine

Turkey- Problematic, I've seen both on M1890'a and 93's. Original examples in 7.65mm are so scarce that it's hard to say.

Germany- Talk about efficient! The only example of a 7.92mm German Mauser with the original RB Lange sight That I've had in my hands was my M1895(88/97) trials rifle. I was always looking for an original RB "200M" Gew98 Lange sight plus an original early bolt. It was my hope to be able to restore My 1898 date Oberndorf Gew98 trial rifle to it's original configuration. It had suffered a typical WW1 rebuild with depot matching replaced parts but because my collection was designed to show the "mechanical" evolution of the Mauser Oberndorf Military rifle 1871-1900, I always hoped for an original configuration early Gew98....

I did find what I thought was an original 200m sight and was quite excited but when I compared it to the 88/97 vs a standard 400m spitzer lange, I found it registered to the same heigth as the 400m spitzer lange . We(John W., JPS etc) talked about it and as I recall thought that these sights might have been provided to update rifles in German SW Africa. I talked to people who had what seemed to be original GSW African rifles, usually 1900-01 Spandau or like, and they had 200m sights that by rough measurment seemed to be spitzer rather than RB.

Maybe JPS or others can comment? I've lost my records/measuremrnts and no longer have the 88/97 but the comparison of any 200m marked sight vs a 400m will tell the tale. The heigth of the 88/97 sight vs the spitzer sight was VERY much higher.....FWIW

BTW, the M1895(88/97) went bact to a collector in Germany and the nosecap/bayonet lug has been fully restored...

Jack
 
#20 ·
Wish I could help you on this one Jack, but the closest I've ever come is my 1901 dated Danzig and like all of the rest, it has the original sight base with the replacement sight that won't adjust lower than 400 meters.







However,somewhere out there????

The good news is that years ago, more than I would care to mention, I paid $ 75 for this rifle.

As for the Spanish 92....... ;>)

Warmest regards,

John

PS - We'll enjoy your company as long as you choose to stick around!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top